Buff or Remove 1-Handed Axes

[Quazifuji]

From what I understand, conventional DCSS wisdom says that 1-handed axes are bad. Barring Arga or an amazing randart, board axes and war axes tend to be extremely weak compared to the corresponding maces and long blades (morningstars, scimitars, demon weapons, eveningstars, double swords). Whenever I see a post asking for advice where a player is using a non-Arga one-handed axe, someone advises them to only go with two-handed axes in the future.

Is there a reason for this? Is it desirable to have a subclass of weapons in the game that's basically just a noob trap? I've seen a lot of threads with a new player asking for advice being told that training both axes and shield together was a mistake.

Assuming both that conventional wisdom is correct and that there isn't a good reason to have a subclass of weapons be so weak, I propose that either 1-handed axes be buffed to be seen as a stronger weapon choice instead of a noob, or removed from the game entirely so that new players aren't tricked into thinking that one-handed axes are a good option.

(I'm sure there are people in this board who consider either all axes or all one-handed weapons to be weak, but I feel like those arguments would at least be more controversial than ones about one-handed axes, which seem to be universally condemned).

[Shard1697]

Broad axe is the same as morningstar but has cleaving in exchange for taking 2 more skill for mindelay. Not really awful! Better than Halberds imo, which again the same strength as a morningstar, but instead of taking more skill in exchange for a special ability(reaching/cleaving), it becomes 2-handed. Which means if you want to use a 1-handed polearm, you're stuck using a trident all the way until a demon trident appears, and it's usually quite dubious to invest enchant scrolls in a halberd because you can just hold out for a glaive.

I would like demon hatchets, though.

[Siegurt]

Broad axe is the same as morningstar but has cleaving in exchange for taking 2 more skill for mindelay. Not really awful! Better than Halberds imo, which again the same strength as a morningstar, but instead of taking more skill in exchange for a special ability(reaching/cleaving), it becomes 2-handed. Which means if you want to use a 1-handed polearm, you're stuck using a trident all the way until a demon trident appears, and it's usually quite dubious to invest enchant scrolls in a halberd because you can just hold out for a glaive.

I would like demon hatchets, though.

The other problem is that broad axes are closer to eveningstars in rarity, war axes are close to morningstars in rarity, so while broad axes aren't awful, they also arent great, and are also rare.

[arandomperson12]

I feel as if broad axes are more common than evening stars, although my feeling could be wrong.

[PleasingFungus]

i think 'noob trap' is too strong. they're generally a bit weaker than 2h axes, but it's sometimes the right choice to use them, depending on apts and what equipment you've found.

there are about 11 broad axes in the average 3-rune game (per objstat), versus about one eveningstar, 0.75 executioner's axes, 0.6 double swords, etc. they're not in the same rarity class as the other classes' top-tier 1-handers at all.

[Shard1697]

would you add demon hatchets if I promised to RP as a juggalo every game I used one PF

[PleasingFungus]

Crawl actually does have a DEMON_AXE already. It's just an unrand.

Why does no one ever ask for demon rapiers?

[Siegurt]

Crawl actually does have a DEMON_AXE already. It's just an unrand.

Why does no one ever ask for demon rapiers?

Can I have a demon rapier? :p

I think it's because eveningstar and double sword are the 'slow, good one handers' and demon whip/sword are the 'fast, good one handers' axes only have the slow variety, short blades only have the fast variety (quick blades) maybe we need a 0.7 min delay higher damage short sword?

[Shard1697]

Why does no one ever ask for demon rapiers?

IDK, probably because short blades(and staves) fill noticeably different niches than the 'normal' weapon classes. Short blades are intentionally much worse at 'direct' fighting in exchange for great stab damage, staves have only 2 weapon types because they get all the enhancer staves. But axes are a lot more equatable to maces/polearms/long blades in how they're used, and all those weapons have demon types.

[Shtopit]

I wonder what Chei would think of demon rapiers. Mhm, demon cutlass... Demon Machete...

About 1h axes, I don't think they need to be removed. If you find a shield so good it's worth using even though cleave and shields are good for different situations, then I think you should be able to use an axe and a shield at the same time without being a formicid.

[Brannock]

Some "conventional Crawl wisdom" have a tendency to be outdated, or excessively angled towards new players who should be playing Mi/Gr Fi/Be and nothing else if they want the slightest hope of winning.

I frequently use broad axes on my winners (and in fact my last 3 winners all used broad axe + shield). High-tier orcs and vault guardians mean that there's a pretty solid chance of finding one in any given game. Broad axes are better than scimitars or morningstars. They obviously don't compare to eveningstars or double swords for single-target damage, but I personally place a very high value on the cleaving ability. The slightly lower base damage is easily made up for with buffs and other sources of damage.

War axes are stronger than they might seem, they have similar stats to long swords and flails.

[tabstorm]

"1h axes + shields are bad"
I thought that too then I watched dynast streak 19 nawns mostly with 0 dodging and axes + large shield

Also: Shortblades are a class of weapon that are a noob trap, as both stabbing and shortblade melee are bad.

[Shtopit]

One could say that 1h axes are good against multiple opponents while shields are good against single opponents, which means that once you have axe + shield you are good against both, instead of being supergood against single and meh against multiple like with long blades.

[and into]

Broad axes are fine weapons.

The conventional advice for a novice player rolling up a HOBe would probably be to use the axe with the highest base damage. This has nothing to do with broad axes being terrible weapons or whatever (they aren't).

[MainiacJoe]

FWIW one of my first wins was a HOAK with a vampiric war axe for crying out loud. Plus Shield of Resistance, but still!

[chequers]

Do broad axes appear later in the game than other equivalent weapons? I'm not actually sure. But if so, perhaps they could be moved a little earlier, perhaps by adding them to orc warrior kits.