make hellions and tormentors 1s


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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 01:31

make hellions and tormentors 1s

Yeah so what if they give the same amount of XP as yaktaurs?
Damnation and Torment are two key attacks of Extended. Who casts them?
Uniques, pan lords, some 1s, hellions, and tormentors are the only casters of Damnation/Torment in Pan/Hells.
What is the point of tier-numbering but to let you quickly find the most dangerous monsters?
No tier-5/4/3/2 demons merit as much vigilance as tormentors and hellions.
It would also make Extended easier to learn for newer players.
Might as well make executioners tier 2, if only to highlight that "1" means Damnation/Torment.

Funny, I generally don't play tiles, but even for me this would have helped, considering the wiki and past forum discussions.
Last edited by HardboiledGargoyle on Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 15:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 01:42

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

you know this exists right
  Code:
mon_glyph += <monster name or symbol> : (<colour> <glyph> | <monster name>) ,
             <monster name or symbol> : <replacement>
mon_glyph -= <monster name or symbol>
        (List option)
        The mon_glyph option allows you to customise the symbol and
        colour used to display a monster.

        You can customise symbols based on monster names or their
        existing symbols. For instance, if you want to put elves on E
        and elementals on e, you can do this:

             mon_glyph += e : E
             mon_glyph += E : e

        You can specify a different symbol, or a colour, or both, in any
        order. Here are more examples:

             mon_glyph += deep elf annihilator : E lightmagenta
             mon_glyph += Xtahua : lightmagenta D
             mon_glyph += large zombie : darkgrey
             mon_glyph += small simulacrum : x

        (The left hand side of the : is case-sensitive.)

        You can also specify another monster, so that it copies the base
        symbol and colour of that monster (this is not transitive). For
        example, if you think that slime creature colours are backwards:

            mon_glyph += slime creature : merged slime creature
            mon_glyph += merged slime creature : slime creature

        You can specify symbols using their code points using the syntax
        as shown in the "feature" option. You can also use Unicode code
        points:

             mon_glyph += draconian scorcher : x6e9

        A single _ is treated as a space; if you want a real underscore,
        put a \ in front of it like this:

             mon_glyph += player ghost : \_

        You can also redefine several "pseudo" monsters, them being:

             player
             sensed monster
             {trivial,easy,tough,nasty,friendly} sensed monster
             merged slime creature

        Playable species that normally have no monster of the same name can
        also be redefined, for use with show_player_species = true.

        Monster glyph overrides can be cleared using -=, which restores
        the named monster (or all monsters of the given glyph) to its default
        appearance. Specify only the monster name or glyph for -=, not the
        replacement being removed.

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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 01:49

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

You might have a point with hellions, but tormentors? Really? Half the 3s plus sixfirhies can kill you way faster than tormentors...

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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 02:26

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

While they have powerful attacks, they are quite fragile, and are nowhere near as tough as fiends/hell sentinels.

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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 03:03

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

Tormentor is harmless ALONE; frequent tormenting with anything else (even popcorn) can prove deadly.
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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 05:25

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

UI should make it easy to see high-priority monsters. Tormentors gobble 100+ HP in 1 turn. They are high priority. Their fragility and 1v1 harmlessness are not pertinent.
duvessa wrote:You might have a point with hellions

how many demons can kill you faster than a hellion?

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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 06:22

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

First of all, can we PLEASE stop the "here's how to edit your config file to correct this UI problem" shit? If you don't think the current glyphs are a problem, fine - say that, it's a valid argument. But giving advice on how to customize the UI is completely sidestepping the problem, and an annoying distraction. OP did not say "how do *I* fix this?" OP said "I think this is unclear and should be changed."

