Passwall should be seriously turned up


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Spider Stomper

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Post Saturday, 20th August 2016, 22:17

Passwall should be seriously turned up

Recently, there was one time, fleeing and desperate in Vaults 5, when I happened across Passwall and was actually desperate enough to use it.

It didn't work, of course.

As I understand it (after having it to fool with for the first time in a long time) you can't Passwall through anything much - not stone, definitely not metal, not multiple tiles, etc. It is almost but not quite as hard to learn as Deconstruction, which provides a much more satisfying doorway that doesn't leave you in a really bad spot if you come out to find admirers waiting for you on the other side. And of course you can't use it to kill all the monsters you run across. It is, in short, a spell whose sole purpose is to trick you into trying it so you can read amnesia afterward and try to forget about it. Now I don't think the spell should just be taken out - it's an RPG classic and obviously could make for interesting tactics. Instead, in order of decreasing priority:

* The spell should, at the very least, totally not have a "that is not a passable wall" error, unless maybe you're trying to go through an obsidian statue or something. Rock, stone, crystal, metal, transparent crystal, all should pass. I would say even the indestructible walls near the Orb should be passable; it's not really harmful to the game to let that happen.

* I think it would also be nice to have power levels of the spell that determine how far you can go, so that if you have 4 #'s of power in it you can go through four tiles, etc. (I'm not altogether sure it doesn't have that, as you can guess, I don't use it much). It should be able to go something like 8 to 10 squares at full power - a middling character ought to be able to seriously prospect for new areas in the Orcish Mines and such by casting it here and there.

* If you try to pass a wall that is too thick, you should get a line of generic wall characters on your map (like from magic mapping) to permanently track that logical deduction for later as you explore the level. (If the wall has some other kind of obstacle on the far end, you should get a "there's something on the other side" and the right number of wall characters before it)

If you do all this... I probably won't take the spell. But I *might* take it, if I'm following Sif Muna with free amnesia or having really crappy luck with spell books (which seems to happen surprisingly often). Which is better than the current situation.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 20th August 2016, 22:25

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

Chicken wrote:It is almost but not quite as hard to learn as Deconstruction


Passwall is level 2, LRD is level 5...
take it easy

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Post Saturday, 20th August 2016, 22:26

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

Chicken wrote:Recently, there was one time, fleeing and desperate in Vaults 5, when I happened across Passwall and was actually desperate enough to use it.

It didn't work, of course.

As I understand it (after having it to fool with for the first time in a long time) you can't Passwall through anything much - not stone, definitely not metal, not multiple tiles, etc. It is almost but not quite as hard to learn as Deconstruction, which provides a much more satisfying doorway that doesn't leave you in a really bad spot if you come out to find admirers waiting for you on the other side. And of course you can't use it to kill all the monsters you run across. It is, in short, a spell whose sole purpose is to trick you into trying it so you can read amnesia afterward and try to forget about it. Now I don't think the spell should just be taken out - it's an RPG classic and obviously could make for interesting tactics. Instead, in order of decreasing priority:

* The spell should, at the very least, totally not have a "that is not a passable wall" error, unless maybe you're trying to go through an obsidian statue or something. Rock, stone, crystal, metal, transparent crystal, all should pass. I would say even the indestructible walls near the Orb should be passable; it's not really harmful to the game to let that happen.

* I think it would also be nice to have power levels of the spell that determine how far you can go, so that if you have 4 #'s of power in it you can go through four tiles, etc. (I'm not altogether sure it doesn't have that, as you can guess, I don't use it much). It should be able to go something like 8 to 10 squares at full power - a middling character ought to be able to seriously prospect for new areas in the Orcish Mines and such by casting it here and there.

* If you try to pass a wall that is too thick, you should get a line of generic wall characters on your map (like from magic mapping) to permanently track that logical deduction for later as you explore the level. (If the wall has some other kind of obstacle on the far end, you should get a "there's something on the other side" and the right number of wall characters before it)

If you do all this... I probably won't take the spell. But I *might* take it, if I'm following Sif Muna with free amnesia or having really crappy luck with spell books (which seems to happen surprisingly often). Which is better than the current situation.

