Nerf elemental resistances of PC


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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 14:07

Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Current damage reduction for rF+/rF++/rF+++ is 50%/67%/80%, that makes first pip extremely important (ring of Robustness is often less valuable vs corresponding attack) while second pip does not help much and third pip is almost insignificant even vs the scariest attacks.
I suggest to change those values to 25%/50%/75%. Hopefully it will result in more interesting choices, some characters can be played without resistances (some players hate swapping), others can benefit more from having 2-3 pips instead of just 1 because benefits of second and third pips are identical to benefit of first pip.

Also I suggest to reduce rElec damage reduction (from 66% to 33%?), Electric Golem and other electrical monsters should not become trivial with rElec.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 14:46

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Or maybe rElec as another element type would've been the best scenario with the same 25%, 50%, and 75%.
And toss those rElec+ on randarts, ring etc, making more jewelry types, and gear overall.
Not to mention a proper rPois+++ or an ARPG resistance system would've been awesome. Randarts replacing those awfull ring of common protection from fire\negative\butt.
Making enemies to do damage, instead of ducktape torment fix to monsters.
Infinite space in the inventory with a proper 21-century inventory with icons, grids and stuff.

It is just a dream that would never come true.

Soooo,
just remove resistances
yeah
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 14:55

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

vergil wrote:an ARPG resistance system

get out

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 14:57

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Sar wrote:
vergil wrote:an ARPG resistance system

get out

But it's already the same thing in crawl. Instead of % we've got +, so that no one would ever know how same it is.
Well kinda. It's gimmicky, not obvious, pretending to be a roguelike system.

Unless they scroll through source, wiki, bots etc

Edit:
Replacing all the +++ with a propriate numbers would've made crawl a better game. Seriously. Stone age was a long time ago. Maybe we should stop inventing a wheel, and make a car already?
Last edited by vergil on Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:05

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

In the ARPGs I've played resistances were very important at higher difficulty levels and maxing them was a part of gameplay. In Crawl, you just need the first pip most of the time.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:14

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Sar wrote:In the ARPGs I've played resistances were very important at higher difficulty levels and maxing them was a part of gameplay. In Crawl, you just need the first pip most of the time.


Which doesn't make sense at all, in terms of diminishing difficulty.

Also,
If you've already aquired resistances from somewhere, why in the better world you would need to constantly swap it?
Doesn't that mean, if you've got rF+, rC+ you're kinda maxed already? Idk, sounds to me like it is the same thing.
Sure, you can add more tediousness and call a constant on LOS monster swapping a skillfull play. Meh. It is still tedious and dumb.

In Crawl you're still need to "max" resistances. Those rF+\rC+\rElec are those max'es, adding some more resistances on top of that.
Extended specific areas requires them same as higher difficulty levels in any ARPG.
Last edited by vergil on Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:18

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

For the record I believe the suggested change can result in less swaps when you have just a single source of rF+/rC+ because suggested 25% damage reduction is less valuable than current 50% damage reduction.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:20

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Sandman25 wrote:For the record I believe the suggested change can result in less swaps when you have just a single source of rF+/rC+ because suggested 25% damage reduction is less valuable than current 50% damage reduction.


I think people would just swap rings two times, carrying x2 amount of those jewelry.
...Or would never use them. Some lazy players may do that instead, having resistances from aux and body or insane randarts.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:22

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

@vergil: in Diablo/PoE (which are pretty much the only ARPGs I've played) you get 10% here, 20% here, with a max at 75%. Much more hassle.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:24

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

vergil wrote:I think people would just swap rings two times, carrying x2 amount of those jewelry.
...Or would never use them. Some lazy players may do that instead, having resistances from aux and body or insane randarts.

I think you cannot assume that player always faces just a single type of elemental attack. There are monsters (Orc Sorcerer, Ogre Magic to name a few) with several elemental attacks and also you can meet multiple monsters often.

Never using them is a viable option (which is a bad idea now)

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:28

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Sar wrote:@vergil: in Diablo/PoE (which are pretty much the only ARPGs I've played) you get 10% here, 20% here, with a max at 75%. Much more hassle.

Yep. But you most of the times do it once. Once you reach a certain point in a game (e.g. maps in PoE and bought some decent gear), there isn't any swapping most of the times involved.
I'd rather preffer to minimize time spend on inventory screen and play more of the game, by checking what's that shiny thing on the floor is, and if it is better - wear it until next upgrade drops. There isn't a need to swap your newfound gear and old one. Because the old one is garbage.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:31

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Can we please stop discussing other games in the thread please?

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 15:42

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

vergil wrote:Once you reach a certain point in a game

Never reached that point, got bored. The system is still much more granular and fiddly than Crawl's. Anyway, I won't post about it anymore.
Sandman25 wrote:Can we please stop discussing other games in the thread please?

Sorry! It kind of makes sense to consider how other games do that if we consider Crawl system to be bad.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 16:31

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

I don't think this would happen either, but I would prefer having all resistances stop at one pip (giving 50% reduction) as part of a broader set of changes that also involved eliminating jewelry swapping. (MR would have to be dealt with a bit differently.)

