The Tavern

it isn't like getting stuck in lichform or whatever. in batform while confused you can't drink, you can't use wands or rods, you lose all your AC and access to almost all other bonuses provided by your equipment, and have no useful attack. it's a really shitty boring miserable death sentence if you get confused near anything even remotely dangerous. lesson learned will never batform again near anything that can confuse, but this is not a threat that needs to be in the game

yesno wrote:while confused you can't drink, you can't use wands or rods, you lose all your AC and access to almost all other bonuses provided by your equipment, and have no useful attack

now imagine being a mummy

Bats are much much worse than mummies. Literally 0 AC, minimum movement speed (same as a hasted spriggan); no equipment slots except amulet. No potions, no wands, no casting...It's intended to escape melee range with melee only monsters; that's about the only use of the form. Anything else is too risky. [This coming from someone that's repeatedly attempted MakhBats].

you can not be a bat when you play a Vp, you can't not being a mummy when you play a Mu

also it boosts your EV so pray to the RNG I guess (and don't go in batform next to confusers and in Hell)

bcadren wrote:minimum movement speed (same as a hasted spriggan)

How this is bad even if confused?

Sar wrote:you can not be a bat when you play a Vp, you can't not being a mummy when you play a Mu

also it boosts your EV so pray to the RNG I guess (and don't go in batform next to confusers and in Hell)

did u read my post???

I saw you playing yesno, batform confusion is the only side effect of bat scumming with hexes and ranged weapons and thus it should stay that way, least batform gets nerfed/removed.

why would you nerf/remove batform while spriggan exists. remove spriggan first

anyway i wasn't batform scumming with hexes/ranged, i was vpgl stabber fleeing from a vaults convoker who completed his call, and he called a boggart who summoned a golden eye. i do lots of scummy degenerate luring with batform and hexes all the time and this is the first time this happened, when i wasn't doing it. so it seems kind of silly to act like this shitty mechanic is a serious counter to batform. if i had known i couldn't revert transformation i would have just used blink/haste or maybe swiftness instead.

yesno wrote:why would you nerf/remove batform while spriggan exists.

Thats why.

I think the way the OP is framed is too specific. It would be easier to argue that reverting revertable forms should always be possible, regardless of confusion. People who think necromutation is good might think this has significant balance implications, but whatever. As it stands, I think it just serves as a way to get people killed by an uncommon and unanticipated interaction. Obviously the OP would not have gone into batform if they'd known confusion would make batform unrevertable.

dynast wrote:
yesno wrote:why would you nerf/remove batform while spriggan exists.

Thats why.

well getting rid of both is fine by me but until then the fact that vp can turn into a 0 AC spriggan with no spells items potions or attacks seems like a weird thing to focus on

You can't use abilities while confused, whatever the ability. Reverting is an ability, so it shouldn't have been unexpected. But yes, at least for bats there should be some way to revert. Actually, they could just get clarity, it's not like they are terrible powerhouses.

clarity would be too much, it would mean an almost free escape from monsters that can confuse. as dynast points out batform is already very good, it doesn't need a major buff like clarity. it just shouldn't be a total death sentence if you get confused.

also i'm pretty sure you can use evokable item abilities when confused, and you can also evoke rods/wands/misc (in fact in this situation i tried to save myself by evoking fan of gales while confused in batform), so it was a surprise to me, since i haven't really played transmuters much and i don't think i'd ever gotten confused in batform before.

Shtopit wrote:You can't use abilities while confused, whatever the ability. Reverting is an ability, so it shouldn't have been unexpected. But yes, at least for bats there should be some way to revert. Actually, they could just get clarity, it's not like they are terrible powerhouses.

It's not unprecedented for abilities to be usable while confused (I believe Vitalization once was, and I *think* Renounce Religion is, though I could be wrong on that). However, if "no abilities when confused" is something people want to keep, then another option is to simply make confusion revert you to your natural form, with the same delay as if you had used the ability (obviously this would not apply to hostile polymorphs). I suppose some statueformers might not like this, but that sounds like even more of an edge case than getting confused in bat form.

It also has a nice flavor justification, for what it's worth: "You're too confused to focus on maintaining your form."

It would mean that transmuters would be extremely vulnerable to confusion. It's like a dispelling bolt. And there's the problem of flying or floating, the fact that you lose your form and the ability to immediately cast the spell again, and the defences that happily disappear. It's disproportionate to what the spell should do, so I'm against it if applied to all forms. If it applied only to bat form and necromutation, then I'd be OK with it, since it partially fills the gap left by clarity.

Hmm, it doesnt make sense that batform cannot quaff potions though, since you can read scrolls/swap amulets(therefore its not a "you cannot grasp from your inventory" issue) and you can drink blood from corpses in batform. It would make sense that you can quaff in batform, the same way a felid or spiderform does.

in batform you can also use misc evokables but not wands. doesn't really make a lot of sense but whatever

I guess something about lack of hands.

Shtopit wrote:the fact that you lose your form and the ability to immediately cast the spell again, and the defences that happily disappear.

I was actually assuming that if you quaff curing before you revert, you retain your form. The idea is that you don't get stuck in a form that can literally do nothing but move randomly while confused.

Shtopit wrote:And there's the problem of flying or floating

Hadn't thought of this, but as long as you can stop the reversion by quaffing curing, I don't think it's a problem. Getting confused while having a temporary source of flight is a problem for everyone - this just accelerates your demise a bit.

The Tavern

allow vampire to revert batform when confused

allow vampire to revert batform when confused

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Re: allow vampire to revert batform when confused