merge elemental mages into one background

[andreas]

Apologies if this is old hat.

The idea is: make all the elemental casters into one background, "elementalist." Present choice of element analogous to choice of weapon for backgrounds that get such a choice. Display what is currently background description under list of elements. No gameplay difference from current arrangement after character building screens.

(Optional: make conjurer an elementalist too, using "energy" element or something.)

Reasoning: there are too many backgrounds, and too many of them are too similar in gameplay. The background choice screen (and the race choice screen, for that matter) has an overwhelming number of options, at very different levels of difference in resulting gameplay from each other. It's especially a lot to take in all at once for a new player. It would be good to consolidate similar backgrounds, especially if it does not require getting rid of meaningful gameplay choices. (I think of merging assassin into hunter as a similar idea.) It is fine if a choice after background screen affects skill distributions (already weapon skill distribution is affected in some cases, anyway).

Elementalists definitely do play differently from one another, but (usually) less so than elementalists from fighters or transmuters, etc. The choice of beginning element usually affects gameplay more than choice of weapon, but i) there does not need to be strict symmetry ii) I think the push to differentiate gameplay with different weapon types is a good one, and I hope it continues/sharpens.

[ydeve]

Elementalist backgrounds play completely differently, where Gl_mace plays just like Gl_longsword.

[Arrhythmia]

IE, FE, and AE all play super differently though. Freeze is crazy different from flame tongue is crazy different from shock. It would make more sense to merge Cj and FE

[ydeve]

Even Cj and FE are different. Sticky flame is way different from battlesphere and fulm prism.

[Siegurt]

Apologies if this is old hat.

The idea is: make all the elemental casters into one background, "elementalist." Present choice of element analogous to choice of weapon for backgrounds that get such a choice. Display what is currently background description under list of elements. No gameplay difference from current arrangement after character building screens.

(Optional: make conjurer an elementalist too, using "energy" element or something.)

Reasoning: there are too many backgrounds, and too many of them are too similar in gameplay. The background choice screen (and the race choice screen, for that matter) has an overwhelming number of options, at very different levels of difference in resulting gameplay from each other. It's especially a lot to take in all at once for a new player. It would be good to consolidate similar backgrounds, especially if it does not require getting rid of meaningful gameplay choices. (I think of merging assassin into hunter as a similar idea.) It is fine if a choice after background screen affects skill distributions (already weapon skill distribution is affected in some cases, anyway).

Elementalists definitely do play differently from one another, but (usually) less so than elementalists from fighters or transmuters, etc. The choice of beginning element usually affects gameplay more than choice of weapon, but i) there does not need to be strict symmetry ii) I think the push to differentiate gameplay with different weapon types is a good one, and I hope it continues/sharpens.

So in a nutshell, your proposal is "add an extra keypress to select one of the 'elementalist' backgrounds"?

I mean not for nothing, but they are already grouped off inder the "mage" heading, why do we need to subgroup that particular set of book starts? other than thematically, those backgrounds are no more similar to each other than they are to necromancer or venom mage or wizard...

[andreas]

So in a nutshell, your proposal is "add an extra keypress to select one of the 'elementalist' backgrounds"?

Yes. I am thinking about how gui's organize menus in general. Imagine hitting alt-F in your browser and seeing 27 options. It is way too many. Even if the power users complain about the extra keypress because they already know exactly what they want, it is a bad design if the browser is to be used by more casual users too.

those backgrounds are no more similar to each other than they are to necromancer or venom mage or wizard...

I was thinking of VM as an elemental background, actually.

I did agree that they play differently. But I disagree that FE is no more similar to AE than to Wz. FE AE IE VM EE (on the assumption you play them thematically) have an important overarching similarity: they all primarily kill enemies by turning mana into elemental damage, for the most part by casting direct damage spells. Not for nothing have people complained about overlap/redundancy between these spell schools. (And I would guess that the vast majority of FE games (etc.) are played thematically in this way---whether or not it is the "optimal" way to develop FE.)

[dynast]

its more welcoming to casual users to be able to see all their viable mage backgrounds after picking a race.

[phloomp]

I'm in favor of this just so wizard would have the same starting stats as the other mages. Obviously this is not the only way to accomplish that.

[duvessa]

FE AE IE VM EE (on the assumption you play them thematically) have an important overarching similarity: they all primarily kill enemies by turning mana into elemental damage, for the most part by casting direct damage spells.

That's also how Wz kills enemies...