If that is too radical, just do two pips at 50 and 75 and keep jewelry seapping. Then the game would not lead people to think a third pip is all that valuable, and 50/75 is at least more intuitive than current set up.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 16:41

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Didn't it used to be 33/50/66 and then it changed to be consistent with r-?
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 18:28

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Sandman25 wrote:Current damage reduction for rF+/rF++/rF+++ is 50%/67%/80%, that makes first pip extremely important (ring of Robustness is often less valuable vs corresponding attack) while second pip does not help much and third pip is almost insignificant even vs the scariest attacks.


Base HP: 100
Effective HP against fire damage at rF+: 200 (+100 HP)
eHP at rF++: 300 (+100 HP)
eHP at rF+++: 500 (+200 HP)

Maybe look at this from another angle, with the same functional result:
Damage: 50 (2 hits to kill 100 hp), 25 (4 hits, +2), 17 (6 hits, +2), 10 (10 hits, +4)
Damage: 100 (1), 50 (2, +1), 33 (3, +1), 20 (5, +2)

It appears that the third pip is the most powerful, not "almost insignificant". Of course, you could argue that the player only needs an extra turn or two to extract themselves from a situation, not four or eight extra turns. The practical difference between an one-time instance of 17 damage and of 10 damage is not very much. And, of course, it's rare to face a single type of attack.

Despite their best intentions, however, during the parts of the game where the player will have triple pips of resistance, they will sometimes find themselves in situations where they'll take multiple blows a turn. In that case the extra reduced damage starts mattering.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 19:06

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Brannock wrote:Base HP: 100
Effective HP against fire damage at rF+: 200 (+100 HP)
eHP at rF++: 300 (+100 HP)
eHP at rF+++: 500 (+200 HP)

Maybe look at this from another angle, with the same functional result:
Damage: 50 (2 hits to kill 100 hp), 25 (4 hits, +2), 17 (6 hits, +2), 10 (10 hits, +4)
Damage: 100 (1), 50 (2, +1), 33 (3, +1), 20 (5, +2)

Counterpoint: EHP is irrelevant past the amount needed to survive through the turns required to deal with the threats onscreen and reach the point where you can press shift+5.

Put another way: The long tail doesn't matter.

The first bump is huge, because it allows you to survive through more unexpectedly high incoming damage rolls, but the second and third bumps have less incremental effect on your resultant ability to soak incoming damage long enough to deal with the threat, outside of a few notably highly damaging elemental threats like OOFs.

Translated into MMO lingo: If you're tanking a boss, you equip enough EHP that your healers can keep you up for some predetermined amount of time without too much attention, then you stop adding pointlessly large EHP and start equipping +threat or eventually +dps, because additional EHP doesn't help you to survive the damage spikes anymore.

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 22:57

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Here's what I'm hearing from this thread: Nerf Felids to the point that they have to either have Dragon Form or Ring of Flames, luck out with a randart or very very tactically use limited !resistance pots to do Zot. (1 pip being useless would be a huge nerf to the group that can only get one pip.
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 23:54

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Sandman25 wrote:Current damage reduction for rF+/rF++/rF+++ is 50%/67%/80%, that makes first pip extremely important (ring of Robustness is often less valuable vs corresponding attack) while second pip does not help much and third pip is almost insignificant even vs the scariest attacks.

Why is this bad?

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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2016, 23:59

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

I prefer how it is now. Less hoarding and swapping. It lets you choose to leave an inventory slot free without getting wasted because of it. I think it's nice.
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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 13:33

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Actually, resistances should be removed.

The problem is not that they're too good (they aren't), the problem is that they're boring af to fiddle around with and they encourage goofy mechanics like elemental damage flavors (i.e. four kinds of fire). "No, no, you see ice dragons and fire dragons are totally different because one has breath that's resisted by rf and the other has breath that's resisted by rc. You might not have both, you may have to switch rings!"

Crawl would be better if you just said, look, you can't resist lightning or cold and you get only one level of rF without a potion. Poison's too annoying without resistance? Get rid of it. It's always been a bad idea. If damage is unreasonable without resistances, rebalance it. The reasoning for removing mutation resistance was exactly right: There are good tactical methods of mitigating the effect. Same is true for elemental attacks, outside of a few silly cases that could just be adjusted to live somewhere between where they are now and where they go when you turn them off by swapping a ring.
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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 13:41

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Removing resistances would make Crawl closer to a well-designed game, but it would also make it massively more annoying to play (you encounter hundreds of element-users in an average game, do you really want to ~use tactics~ against every one of them?), would remove the fun of occasionally finding a randart with a ton of resists or, I dunno, using ?immolation.