I am not going to comment on your actual proposal, other than to say, where you *can* use it, passwall is pretty darn nice.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 20th August 2016, 22:29

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

Passwall is quite good as it is and the OP's suggestion would make it totally OP (heh). Controlled Blink is level 8 and it does not go through any walls.
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Post Saturday, 20th August 2016, 22:30

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

The suggestion about filling in the map with walls if you can't pass through it is pretty good though, IMO.
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Post Saturday, 20th August 2016, 22:34

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

Arrhythmia wrote:The suggestion about filling in the map with walls if you can't pass through it is pretty good though, IMO.

Magic mapping as a spell was removed a long time ago, I don't think a very tedious version of it is going to get implemented...
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Post Saturday, 20th August 2016, 22:37

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

Well, you *have* this "magic mapping" power ... you just can't put it on the map. I don't think that hiding things the player knows from the map is really right. As a player you want to feel the map is "on your side", part of your equipment, so any failure like that just registers as a bug in your mind.

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Post Saturday, 20th August 2016, 22:38

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

Sprucery wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:The suggestion about filling in the map with walls if you can't pass through it is pretty good though, IMO.

Magic mapping as a spell was removed a long time ago, I don't think a very tedious version of it is going to get implemented...


A) It's already in the game as is, since I can just fill in the map manually if passwall fails.
B) It's not actually similar to magic mapping. Most uses of it are for revealing vaults, and if passwall now revealed that vault, that actually means I am actively inside the vault now. It carries a very high degree of risk that regular magic mapping doesn't.
take it easy

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 20th August 2016, 22:40

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

A) But you don't know the exact thickness of the wall currently.
B) True dat.
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Post Saturday, 20th August 2016, 22:42

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

Sprucery wrote:A) But you don't know the exact thickness of the wall currently.


Fair enough. I think filling in the minimum amount of walls you could have rolled is still pretty reasonable though. Also: if you do successfully travel, fill in the squares you traveled through as walls.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 05:23

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

Chicken wrote:* The spell should, at the very least, totally not have a "that is not a passable wall" error, unless maybe you're trying to go through an obsidian statue or something. Rock, stone, crystal, metal, transparent crystal, all should pass. I would say even the indestructible walls near the Orb should be passable; it's not really harmful to the game to let that happen.

I support passing through stone/crystal/metal (which can already be destroyed by LRD/shatter), but indestructible/"unnaturally hard" walls should stay impassible. Maybe it should require better spellpower to pass through those though. Something like having stone/crystal count as 3 tiles while metal counts as 5?

* I think it would also be nice to have power levels of the spell that determine how far you can go, so that if you have 4 #'s of power in it you can go through four tiles, etc. (I'm not altogether sure it doesn't have that, as you can guess, I don't use it much). It should be able to go something like 8 to 10 squares at full power - a middling character ought to be able to seriously prospect for new areas in the Orcish Mines and such by casting it here and there.

I'm fairly sure it already does something like this. The range indicator on the I screen shows how many tiles you can currently pass through.

Dungeon Master

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 06:02

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

yes, passwall was changed to be fixed-range six months ago. (but its range was based on power even before that.)

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 07:03

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

--EE^Ashenzari is extremely easy early for passwall stabs if you know how to do it.

BUT it would be really cool if Passwall would work on Stone as well as rock at high spellpower...I don't think it's necessary for a LEVEL 2 to be that powerful, but still...
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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 14:32

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

passwall is really good for stabbing, bypassing enemies that don't see you, stuff like that. i like passwall the way it is... my only wish would be an adjustment to the targeting system that lets you choose your destination more precisely, especially at high spellpower when you have a lot of range.

i like this part of OP's proposal too:
* If you try to pass a wall that is too thick, you should get a line of generic wall characters on your map (like from magic mapping) to permanently track that logical deduction for later as you explore the level. (If the wall has some other kind of obstacle on the far end, you should get a "there's something on the other side" and the right number of wall characters before it)