[Hurkyl]

Yes. I am thinking about how gui's organize menus in general. Imagine hitting alt-F in your browser and seeing 27 options. It is way too many. Even if the power users complain about the extra keypress because they already know exactly what they want, it is a bad design if te browser is to be used by more casual users too.

GUIs have dropdown menus because they contain interactions that are incidental to the primary activity of the application, and they are styled to conform to user expectations from menus and to stay out of the way of the application's primary activity.

When the background selection screen appears in crawl, selecting a background is the primary activity of the application, the user has no prior expectations on its appearance, and it has the application's full display available for presentation.

[andreas]

GUIs have dropdown menus because they contain interactions that are incidental to the primary activity of the application, and they are styled to conform to user expectations from menus and to stay out of the way of the application's primary activity.

When the background selection screen appears in crawl, selecting a background is the primary activity of the application, the user has no prior expectations on its appearance, and it has the application's full display available for presentation.

It was incidental to my example that it used a dropdown menu. Last night I installed an operating system. The console-based installer walked me through the process bit by bit, asking me to decide among few options at every turn. It did not ask me to simply choose a point directly out of all the possible configurations. Making these configuration choices was the primary activity of the application. The application used the full display available for the presentation. The makers of the application could reasonably expect me to be more focused and invested in what I was doing than when choosing a character in a video game, and get away with making things a bit harder.

I don't really get your point about expectations. A wizard that walks you through a setup choice by choice (what character creation does now) and dropdown menus are both pretty common GUIs and neither seems to me to break expectations.

Anyway I'm not proposing any change to the fundamental way things are set up. We already divide up the choice of starting character into several decisions. Does anyone think that this is only due to the limited space in the console screen? It seems obvious to me that it is much less overwhelming to make the three choices in series than to choose a starting character (race, background, weapon if applicable) all at once, whether or not that choice has my full attention. The proposal is to shuffle around which options are along which axis, but dividing character selection up into three choices is already done.

That's also how Wz kills enemies...

I find Wz to play significantly differently than the others. Wz isn't focused on using conjurations to quickly and directly apply damage. Wz is much harder to get by with without hybridizing. Wz asks for more attention to positioning and its spells are more geared toward utility and manipulating the enemy. The others are more geared toward directly doing damage (again, in actual players practice). I am not sure how to state the distinction precisely, but I don't really see the need. However, I am open to being convinced that the option to be a Wz should also be made post-background selection.


____
edit: well I seem to have convinced no one at all, though I still think it is a reasonable idea. I guess I will drop it.

[duvessa]

I find Wz to play significantly differently than the others. Wz isn't focused on using conjurations to quickly and directly apply damage. Wz is much harder to get by with without hybridizing.

Are we talking about the same Wz? The Wz I'm thinking of is the Wizard background in DCSS that starts with the most broken and overpowered direct damage spell in the game, and it is a conjuration. A fire one, at that.

The proposal is to shuffle around which options are along which axis, but dividing character selection up into three choices is already done.

And the devs have been trying to un-divide it into two choices for years. Pr/DK were changed (and eventually removed for other reasons). CK was split. Wz was given a single book. Cj was given a single book. Weapon choice has stayed and expanded to more backgrounds not because more of these choices are wanted, but because Crawl still likes to pretend different weapon classes make for meaningfully different characters (hence different skills) which leaves background selection in the awkward position of either excluding most weapon classes from most games (remember when Be didn't get a weapon choice?), or offering a meaningless weapon choice. The latter is the better option, which is why it's been opted for, but that doesn't mean it's a good option, it's just an indefinite bandage until weapon classes get sorted out.

[andreas]

Yes, I guessed you might say that. That's why I already replied to it.... In any case, it seems to be a moot point.

[duvessa]

Yes, I guessed you might say that. That's why I already replied to it.... In any case, it seems to be a moot point.

Is that what "in actual players practice" was supposed to mean? If you think new players usually hybridize with Wz, I'm quite certain you're wrong.

[Hurkyl]

It was incidental to my example that it used a dropdown menu. Last night I installed an operating system. The console-based installer walked me through the process bit by bit, asking me to decide among few options at every turn. It did not ask me to simply choose a point directly out of all the possible configurations.

That's because you had lots of small, independent choices to make. And it did show you all of the options you were likely to consider for each choice.

If there was ever a point where you actually had to make a choice of one out of 27 options, it would have shown you all of them. I bet it asked you to choose your country, language, and time zone. What was the interface for that?