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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 13:51

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

I think it's quite appropriate for a roguelike that depending on floor drops you may or may not resist 50% of some damage. Take this away and you make the game more boring.
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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 14:49

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

goodcoolguy wrote:Crawl would be better if you just said, look, you can't resist lightning or cold and you get only one level of rF without a potion. Poison's too annoying without resistance? Get rid of it. It's always been a bad idea. If damage is unreasonable without resistances, rebalance it. The reasoning for removing mutation resistance was exactly right: There are good tactical methods of mitigating the effect. Same is true for elemental attacks, outside of a few silly cases that could just be adjusted to live somewhere between where they are now and where they go when you turn them off by swapping a ring.

Whats the point of having elements in that case?
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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 17:22

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

In general, if the problem is the easy swap that becomes boring (oh no, another frost smth, I must swap again), I'd just make it so that swapping takes 10 turns.
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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 17:31

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Any character with significant slot restrictions can expect to face trade offs between resistances and AC/EV/SH, where most of the time you want the latter. The existence of monsters with high damage af_cold or fireballs or whatever does not generally pose a significant challenge, since by the time these guys are showing up you likely have rings that provide the shut off switches for them. It puts you in a position of either compromising numerical defenses to have these resistances all the time (suboptimal) or micromanaging resistances on an encounter-to-encounter basis. Depending on the extent of your slot limitations and how lucky you are with artifacts this can have more or less impact on a game to game basis. At least, this is the situation that exists for a pretty big chunk of the game, depending on how many runes you're doing. It's not interesting or strategic at all. It's literally "well, the red guy came onto the screen, time for resist fire."

You can talk about randomization all day long, the fact is by halfway through a game you've been spammed with so much stuff the randomness of the resistances available to you has washed out. It would be one thing if the game consistently threw these risky no-resist situations at you, but the intersection between risky and no resistance is practically nonexistent past lair.

re: "Just make it take ten turns," this is actually worse because it means you kite and stair cheez more. Resistances and elemental flavored damage is just bad. You want fire attacks and fire resistance? Fine, make the resistance rare, don't make a bunch of other elements just for the sake of it.
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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 17:34

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

To differentiate fire and cold damages better it could be made so fire damage has a chance to burn your tactical scrolls and cold damage similarly destroys potions.

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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 17:56

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Sar wrote:To differentiate fire and cold damages better it could be made so fire damage has a chance to burn your tactical scrolls and cold damage similarly destroys potions.

With infinite inventory slots!
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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 18:02

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Sar wrote:To differentiate fire and cold damages better it could be made so fire damage has a chance to burn your tactical scrolls and cold damage similarly destroys potions.

Let's not stop there. Elec damage could explode your wands and rings!
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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 18:09

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

I like the idea of elec attacks sapping wand charges.
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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 18:33

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Draining attacks could reduce the enchantment of your weapons and armour.
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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 18:49

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

they already kind of do that!
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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 19:52

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Why did I say draining? I should have said corrosion of course!
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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 22:13

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

I actually like newcorrosion, it's tactically impactful. It's not fair that acid received newcorr and fire/ice attacks didn't get anything. Acid privilege???
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Post Wednesday, 24th August 2016, 22:48

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

You could make ice attacks stop you from drinking potions for a while, and fire stop you from reading scrolls for a certain time, and electricity stop you from using evocables.
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Post Thursday, 25th August 2016, 21:13

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

I removed a bunch of off-topic stuff from this thread, and I still don't think I got it all; I left all of Sar's bad jokes here, for example, because I guess it's valid to bring back item destruction if you remove resistances, in the horrific timeline where that goes down.

Let's stay on topic and be nice to one another, thanks.

edit: only after posting this did I recognize how maybe I'm not being perfectly nice, so in the interest of full disclosure, I did in fact find Sar's jokes pretty funny.
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Post Thursday, 25th August 2016, 21:20

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

archaeo wrote:I removed a bunch of off-topic stuff from this thread, and I still don't think I got it all; I left all of Sar's bad jokes here, for example, because I guess it's valid to bring back item destruction if you remove resistances, in the horrific timeline where that goes down.

Let's stay on topic and be nice to one another, thanks.

edit: only after posting this did I recognize how maybe I'm not being perfectly nice, so in the interest of full disclosure, I did in fact find Sar's jokes pretty funny.


as if he wasn't deadly serious
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Post Thursday, 25th August 2016, 21:33

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

I actually unironically was
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Post Friday, 26th August 2016, 03:09

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

bcadren wrote:Here's what I'm hearing from this thread: Nerf Felids to the point that they have to either have Dragon Form or Ring of Flames, luck out with a randart or very very tactically use limited !resistance pots to do Zot. (1 pip being useless would be a huge nerf to the group that can only get one pip.


Felids have far too many problems that any nerf or buff could not dramatically change.
duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling


duvessa wrote:DCSS Go: jump down the nearest manhole and fully explore the sewers before you go back out

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 714

Joined: Saturday, 5th December 2015, 06:56

Post Saturday, 27th August 2016, 06:06

Re: Nerf elemental resistances of PC

Sar wrote:I actually unironically was


As a given DCSS tavern thread's post count increases, the probability of ironic suggestions becoming indistinguishable from unironic-yet-intentionally-controversial suggestions approaches 1.

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