Remove Venom Mage

[KoboldLord]

Crawl currently has six conjurations-focused backgrounds, all of which are distinct in play style. However, in the case of the Venom Mage, the unique play style involves an exorbitant amount of kiting, which is a bad thing. Kiting is always going to be periodically useful, and every background is going to do it to some extent, but the venom mage is designed pretty much from the ground up to involve substantial kiting in every battle until you diversify your character, at least if you care at all about getting the most out of your early-game mp pool. Starting from D1, you Sting the hobgoblin, scoot scoot scoot, Sting it again, scoot scoot scoot, repeat. The main unique functionality of the starting is Toxic Radiance, which lets you scoot scoot scoot from multiple monsters at once, waiting for them to die as you dance around in a circle. Two other spells in the spellbook inflict confusion to let you scoot scoot scoot from farther away again, and is an effect that is available from other backgrounds besides. The last spell is a generic bolt spell that works the same as all the other bolt spells, only with kiting.

Damage over time is kind of poison's thing, so it probably isn't possible to save Venom Mage from being an all-kiting, all-the-time background. The game doesn't need an all-kiting background; there's plenty of that in literally every single other background. Nor would the removal leave any tremendous gap in background coverage; there would still be five remaining conjurations backgrounds to play with.

Once Venom Mage is out, there isn't much reason to have poison magic as a separate skill, either. Mephitic Cloud and Alistair's Intoxication can be swapped over to hexes, because they are hexes. Hexes being the magic skill you train to inflict status effects on monsters. Sting and Toxic Radiance should be purged with fire, because they have no function but to enable infinite productive kiting, and the higher-level poison direct damage spells maybe should be cut, too. If there is merit in keeping, say, Poison Arrow as a novelty from Vehumet or something, then it can be pure conjurations or conjurations/hexes. Or it can just be cut like the others, and poison can be the domain only of deity invocations.

[Sprucery]

However, in the case of the Venom Mage, the unique play style involves an exorbitant amount of kiting, which is a bad thing.

Why is it a bad thing?

[tedric]

I would miss the combos with Ignite Poison and ORT/Meph, but otherwise this is a great critique. If there's a unique and non-tedious place for poison magic I'd argue it's the way the poison status can be converted into various other effects and interactions rather than dealing direct damage. But any spells in that design space could easily be flavored as something other than poison, so there's really no need to keep the school.

[Leszczynek]

While you're at it, please remove Centaurs, the kings of kiting too.

[goodcoolguy]

It's instructive how consistently things balanced around kiting result in poor gameplay.

[le_nerd]

Also there is such a thing as "maximally poisoned" for monsters (but not for players) that encourages even more kiting, instead of killing monsters just early.

[Elitist]

Why are there races that move faster than 1.0 speed if kiting isn't an intentional gameplay style.

[Bart]

I do not think that content removal because of subjective opinion on tedium of playing VM could make the game more interesting in general or less abusable. I also believe that Poison Magic is not even the worst in the topic of kiting. At least Poison Magic lets you stack significant amount of poison before enemy engages. Compare that to sticky flame, which you have to reapply every few turns, or to Summons - in particular fast ones - or to Confusion + ranged weapon combo. Just think of how many strategies are more effective when enemies are lured instead of immediately fought. Lastly, I am also interested in your opinion on centaurs and spriggans - are they inherently broken, too?

I honestly like distinct playstyle of VM, but if there is a consensus that too much kiting is involved, I propose several mechanics/changes to selected poison spells to limit unwanted behaviour:
- DOT (damage over time) effect is interrupted by player movement (but not casting/attacking/etc).
- DOT consumes additional MP over time. Spell efficiency could additionally diminish with time, so faster killing would be encouraged.
- DOT is applied somewhat faster.
- There is no limit on DOT.
- DOT is preserved only within reduced range.
Oh, and also sticky flames could have a high chance of being extinguished if monster moves.
In other words, I propose to strongly encourage to play VM as a hybrid: either Skald-like, but using additional damage instead of self-buffs to enhance melee capabilities, or multi-elementalist, who softens enemies with poison, but uses another element to support diminishing results from poisoning. (Note that due to the number of enemies resistant to poison, Venom Mages have to hybridize anyway and the changes would just further incentivize it)

Or just leave Poison Magic at status quo and focus on food remo... reform.

[dowan]

Well, a big problem is that the DOT of poison stops being significant pretty early on, due to the low ceiling of poison you can stack on a monster. While this might make sense for blowguns and poison weapons, poison magic shouldn't have that ceiling. If that were removed, it would be more fun, more powerful, and involve a lot less kiting (All of those things are because the monsters die faster).

