No brainers


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Snake Sneak

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Post Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 17:48

No brainers

Manual says that one of the design goals is meaningful decisions, but there are still some things that is not choices at all

No brainer #1 - do not train opposing elemental spellschools... There are few reasons to train both air and earth for example... Even if you want get deflect missiles as earth elemantalist, then it's much easier to train enchantment for it. Same with Fire conjurations ( All my Ice based conjurers learned and used sticky flame if I found a book with it, but Fire gets turned off as fast as possible) you'll train conjurations, not fire.

Solution: Powerful, Air\Earth, Fire\Ice spells?

No brainer #2 - Stick with weapon class that you choosed.... Seriously.. if I play Merfolk I'll use polearms no matter what. So what a point of having +1 aptitude for long blades, and -2 for axes? You can make them -5, it'll make almost no difference. Even with races with more even aptitudes like Minotaurs, you need super artifact to switch and crosstrain

Solution: I see none (

No Brainer #3 - Do not switch gods before you very strong to survive their wraith

solution : Make wraith Dependant on character level?

Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 18:35

Re: No brainers

#1 is not an issue. Dual-schooling has been done (Ice/Fire more than Air/Earth, I guess). The point is that dual-schooling shouldn't be the no-brainer!

#2 is somewhat problematic, but weapons can be switched (easier now that cross-training is clearly explained in the m screen). Sure, merfolk are heavily biased towards polearms. But they have to some aptitudes in swords and axes, right? And sometimes it will matter.
If we think the current state is too bad, the solution would be to cut down on weapon types.

#3 is indeed a big problem. There are further deficits with wrath, for example that you can wait it out. So it is impossible early on, but easy although very tedious later (if you're gonna do it the cheap way). This will be addressed: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... :god:wrath
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Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 19:09

Re: No brainers

Strongpoint wrote:No brainer #2 - Stick with weapon class that you choosed.... Seriously.. if I play Merfolk I'll use polearms no matter what. So what a point of having +1 aptitude for long blades, and -2 for axes? You can make them -5, it'll make almost no difference. Even with races with more even aptitudes like Minotaurs, you need super artifact to switch and crosstrain

I don't think it's that simple of a no-brainer. Yes, you're likely to stick to the weapon you start out with because you've invested xp in it and are most skilled with that type of weapon. But if you find an artefact weapon of another type, you'll probably want to check that out, and if it's got awesome properties (you're unlikely to know about the stats at low skill) you may want to switch, in which case the -2 aptitude might introduce a choice, which is the opposite of a no-brainer.

Wraths are problematic, though I wouldn't use no-brainerness as the reasoning. ;)

I agree with dpeg that the opposing elemental schools are not an issue. Like with weapons, the question of choosing comes up when you've already got skill invested and come across a good book of the opposing school.
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Bim

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Post Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 19:30

Re: No brainers

I don't really get the dual schooling one, as I do that loads! I also think that 3 is a big, big problem, as I never change gods due to wrath being a bit excessive. I'd much rather it maybe take a few points off stats,perhaps curse some things and maybe mutate you a bit.

I think the main problem seems to be that some builds are so much better than others, and the choices you make with them are going to be about the same (if you're going for winning) for instance, MdFi is going to choose Oka most of the time, same as conjurer is going to pick Vehumet. But instead of nerfing loads of stuff, I'd like to just have more viable options in terms of gods, equipment and spells. For instance I have a few friends that play crawl, and sometimes they'll just quit/die if they get a certain combo of things, or if they don't find a particular spellbook/ring or whatever.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 20:05

Re: No brainers

Bim wrote:I think the main problem seems to be that some builds are so much better than others, and the choices you make with them are going to be about the same (if you're going for winning) for instance, MdFi is going to choose Oka most of the time, same as conjurer is going to pick Vehumet.