Anyway I'm not proposing any change to the fundamental way things are set up. We already divide up the choice of starting character into several decisions. ... The proposal is to shuffle around which options are along which axis, but dividing character selection up into three choices is already done.

IMO (and it seems others' too) that's not accurate -- the way things currently are, your proposal is far closer to organizing the choice of background into a hierarchical menu, not factoring the choice into two independent choices.

[andreas]

No, I meant that players tend to play IE AE etc as "blasters." I would guess you're right that new players don't tend to hybridize with Wz. I think Wz could use some rebranding too; it's a bit of a trap to pick DEWz (or similar) when you want a blasty conjurer (one I fell into incidentally, oh so long ago) but that's a different thing.

[andreas]

If there was ever a point where you actually had to make a choice of one out of 27 options, it would have shown you all of them. I bet it asked you to choose your country, language, and time zone. What was the interface for that?

Yes, it did in this case, but luckily I don't find it requires much thought to pick my country out of even a relatively long alphabetical list. For most users, selecting country is not really a decision, let alone a meaningful or difficult one. I don't think it's true that the wizard only broke up independent choices. E.g., IIRC it asked me if I wanted to partition my drive using one of four broad strategies, and then it moved to a new screen where, depending on what I chose, it allowed me to make different other choices. Maybe it was bad design, but I am skeptical.

organizing the choice of background into a hierarchical menu

Sure.

[duvessa]

...I guess I don't really see "blastiness" as a meaningful property. Are you saying something like: cloud spells and sticky flame aren't blasty, throw frost and fireball are?

[ololoev]

IE, FE, and AE all play super differently though. Freeze is crazy different from flame tongue is crazy different from shock. It would make more sense to merge Cj and FE

In my opinion the difference is not in the way you zap, but that IE or VM have a lot of usefull stuff for hybrids while FE or Cj leans towards blaster playstyle.

[Sar]

VM have a lot of usefull stuff for hybrids

you're gonna have to explain this one. you can pretend that cure poison exists for the sake of that, if you wish so

[ololoev]

VM have a lot of usefull stuff for hybrids

you're gonna have to explain this one. you can pretend that cure poison exists for the sake of that, if you wish so

Just Meph all that orcs and tabtabtab. This is what I call "Hybrid the ololoev way". Some lair denizens are also viable targets.

[Siegurt]

VM have a lot of usefull stuff for hybrids

you're gonna have to explain this one. you can pretend that cure poison exists for the sake of that, if you wish so

Just Meph all that orcs and tabtabtab. This is what I call "Hybrid the ololoev way". Some lair denizens are also viable targets.

Also OTR+tab is also very effective (tacking on meph is even better)

In much the same way sticky flame+tab is great (made even better with conjure flame)

[dowan]

HOFE are fun to play as hybrids because of that. Conjure a flame, when the enemy walks into it apply sticky flame, then apply axe liberally.

[andreas]

...I guess I don't really see "blastiness" as a meaningful property. Are you saying something like: cloud spells and sticky flame aren't blasty, throw frost and fireball are?

The word is used with enough agreement in the dcss context that I think it must have meaning. It doesn't apply to daggers and juggernauts, does to DECj's killing everything with fire storm, etc. I'm sure that it has fuzzy boundaries, that people would disagree about specific cases, and that it is hard to point to a non-trivial defining characteristic; but those features are shared by many meaningful and useful words.

My sort of gut reaction to your list is that throw frost and fireball are blasty, conjure flame isn't (notice that you can't apply it directly to a square with an opponent), and f- and p-cloud and sticky flame are kind of in a grey area. But I'd guess that f- and p-cloud (less sure about sticky flame), b/c they are relatively high level conjurations, tend to be part of a character arc that involves a stage where play is blasty. (Restricting attention to ~3 runes.) But that's just to give an idea of what I meant, I doubt I can easily point to a general criteria that splits the groups.

[Shard1697]

Right, I would also agree that conjure flame isn't... to me 'blasty' means 'direct spell damage'. Conjure flame is really good at dealing damage, but so are summons, and you don't directly target enemies and then roll for hit/damage either either.

[lethediver]

Starting with a specific book is perhaps the most impactful choice you can make in selecting a starting class, so, I don't really approve of this change.

"It's especially a lot to take in all at once for a new player."

I, for one, was excited when I saw all the race/class options in DCSS. Little did I know how slight of a role class would play in my char's development over the long haul.

In crawl, you pretty much choose your char class when you choose your god.