I've got a box of e-cookies for any mod that wants to take the time & effort to merge the now 3 topics discussing Venom Mages and Poison Magic into a single cohesive entity ;P
I'm going to be cross-posting from the other Vm/Poison topics, here, because they all basically boil down to:
Fix VM/PM!!I'll try to keep context and make everything cohesive, but please bear with me
My primary suggestions to "fix" VM/PMVenom Mage, starting kit & power level:lethediver wrote:From: Poison Magic Brainstormeither because the schools (Poison Magic) fine or because fixing it would require greater ingenuity than has been applied to the problem thusfar.
I think you more or less nailed it there...
- Vm start is a solid one; there aren't very many enemies early on that can't be dealt with via Sting or Meph Cloud, and those early threats that can't, can all be run from, (Speed 10). Meph Cloud
is a strong spell, and while its only a level 3 spell, its also a 3 school spell. I honestly think it could be reduced to a 2 school spell and still be fine.
Around midgame you've got Venom Bolt and Poison Arrow that deal excellent damage as well. Nothing that scales the same way as FE, IE, or EE with their capstone spells (Firestorm, Glaciate, Tornado), but still respectable.
- The problem comes in, as has been outlined by others, when you start running into an increasing number of mobs with rPois or outright immunity. The other elements have tools in their respective schools to deal with their corresponding resistant monsters, not so for Poison Magic.
I believe this was an accident and was not the design intent. I also think the reason is mostly just the way the dungeon is structured, with lategame/Extended being populated primarily with undead, elementals, and demons.
- And since there isn't any problem with the background's
starting kit, I think that adds to the reason Poison Magic hasn't really been touched or overhauled. The incentive to fix it is lessened by the fact that when PM starts to fall off, you usually have access to other elements/spells, so naturally you transition into the spells that are effective. It's only when you isolate the schools (like try to play straight Venom Mage) that the issue becomes readily apparent. We can and should fix this.
Vm/PM and kitinggoodcoolguy wrote:It's instructive how consistently things balanced around kiting result in poor gameplay.
goodcoolguy wrote:From: Poison Magic Brainstorm...On the player side the answer is obviously "no." The idea of effects that don't do all their damage upfront but instead require you to wait the target out for potentially dozens of turns is ridiculous. If you think excessive luring and kiting are a problem in crawl, you cannot defend poison effects in player hands...
- The problem here, and I'll address it a bit further in a second, is that things
aren't balanced around kiting. Kiting is merely an (unfortunate) by-product of several different factors. With Vm/PM it
should be balanced around, and we can fix that part of it at least.
- Continuing with what I said above: DoTs & kiting/luring, when done with forethought and intent, instead of as a by-product, can be done and done well.
- I understand that they are seen as somewhat problematic by most players, I'll try to outline what I think makes it a problem before going into why I think Poison Magic doesn't really have that sort of issue, or barring that, why that issue with Posion Magic isn't a bad thing.
I think that the perceived kiting/luring issue is largely a result of things like damage variance/Bad RNG, poor player planning, and the unforgiving nature of permadeath. Example: Your primary killdudes is Flame Tongue and you have 5 total MP. If you don't want to have to start over completely with a new character, optimal play requires you to try to pull 1 monster at a time and take care not to run out of mana. So 1 or 2 bad rolls or another monster just outside of LoS that happens to "hear" you, and now you have no choice but to kite monsters around until you have enough mana back up for your killdudes. Unless you want to get surrounded with no means of defending yourself, this is optimal play. This is "bad" luring/kiting. It's done by necessity, not by design or intent.
Poison Magic, on the other hand, has its very nature rooted in kiting & damage over time. (I actually think this should be retooled a bit to be more in line with hexes, see my suggestions link above)
- The way I see Poison Magic in its current incarnation: instead of instantly exploding the bad guys 1 or 2 at a time before stopping to rest and then repeating like with the other elements, you would systematically pepper mobs with your DoT spells and carefully monitor the results while constantly moving, exploring, and leaving a stream of monster bodies behind you like a breadcrumb trail.
- So the there should exist 2 distinct ideas with regards to the damage/mana & risk/reward ratios:
- Direct damage spells deal all their damage on initial hit & should cost a relatively larger amount of MP because of this. Opportunity cost: more upfront power for a bigger price tag, things die faster but so do your resources
- DoT damage is metered, mitigated by regen and outside influences, and not just resistances. They should all be relatively low MP cost as a result. Opportunity cost: risk/danger is higher due to monsters taking longer to die & subsequently have more chances to retaliate or mitigate your damage & so lower price tag, monsters last longer but so do your resources
- Saying "kiting is bad" with Poison Magic would be similar to saying "I got wet when I jumped in the lake". You acknowledge and accept that you're going to get wet if you go swimming, and its a good thing. You don't expect to get wet when you're just out for a walk, but if you get unlucky and it rains while you're out... then its a bad thing. That's how I view PM & kiting.
- End result, in my head with PM as it currently sits, is that it would take a similar number of turns to deal with a similar number of mobs. The difference is the method by which the end goal is accomplished. FE, IE, EE, & AEs all explore, blast, stop & rest, back to explore. Vms DoT & kite while never stopping their exploring
Example:- FE = Blast dudes, rest a few turns to get MP to full, rinse & repeat.
Results: 7 mobs dead, ~30 Turns elapsed, stopped 5 times - Kiting would result because of a mistake, bad luck, or both & not by intent
- Vm = DoT dudes, kite, resources stay high, constantly moving.
Results: 7 mobs dead and ~35 Turns elapsed, stopped 0 times - Kiting is done intentionally as part of the skill's playstyle design
Moving On:Now with all of that said...
IF Venom Mage as a background were to be removed (or combined with Assassin/Hunter/Arcane Marksman/etc), Poison Magic should most certainly stay its own spell school. It has a niche spot, as I've outlined, and deserves to stay.
I'll not re-post or re-hash my suggestions for Vm/PM, the link is at the top of this post if anyone cares to read them. Or if a mod wants to merge threads (*hint hint*)
The gist of my suggestion is to snuggle PM up with Hexes and add more secondary effects to "cripple" your enemies like blind & slow, as opposed to just adjusting the damage/cost.
I will touch on something else that caught my attention though:
Siegurt wrote:Maybe the poison cap should raise with spell power.
Yes. 100% agree. I don't understand why there is a cap on the stacks in the first place tbh. The damage is already mitigated with resistance, regen, priests healing spells, potions, etc
A powerful venom mage would better understand which poisons to use for maximum effect on which creatures, and to make their poisons last longer and do more damage than a novice venom mage.
Sorry for kiting you peeps along with a long post, but that's the nature of the Discussion over Time game ;p