I'd say that's partially groupthink. The MDFi is just as well served with Trog or Makhleb or Lugonu. Then there are the general gods with very broad appeal (Elyvilon, Nemelex).
Conjurers going Vehumet is more clear-cut, I agree. I never liked fixing gods to skills (Vehumet is affiliated with Con and Sum), and I hope at some point we will have a Vehumet who is good for all ranged attacks. By the way, what about Fedhas and Makhleb? Those two should befit a conjurer as well. Also Cheibriados should be an option for a pure caster.

Bim wrote:But instead of nerfing loads of stuff, I'd like to just have more viable options in terms of gods, equipment and spells. For instance I have a few friends that play crawl, and sometimes they'll just quit/die if they get a certain combo of things, or if they don't find a particular spellbook/ring or whatever.

We are nerfing something because it is too strong, not because something else is too weak. If you think that MDFi has Okawaru as the only god option, that's part of the problem.
I don't get the last sentence. What is the problem, and what are we to do? If you want many spellbooks, go Sif.

Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 20:19

Re: No brainers

The point is that dual-schooling shouldn't be the no-brainer!


But I am not so sure it still isn't. All the cross training penalty really does is delay when it becomes profitable to cross train. The wiki and the skill page make it seem like it would always be a bad trade, but in reality once the primary skill gets to the mid teens even with the huge penalty it is still more efficient to cross train. Frankly that seems a bit "spoily" to me.

Server Admin

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Post Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 23:05

Re: No brainers

<3 Merfolk with Long Blades! Polearms with a shield stink! ;)
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Bim

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Post Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 23:19

Re: No brainers

@Dpeg Although I agree that there are other good choices, it seems to make more sense to choose vehumet than others. Although you could argue that other gods have their benefits, I think you'd be hard pressed to (from a purely winning side of things) say that Vehumet isn't the best for offensive casters, and Oka isn't the best for fighters. Now maybe you have a different play style which Fedas or Makleb help with, but I just think that If I want to win with an offensive caster, its vehumet every time. That's my only issue really, that for certain classes there are certain gods which are clearly better for a straightforward play.
Saying this, I don't know how much of a bad thing it is if you take the sandbox approach that obviously no one is MAKING you take Oka or whatever, and that we shouldn't be making it needlessly difficult or complicated, I just like to see as many avenues as possible to getting the orb!
This links onto my last sentence and nerf part (sorry it wasn't clear, was working!) that there are a few certain things a win seems to hinge on, such as haste/might, amulet of the gourmand, dispel undead etc. (look for the most used spell list) Although this is fine, I'd just like to see more ways of winning (not making it easier, just more) without having to resort to the same spells and skills.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 6th January 2011, 16:49

Re: No brainers

I don't really feel like #1 and #3 are no-brainers in the sense that the design philosophy intends (though god wrath is currently problematic in other ways, as has been mentioned).

#2 I feel may be a no-brainer, but only for races that are obviously intended to use one particular type of weapon (merfolk).

Not abandoning a god if you can't survive it's wrath isn't really a no brainer any more than using a +5,+5 long sword instead of a +1,+1 long sword is.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 14th January 2011, 16:18

Re: No brainers

No brainer #2 - - Stick with weapon class that you choosed


solution: make artificial weapons better then ego weapons

stick to merfolk example, i using polearms because i know that i finally end with demon trident, at least +7 +7 vorpalized to flame, so let say that i will find nice randart mace +15, +15, now i got dilemma

so there are two solutions (player friendly vs unfriendly):
make artificial/randart weapon stronger - more weapons with large to hit/damage plus,
make ego weapons weaker - enchants capped at +7 +7, and slightly harder to enchant

Finally hero should wield artifact, not just mundane, glowing weapon.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Friday, 14th January 2011, 18:17

Re: No brainers

szanth, keep it up and banning you is going to become a no-brainer.

Be respectful of other's contributions. You have been warned several times now.

Dismissive, negative comments, especially when coupled with poor language, add nothing to the forum.

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