With that out of the way: I don't think hellions and tormentors need to be 1s, I think they need to have a glyph that marks them as "fragile but have nasty special attacks." Honestly, 3 used to be that, and I think it might be better if it became that again. The other 3s are:

  • Sun demon: Buff and move to 2, or just remove - they're kind of redundant with beasts and balrugs.
  • Smoke demon: With smiting and sticky flame, I think they fit into the "fragile with nasty attacks" category pretty well. Maybe move to 4.
  • Soul eater: Nerf slightly and move to 4. Maybe make them appear in groups.
  • Neqoxec: As annoying as these are, they should stay as a 3 (or be removed). "Can give you a semi-permanent irresistible malus" is a monster you should pay attention to, even if that malus is usually harmless enough.
  • Chaos spawn: Move to 4. Nasty attacks, but normal-speed melee-only and fragile enough that you usually can kill them before they do anything particularly bad.
  • Ynoxinul: Move to 4. Fragile, and a lot less nasty than their profile suggests, since their two spells work against each other (they can't Iron Shot you if you're surrounded by harmless popcorn).

That leaves 3s with: hellion, tormentor, smoke demon, and neqoxec. I think this works well, since the category becomes "flimsy but nasty if allowed to live". Even though the first two are more dangerous, none (except possibly smoke demons) is a monster you can just ignore and focus on other targets with.

EDIT: Minmay's favorite demons, sixfirhies, could also be moved to 3.

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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 08:04

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

While we're at it move Executioners to 2.

e: oh dang you snuck that right into the bottom of the OP. Great minds HBG.
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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 08:07

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

Executioners are pretty much hasted hell beasts

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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 12:03

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

The wiki says that hell beasts have randomized stats. Do all hell beasts in one playthrough have the same stats (damage, had, speed)?
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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 14:23

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

I think both tormentors and hellions are glass cannons, and, therefore, important targets but not enough of a menace to make them into t1 demons. I can see a reworking of demon tiers, though. And, unless you are trying to run away on foot, Executioners effectively aren't that dangerous.
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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 15:29

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

"Menace" should not translate to tier, because it's a less useful distinction, IMO, at least considering how the demons are designed right now.
ion_frigate wrote:I think they need to have a glyph that marks them as "fragile but have nasty special attacks."

I doubt that this classification can be taken to its logical end, without absurdities.

Balrugs have smiting, soul eaters have Drain Life, cacodemons have malmutate, orange demons can weaken you, rust demons can corrode you, reapers can banish you, they and lorocyproca can drain your MP, ice devils may slow you down, and shadow demons can summon the other nasties, whereas executioners have none of that going for them.

Besides, what I'm asking for is a much smaller change. OP changes the tiers of only 3 demons, by 1 rank. And then you can easily tell, even from a b&w console screencap of Pan/Hell, whether and where there are potential sources torment or damnation. And tell newbies, beware 1s and &s, they have hellfire/damnation.
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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 16:27

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

More important than how to communicate a tier's mechanical contents is communicating their mechanical use- 3s and 4s are summoned by Summon Demon, so that proposal either wants kobold demonologists and orc high priests to get hellions and tormentors or to make the mighty Summon Greater Demon the only way to summon neqoxecs. The player versions also have very specific wrinkles messed up in either proposal: Summon Demon in player hands goes for more 3s than 4s with power, while Summon Greater Demon will only temporarily charm summoned 1s.

I think hellions and tormentors are fine as "focusing on something 1s have, but being otherwise frailer and simpler" for 2s- perhaps it'd make sense after demon tiers were reshaped in use as well as contents from the ground up, but this seems rather excessive for what mostly just needs adjustments. If there are any console concerns, it'd be to shuffle glyph colours so that Hellions aren't an elemental ETC_FIRE and thus confusable with balrugs or cacodemons sometimes- tormentors are already a nice and rarely-used lightmagenta.

(Every time I bring up to other devs about wanting Executioners to be scary again after the cut of victory dancing provides no excuse for bad defenses in extended, I get rebuked over how their high speeds pry open weaker character mistake-making. I still feel dissatisfied with them, Lorocyprocas, and Hell Beasts, but that's pushing the scope of this topic).
Last edited by claws on Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 16:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 18:56

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

Tzitzimimeh are stronger than executioners in all respects (except speed, but you could argue that anything of speed 10 is harmless)

claws wrote:More important than how to communicate a tier's mechanical contents is communicating their mechanical use

not sure what is the exact distinction between 'contents' and 'use'?..

claws wrote:The player versions also have very specific wrinkles messed up in either proposal: Summon Demon in player hands goes for more 3s than 4s with power

OP doesn't touch 3s or 4s (but I agree about making sixfurhys 3s)

claws wrote:while Summon Greater Demon will only temporarily charm summoned 1s.