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 16:37

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

How about a spell that reveals the walls in a cone emanating from you in a direction you choose (angle, distance increased by spell power) and that has a chance of bringing you into any floor revealed within the cone (chance decreased by spell power, or no?). Requires being next to a wall.
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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 17:57

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

What? People don't want to use passwall as a ghetto magic map. They just want it to mark the too-thick-to-pass walls so they remember where they are and don't try to pass through again.
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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 18:26

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

Adding a bigger, stronger, uglier version of Passwall for later levels that can pass through harder materials doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. After all, there already is blink and controlled blink, fire something and fire bolt, magic dart and Iskanderun's... The limits it poses from a level construction point of view are already present with shatter and LRD. It could be a lvl 8 spell, very good for stabbers. We could call it Gell's Cavitas.
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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 20:44

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

PleasingFungus wrote:yes, passwall was changed to be fixed-range six months ago. (but its range was based on power even before that.)

I think, personally, if i had my way, i would make distance correspond exactly with spellpower bar indicators, and perhaps allow other materials with a distance penalty, (so e.x. rock has a penalty of 0, stone, 2, metal, 4)

Also i would allow targeting, so you could travel non-cardinally.
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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 21:04

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

I think, making passwall go through stone and metal, when a lot of vaults use stone and metal with the thought in mind that stone and metal can't be passed through, is an awful idea, unless you want to go through all vaults and fix them.
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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 21:31

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

Arrhythmia wrote:I think, making passwall go through stone and metal, when a lot of vaults use stone and metal with the thought in mind that stone and metal can't be passed through, is an awful idea, unless you want to go through all vaults and fix them.

Well, such walls can already be bypassed with lrd and shatter, so if they "don't work" if someone can bypass them, they are already in need of fixing...
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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 21:38

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

Siegurt wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:I think, making passwall go through stone and metal, when a lot of vaults use stone and metal with the thought in mind that stone and metal can't be passed through, is an awful idea, unless you want to go through all vaults and fix them.

Well, such walls can already be bypassed with lrd and shatter, so if they "don't work" if someone can bypass them, they are already in need of fixing...


Arrhythmia wrote:Passwall is level 2, LRD is level 5...


e: For the record, I also think LRD shouldn't destroy walls.
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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 22:08

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

I agree, mostly because I think it's really annoying to have walls blow up with LRD and make me kite enemies around to another wall I can LRD. Makes increasing spellpower feel like a double-edged sword...

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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 22:16

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

Also, passwall is a quiet spell that always works with a successful cast, LRD is a noisy spell which doesn't. This is really an apples v. oranges situation.
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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 23:02

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

Agree with "LRD shouldn't blow up walls." Would kill two birds with one stone:

a. Now only Passwall and Shatter allow you to pass through walls (along with my hypothetical level 7 or 8 "gell's cavitas" spell). Passwall doesn't work on rock/stone. Gell's Cavitas and Shatter are both high-level. It's fine to wreck vaults with an endgame spell, not with one I can get online before Lair.

b. Now LRD doesn't make walls disappear. Walls are now limitless ammo, instead of nigh-limitless ammo. This, as Shard1697 pointed out, would mean less tedium. LRD making walls blow up doesn't change much tactically, and just means that long battle-sites eventually become unusable.
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Post Sunday, 21st August 2016, 23:16

Re: Passwall should be seriously turned up

jwoodward48ss wrote:Agree with "LRD shouldn't blow up walls." Would kill two birds with one stone:

a. Now only Passwall and Shatter allow you to pass through walls (along with my hypothetical level 7 or 8 "gell's cavitas" spell). Passwall doesn't work on rock/stone. Gell's Cavitas and Shatter are both high-level. It's fine to wreck vaults with an endgame spell, not with one I can get online before Lair.

b. Now LRD doesn't make walls disappear. Walls are now limitless ammo, instead of nigh-limitless ammo. This, as Shard1697 pointed out, would mean less tedium. LRD making walls blow up doesn't change much tactically, and just means that long battle-sites eventually become unusable.

Actually you do more damage when you blow stuff up, so this would have a larger impact than just having to change your wall target.. i think this might be a bit off topic though, maybe discussion of changes to lrd should be split..
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