If that change somehow makes poison magic too good, good, because it should be really good against the stuff it works on. That's sort of what it claims to be now anyway.

[Sandman25]

Yes, Sp and Ce are broken, I don't see why VM should be removed before removing those or Poison Magic.
VM is kind of challenge background, it's the hardest magic background IMHO, especially when you refuse or cannot kite.
NaVM is fun, NaVM of Chei is double fun.

[goodcoolguy]

Why are there races that move faster than 1.0 speed if kiting isn't an intentional gameplay style.

Sometimes, things people do have poor results in spite of good intentions.

[Shard1697]

I would strongly agree that poison should not only stack up to 5 times or whatever, not only for reasons already said but also because an unspoiled player will expect it to work the same way it does for the player... aka, you can get poisoned up to any amount of your health bar(or beyond), the rate you lose HP increasing as the total amount of poisoned HP goes up. Why can't I poison a stone giant or whatever for his full HP? The game doesn't really communicate that "The [x] looks as sick as possible!" doesn't necessarily mean "fatally poisoned", which is what I first assumed, knowing that the player can have all their HP poisoned.

[dowan]

Hey, at least the game is nice enough to tell you that now... back in my day you just had to assume after the third needle didn't say "They look sicker" they must already be at max poison level. Damn whippersnappers.

[Siegurt]

Maybe the poison cap should raise with spell power.

[dynast]

Why are there races that move AT 1.0 speed if kiting isn't an intentional gameplay style.

Fixed.

[jwoodward48ss]

Kiting, as well as stairdancing, is an essential part of the game, like it or not. Just like "you don't have to fight this monster" and "come back later, after you've gained a level or two."

[lethediver]

Kiting, as well as stairdancing, is an essential part of the game, like it or not. Just like "you don't have to fight this monster" and "come back later, after you've gained a level or two."

Sad but true. There was that one hullaballoo a few months back where the greatest minds in the GDD came together to solve the problems of luring and kiting. They failed. It was like that scene in LoTR where the elven council was trying to decide what to do with the Ring, and everyone was at everyone else's throats.

[KoboldLord]

I do not think that content removal because of subjective opinion on tedium of playing VM could make the game more interesting in general or less abusable. I also believe that Poison Magic is not even the worst in the topic of kiting. At least Poison Magic lets you stack significant amount of poison before enemy engages. Compare that to sticky flame, which you have to reapply every few turns, or to Summons - in particular fast ones - or to Confusion + ranged weapon combo. Just think of how many strategies are more effective when enemies are lured instead of immediately fought.

Like I said, there's plenty of luring and kiting in the rest of the game, there's no need for a background that is built around it. Sticky Flame at least isn't until the early game is almost over, and the FE has other options that are good and that are needed. VM has nothing but DoT kiting and confusion kiting.

Lastly, I am also interested in your opinion on centaurs and spriggans - are they inherently broken, too?

Well, yes, obviously. That's really not on-topic, though.

I honestly like distinct playstyle of VM, but if there is a consensus that too much kiting is involved, I propose several mechanics/changes to selected poison spells to limit unwanted behaviour:
- DOT (damage over time) effect is interrupted by player movement (but not casting/attacking/etc).

How about applying this to Sticky Flame instead, and giving up on VM? We have six conjurations background, so why don't we fix the ones that are 10% bad and get rid of the one that is 100% bad?

- DOT consumes additional MP over time. Spell efficiency could additionally diminish with time, so faster killing would be encouraged.

Almost every conjuration spell deals more damage over time with consumption of additional mp. It's the school concept.

- DOT is applied somewhat faster.
- There is no limit on DOT.

Probably good for monster poison. Make poison a little bit scarier for players.

- DOT is preserved only within reduced range.

Yes, either way monsters should probably off-screen a Schrodinger's Potion of Curing so the player can't so easily get off-screen kills.

In other words, I propose to strongly encourage to play VM as a hybrid: either Skald-like, but using additional damage instead of self-buffs to enhance melee capabilities, or multi-elementalist, who softens enemies with poison, but uses another element to support diminishing results from poisoning. (Note that due to the number of enemies resistant to poison, Venom Mages have to hybridize anyway and the changes would just further incentivize it)

Even if every VM hybridizes into something else, the entire early game is spent kiting anything vaguely threatening all around, above and beyond what is normal for conjurations builds.

