AK alternative - mini-abyss portal

[njvack]

To start: I don't think AK is a bad zealot start. But I didn't think HOPr was bad, either — and after the change has been more interesting, I think. So along those lines, what if:

* AK is removed
* Lugonu is not a temple god
* Somewhere at altar depths, an Abyss portal will spawn. Entering it gives you the somewhat different Abyss you get as an AK. In particular:
** An exit will be nearby (not necessarily in LoS)
** A Lugonu temple will be in LoS
** On joining, you get enough piety to depart the Abyss

The description of the portal would be a little different from regular portals -- say, "A portal to Lugonu's enclave in the Abyss" or the like, to let people know it's not just regular Abyss.

Basically: I think going through a portal to get a taste of the Abyss god sounds more fun than "OK here's your Lugonu start."

[seren]

Will the enclave includes some risk of random spawn, being teleported around ?

(At least that would make the conversion more thrilling)

[and into]

I like AK as a starting background, but this would be a reasonable way to remove them.

[Shtopit]

It's a nice idea, but you should spawn in a relatively safe location, not to be immediately killed by a small abomination, and get a "get out of Abyss free" card, because you wouldn't have any piety to use the ability, so either free first use of the ability or Logunu kicks you out as soon as you start worshipping him ("GO TO THE LAND OF THE LIVING AND SPREAD MY CHAOS!") or a portal out spawns nearby. If Logunu kicks you out, it's better if there is no loot (so that you can't lose it because you weren't expecting it).

So, I support the proposal.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

Lugonu already is special-cased to give you a bunch of extra piety when you first join. This way, Lugonu altars in the abyss can be used to escape the abyss. (I doubt the game tells you this...)

But, maybe simpler than "mini-abyss portal" would be for Lugonu to instantly banish you to the abyss when you join? Similarly to the AK start, you'd be able to either leave immediately, or wander, but less scummy since you've played some of the early game.

[njvack]

Will the enclave includes some risk of random spawn, being teleported around ?

(At least that would make the conversion more thrilling)

I think you'd get enough grace period to walk to the altar and join and depart. 20 turns?

If you decide to blunder around in the abyss looking for the portal out, you'll encounter monsters and get teleported and stuff.

[MainiacJoe]

Lugonu already is special-cased to give you a bunch of extra piety when you first join. This way, Lugonu altars in the abyss can be used to escape the abyss. (I doubt the game tells you this...)

I did not know this, I thought it was only AK at start that got extra Lugonu piety.

[amaril]

If you are going to do this, you may as well just make Lugonu a temple god.

[duvessa]

You may as well make Lugonu a temple god already as long as AK exists.

[amaril]

Well, right now Lugonu's 'thing' is that you have to start w/ her to use her. Which is undesirable IMO because I think that in-game god choice is an interesting decision. So ultimately I think that Lugonu should just be a temple god, and there shouldn't be an AK background. The flavor stuff suggested in this thread seems needless to me.

If Lugonu presents an interesting dilemma to some early victims of banishment (note that this has never happened in my experience), altars in the abyss should remain.

[dowan]

Well, makhleb seems to be associated with hell quite a bit in the game, would it makes sense to have the player go to a mini-hell where they descend 7 levels, noticing if they take a stairway up they leave? Then they can learn about how hell works before getting to extended, right?

I just don't see the point. The AK abyss was a good way to advertise the abyss when it was new, but it's all fake. No early character can handle the abyss, and an XL 1 character who tries to explore the abyss to get a feel for it is only going to get a feel for being dead.

Notice that this is different from Jiyva, who makes slime work completely differently, giving you a free rune and treasure. If lugonu had that kind of dramatic change to the abyss, it might be worth having a special starting area.

[Siegurt]

If lugonu had that kind of dramatic change to the abyss, it might be worth having a special starting area.

But lugonu does have that dramatic of an effect on the abyss...

[Brannock]

I just completed an AK win. Starting with Lugonu from the very beginning added very little to the experience.

In general, I do not like it when characters start with gods. Not even Xom or Trog. Choosing a god is one of the most important and entertaining parts of playing a character. Evaluating which gods benefit your build (thus far) the most, are most likely to help you win, or deciding which things you're willing to trade off in order to play under a particular religion is interesting. When you start with that choice already made for you then that interesting moment in the game is eliminated entirely. Discovering the Ecumenical Temple becomes meaningless. God wrath is nasty enough that players are heavily discouraged against switching gods during the parts of the game where it matters. (I do not think it matters very much if you switch gods when you can handle wrath, as when that happens, you can handle winning the game.)

I think there is non-flavor value in having Lugonu (and Jiyva) not be in the Ecumenical Temple. These two gods hold domain over a specific branch in the game. The game communicates this by showing that they never spawn with the other gods. You must enter Slime, or find a slimy vault, to worship Jiyva. You must enter the Abyss or find an abyssal vault to worship Lugonu. They have specific mechanical interactions with these two branches.

Finally, for me portals are some of the most interesting parts of Crawl in the current incarnation, coming just above the early-mid stage of the game. They are shaped, bite-sized journeys in layouts and arrangements that you absolutely cannot encounter in the Dungeon (vaults aside). Discovering an Abyssal Portal and deciding to try for the reward of following a rare but powerful (kind of...) god is much more interesting than simply starting off with that already checked off on your character sheet.

[dowan]

If lugonu had that kind of dramatic change to the abyss, it might be worth having a special starting area.

But lugonu does have that dramatic of an effect on the abyss...

What effect does worshipping lugonu have on the abyss?

[Siegurt]

If lugonu had that kind of dramatic change to the abyss, it might be worth having a special starting area.

But lugonu does have that dramatic of an effect on the abyss...

What effect does worshipping lugonu have on the abyss?

He lets you leave instantly, at no risk, also i seem to recall that stairs/runes/exits generate more frequently if you are worshipping him, i am not sure if that is true though, or if i am misremembering.

[dowan]

His abillity to leave doesn't change the abyss any more than his other ability to go to the abyss changes the dungeon.

It's news to me if that other stuff is true. I know getting the rune makes exits generate more frequently, but I wasn't aware lugonu had any effect on the rest of abyss generation.

Of course, even if he did make stairs/exits/runes generate more often, starting in a modified abyss with a guaranteed exit doesn't exactly illustrate that meaningfully.

[MainiacJoe]

If we're going to make an Abyss portal every game to guarantee a Lugonu altar in D2-9, then what's the sense of saying it isn't a Temple god? Eithre status quo, or get rid of AK and make Lugonu a temple god. The OP suggestion is like saying, "let's get rid of just half of Lucy's flavor."