Maybe removing 1s from Summon Greater Demon is a good idea? Temporary charm doesn't mean that much on a level-7 summoning spell when aura of abjuration is level 5, and Malign Gateway (a newer spell) has a similar but more interesting mechanic. It's not bad to let 1s stay in the nether regions of pan/hell/abyss: it's flavorful that they just won't be summoned, it's more symmetrical with the monster version, it makes sense for deep elf demonologists and Zot's monsters to be hesitant about having tormentors around, it doesn't raise the hard question of when tormentors are willing to use torment, the spell is good even without the complication of 1s, <these are reasons to tweak SGD.

Making executioners 2s would have the slight benefit of making every Major Servant a 2. This is mostly a glyph change, and if you ever brand their attacks with damnation or whatever, you can easily change it back.

(random thought: give green deaths Summon Mushrooms instead of their PA/PC/VB?)
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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 20:27

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

Was mixing in a response to ion_frigate's alternate "demote them to 3s" notes at the same time.

1s should be kept in SGD because the guaranteed place to see it is in the final level of most games on something that doesn't mind torment at all (ancient liches on Zot:5)- if tormenting allies is much of a problem we can give in about making it apply to allies (Monster refridgeration, olgreb's, corrupting pulse all were already twisted around this) or (much more likely) arrange a smarter tracer about what degree of player health versus surrounding ally health should have a given fiend not cast 1.

It's not hard to pull out e.g. Aura of Abjuration for temporarily-charmed 1s but that is still a cost of spell choice. Other concerns regarding hellions and tormentors as focused-down bits of 1s have not reallllly been addressed. I wouldn't mind executioners being 2s except for them directly outstripping hell beasts (and demoting those to 3s would weaken Geryon, which is... a bit of a shame?)- but almost any brand on an executioner is excessive. (Maybe AF_PAIN?) Power spiral is inevitable when trying to address how end-game / extended are weaker for losing character growth dynamics (yes those sections should be shorter but that's straying heavily off topic and it's duvessa talking here).

Green deaths are okay in results (poison racks up hard on clouds, and being one of the very few extended poison sources makes some not bother with rPois there to good results)- simply losing venom bolt for more poison arrow / cloud would probably be effective enough if they needed. I agree with sixfirhies moving to 3.
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Post Wednesday, 10th August 2016, 21:40

Re: make hellions and tormentors 1s

duvessa wrote:except speed and ability to kill you
turns out those are kind of important

If tzitzimimeh were three times faster then they would outclass executioners in every. single. way. So: no, it is just speed.
claws wrote:1s should be kept in SGD because the guaranteed place to see it is in the final level of most games on something that doesn't mind torment at all (ancient liches on Zot:5)

Then maybe make a Summon Legendary Demon spell, which summons a 1, and give that to liches? That would be basic SGM, weighted in favor of 1s. SGM, as-is, is more accessible (=> weaker?) than haunt, MG, SS, and SHT. (btw why were MG/SS/SHT removed from lich spell-sets?)
claws wrote:Other concerns regarding hellions and tormentors as focused-down bits of 1s have not reallllly been addressed.

Oh, sorry, I thought you were the one just throwing it out there: “hellions and tormentors are fine as "focusing on something 1s have, but being otherwise frailer and simpler" for 2s”. I mean, you’re claiming that it is somehow better if a pared-down and focused version of a “1” exists and is labeled differently… but I just don’t see how that is the case, because both require the same kind of attention from the player, even if one of them is much easier to take out.
claws wrote:almost any brand on an executioner is excessive.

Even phantasmal warrior flavor (ignore 1/2 of AC)? Make high-AC chars less impertinent…

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