[infinitevox]

I've got a box of e-cookies for any mod that wants to take the time & effort to merge the now 3 topics discussing Venom Mages and Poison Magic into a single cohesive entity ;P

I'm going to be cross-posting from the other Vm/Poison topics, here, because they all basically boil down to: Fix VM/PM!!
I'll try to keep context and make everything cohesive, but please bear with me
My primary suggestions to "fix" VM/PM

Venom Mage, starting kit & power level:

From: Poison Magic Brainstorm
either because the schools (Poison Magic) fine or because fixing it would require greater ingenuity than has been applied to the problem thusfar.

I think you more or less nailed it there...
- Vm start is a solid one; there aren't very many enemies early on that can't be dealt with via Sting or Meph Cloud, and those early threats that can't, can all be run from, (Speed 10). Meph Cloud is a strong spell, and while its only a level 3 spell, its also a 3 school spell. I honestly think it could be reduced to a 2 school spell and still be fine.
Around midgame you've got Venom Bolt and Poison Arrow that deal excellent damage as well. Nothing that scales the same way as FE, IE, or EE with their capstone spells (Firestorm, Glaciate, Tornado), but still respectable.
- The problem comes in, as has been outlined by others, when you start running into an increasing number of mobs with rPois or outright immunity. The other elements have tools in their respective schools to deal with their corresponding resistant monsters, not so for Poison Magic. I believe this was an accident and was not the design intent. I also think the reason is mostly just the way the dungeon is structured, with lategame/Extended being populated primarily with undead, elementals, and demons.
- And since there isn't any problem with the background's starting kit, I think that adds to the reason Poison Magic hasn't really been touched or overhauled. The incentive to fix it is lessened by the fact that when PM starts to fall off, you usually have access to other elements/spells, so naturally you transition into the spells that are effective. It's only when you isolate the schools (like try to play straight Venom Mage) that the issue becomes readily apparent. We can and should fix this.

Vm/PM and kiting

It's instructive how consistently things balanced around kiting result in poor gameplay.

From: Poison Magic Brainstorm
...On the player side the answer is obviously "no." The idea of effects that don't do all their damage upfront but instead require you to wait the target out for potentially dozens of turns is ridiculous. If you think excessive luring and kiting are a problem in crawl, you cannot defend poison effects in player hands...

- The problem here, and I'll address it a bit further in a second, is that things aren't balanced around kiting. Kiting is merely an (unfortunate) by-product of several different factors. With Vm/PM it should be balanced around, and we can fix that part of it at least.
- Continuing with what I said above: DoTs & kiting/luring, when done with forethought and intent, instead of as a by-product, can be done and done well.
- I understand that they are seen as somewhat problematic by most players, I'll try to outline what I think makes it a problem before going into why I think Poison Magic doesn't really have that sort of issue, or barring that, why that issue with Posion Magic isn't a bad thing.

I think that the perceived kiting/luring issue is largely a result of things like damage variance/Bad RNG, poor player planning, and the unforgiving nature of permadeath.
Example: Your primary killdudes is Flame Tongue and you have 5 total MP. If you don't want to have to start over completely with a new character, optimal play requires you to try to pull 1 monster at a time and take care not to run out of mana. So 1 or 2 bad rolls or another monster just outside of LoS that happens to "hear" you, and now you have no choice but to kite monsters around until you have enough mana back up for your killdudes. Unless you want to get surrounded with no means of defending yourself, this is optimal play. This is "bad" luring/kiting. It's done by necessity, not by design or intent.

Poison Magic, on the other hand, has its very nature rooted in kiting & damage over time. (I actually think this should be retooled a bit to be more in line with hexes, see my suggestions link above)
- The way I see Poison Magic in its current incarnation: instead of instantly exploding the bad guys 1 or 2 at a time before stopping to rest and then repeating like with the other elements, you would systematically pepper mobs with your DoT spells and carefully monitor the results while constantly moving, exploring, and leaving a stream of monster bodies behind you like a breadcrumb trail.
- So the there should exist 2 distinct ideas with regards to the damage/mana & risk/reward ratios:

- Direct damage spells deal all their damage on initial hit & should cost a relatively larger amount of MP because of this. Opportunity cost: more upfront power for a bigger price tag, things die faster but so do your resources
- DoT damage is metered, mitigated by regen and outside influences, and not just resistances. They should all be relatively low MP cost as a result. Opportunity cost: risk/danger is higher due to monsters taking longer to die & subsequently have more chances to retaliate or mitigate your damage & so lower price tag, monsters last longer but so do your resources

