Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.


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Post Thursday, 4th August 2016, 21:23

Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.

The Crypt is one of the least frequently completed branches in the game. By the time the player discovers the Crypt entrance in the Vaults, its challenge is nonexistent. This is unfortunate, as the somewhat recent revamp has made it much more interesting and varied. As it is right now, with its position in the overall length of the main game, the branch serves merely as a piety farm for goodgods and as an extended gateway into the Tomb.

Moving the Crypt into Orc increases its relative difficulty without having to do any direct numbers adjustments. Crypt:3 is of comparable challenge with Elf:3, with more focus on physical combat and debilitating status effects, and less focus on elemental blasting and summoning. (Note that both branches have access to Torment.) Many abilities in the Crypt monster set become more relevant and tactically challenging when the player is less powerful and has fewer resources at hand.

There is a slight concern that players will misjudge how dangerous Crypt can be at the time they find Orc. The Elven Halls and the Slime Pits serve as a rough precedent for having far-more-difficult branches that are not "intended" to be explored at the time their entrances are discovered. This also gives Orc a purpose as a branch beyond "collect loot". On that topic, the treasure vaults in the Crypt are slightly more relevant if it can be accessed somewhat earlier, rather than after the player already has enough resources to win the game.

Impact on flavor and themes below. These should not be given weight in the decision whether or not to move Crypt.
Spoiler: show
  • The golden rune was forged using the vast deposits of gold in the caverns above the Tomb.
  • Orc and Elf are branches containing "societies" of humanoids: Crypt is thematically a graveyard; Tomb is the preserved remnant of a long-dead civilization.
  • Orc introduces the player to geared humanoid packs with classed skill sets. Elf and Crypt both build and add onto that gameplay concept.
  • The cavern orcs dug too deeply, and uncovered a vast underground crypt! The disturbed dead awaken.

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 00:15

Re: Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.

I think if crypt is moved to orc, I still either won't do it, or will come back to do it just as late in the game as I do now.
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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 01:42

Re: Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.

Shard1697 wrote:I think if crypt is moved to orc, I still either won't do it, or will come back to do it just as late in the game as I do now.


Maybe so. In that case the status quo remains, aside from location.

Many players don't do Elf or come back to it late in the game. I think that's fine. What I don't think is fine is if, in a hypothetical example, Elf came in the middle of Depths. It'd have long since become trivial to clear and its treasure and experience rewards mostly irrelevant. Crypt in Vaults is a similar but less extreme case.

I think having Crypt be accessible before entering Vaults gives players another option for a place to explore and gain experience before attempting a S:4. I think this is a good thing*. Especially characters who are investing in Necromancy or are following Zin, TSO, or another god that can easily deal with the enemies in there. Just like characters who are following Cheibriados, Trog, or another anti-magic build type may decide to do Elf early and gather treasure. The Lair rune branches are not loot-heavy compared to the concluding vaults in Crypt and Elf.

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 01:45

Re: Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.

how is chei antimagic
twelwe wrote:It's like Blink, but you end up drowning.

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 01:58

Re: Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.

jwoodward48ss wrote:how is chei antimagic


ab
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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 02:07

Re: Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.

I think if Crypt were to be moved to earlier in the game, I'd rather see it in late dungeon than Orc. It just seems weird to put both Crypt and Elf in Orc when both serve such similar purposes and are both done similarly late in the game.
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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 02:14

Re: Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.

jwoodward48ss wrote:how is chei antimagic


High defenses, high stats to kill in 1-3 blows, enemy position manipulation via Temporal Distortion, screen-hitting attack against a bunch of fast and fragile elves via Slouch. If you have more Dungeon Crawling Advice-type questions I'm happy to answer in that forum.

Quazifuji wrote:I think if Crypt were to be moved to earlier in the game, I'd rather see it in late dungeon than Orc. It just seems weird to put both Crypt and Elf in Orc when both serve such similar purposes and are both done similarly late in the game.


I vaguely agree. Don't the two S branches serve similar purposes, though? I think this is a good opportunity to bring Orc up alongside Lair and Vaults, too.
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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 02:22

Re: Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.

huh, until I read Quazifuji's comment, I somehow thought that you meant to rotate Elf/Crypt, the way Snake/Spider are rotated. Now I see you intend for both branches to be in Orc, simultaneously, every game.
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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 02:28

Re: Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:huh, until I read Quazifuji's comment, I somehow thought that you meant to rotate Elf/Crypt, the way Snake/Spider are rotated. Now I see you intend for both branches to be in Orc, simultaneously, every game.


I don't "intend" for anything: I'm not a developer.

Elf/Crypt roulette. An interesting idea. I'm sure this would come with a Tomb entrance at the end of Elf:3, of course.
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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 02:48

Re: Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:huh, until I read Quazifuji's comment, I somehow thought that you meant to rotate Elf/Crypt


This sounds dope as hell, IMO
take it easy

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 03:26

Re: Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.

if you take too much time in-game, elf gets replaced by crypt after the orcs complete their racial purge

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 09:21

Re: Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.

Edit: I interpreted "anti-magic" as in "melee" and wrote a huge, stupid post. Now deleted.

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 20:41

Re: Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.

Perhaps Crypt could connect as a through passage from Orc into Vaults? Either acting as a backdoor to the runelocked V entrance -- or alternately, to preserve the runelock, by increasing the depth of Crypt to 4 and giving it a rune, maybe some additional branch end layouts, and a secondary runelocked Vaults backdoor connected from say Crypt:2 or so?

This would create an alternate path to midgame that might be interesting to play through.

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Post Friday, 5th August 2016, 21:33

Re: Move the Crypt into the Orcish Mines.

Implojin wrote:Perhaps Crypt could connect as a through passage from Orc into Vaults? Either acting as a backdoor to the runelocked V entrance -- or alternately, to preserve the runelock, by increasing the depth of Crypt to 4 and giving it a rune, maybe some additional branch end layouts, and a secondary runelocked Vaults backdoor connected from say Crypt:2 or so?

This would create an alternate path to midgame that might be interesting to play through.


I think more connectivity between branches in general would be pretty interesting.
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