- Saying "kiting is bad" with Poison Magic would be similar to saying "I got wet when I jumped in the lake". You acknowledge and accept that you're going to get wet if you go swimming, and its a good thing. You don't expect to get wet when you're just out for a walk, but if you get unlucky and it rains while you're out... then its a bad thing. That's how I view PM & kiting.
- End result, in my head with PM as it currently sits, is that it would take a similar number of turns to deal with a similar number of mobs. The difference is the method by which the end goal is accomplished. FE, IE, EE, & AEs all explore, blast, stop & rest, back to explore. Vms DoT & kite while never stopping their exploring
Example:
- FE = Blast dudes, rest a few turns to get MP to full, rinse & repeat. Results: 7 mobs dead, ~30 Turns elapsed, stopped 5 times - Kiting would result because of a mistake, bad luck, or both & not by intent
- Vm = DoT dudes, kite, resources stay high, constantly moving. Results: 7 mobs dead and ~35 Turns elapsed, stopped 0 times - Kiting is done intentionally as part of the skill's playstyle design

Moving On:
Now with all of that said... IF Venom Mage as a background were to be removed (or combined with Assassin/Hunter/Arcane Marksman/etc), Poison Magic should most certainly stay its own spell school. It has a niche spot, as I've outlined, and deserves to stay.

I'll not re-post or re-hash my suggestions for Vm/PM, the link is at the top of this post if anyone cares to read them. Or if a mod wants to merge threads (*hint hint*)
The gist of my suggestion is to snuggle PM up with Hexes and add more secondary effects to "cripple" your enemies like blind & slow, as opposed to just adjusting the damage/cost.

I will touch on something else that caught my attention though:

Maybe the poison cap should raise with spell power.

Yes. 100% agree. I don't understand why there is a cap on the stacks in the first place tbh. The damage is already mitigated with resistance, regen, priests healing spells, potions, etc
A powerful venom mage would better understand which poisons to use for maximum effect on which creatures, and to make their poisons last longer and do more damage than a novice venom mage.

Sorry for kiting you peeps along with a long post, but that's the nature of the Discussion over Time game ;p

[njvack]

FR: The more poisoned a monster is, the faster it is. (Yes, I'm kidding and know it would change poison from "not very good" to "really insanely bad.")

I'd be OK with the OP, honestly, as sad as I'd be to see poison go as a spell school. Damage-over-time isn't a super great player effect – as you've said, there's enough kiting with immediate damage spells and a whole spell school that strongly encourages it doesn't really help the game.

[Sprucery]

VM is fine, leave it alone. Just remove the poison cap on monsters (or make it raise with spellpower etc).

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Removing the poison cap and increasing the speed at which poison operates would make VM less tedious. It would also be a power boost, but that's probably fine.

[Bart]

How about applying this to Sticky Flame instead, and giving up on VM? We have six conjurations background, so why don't we fix the ones that are 10% bad and get rid of the one that is 100% bad?

Six or twenty, if they are all different, why reduce replayability by removing one of them? We have many indistinct spells, backgrounds and weapons that could be cut out in the first place, because there is no help for them, whereas Poison Magic can be improved/fixed.

There are multiple builds/characters that I never play, because I find them annoying and uninteresting, but I do not think that I would benefit from their removal in any way, while there are people who utterly enjoy them.
(Also, exaggeration does not make an argument more credible)

- DOT consumes additional MP over time. Spell efficiency could additionally diminish with time, so faster killing would be encouraged.

Almost every conjuration spell deals more damage over time with consumption of additional mp. It's the school concept.

Non-poison conjuration spells also require you to spend rounds on re-casting spells. Poison leaves your turns open for bashing/quaffing/summoning/etc. while still doing its work.

Even if every VM hybridizes into something else, the entire early game is spent kiting anything vaguely threatening all around, above and beyond what is normal for conjurations builds.

That's where I see the biggest issue. VMs lack good damage source in starting book. Venom bolt is dual school, level 5 spell, so takes a rather large amount of experience to be useful. Unfortunately it is a wasted experience, because VB doesn't kill dudes in lair, so the player instead has to branch out to handle dangerous enemies. I think this could be possibly alleviated by giving VM a (lvl 4?) summoning spell. A summon would be able to kill even poison resistant enemies and would partially discourage from kiting (just make sure the summon isn't fast!).

[dowan]

While you have a point Bart, backgrounds and races have been removed because apparently enough people found them uninteresting, so the idea of keeping things around just because some people enjoy them isn't enough to save a background or race in this game.

Not that I'm saying venom mage should be removed, I'd rather see the poison cap lifted or removed and see how that plays out, and I'd personally be fine with a DCSS with 50 different kinds of elves and dwarves anyway.