Assassin is a bad stabber background

[genericpseudonym]

The common advice on the forum is that assassin is really just a "gladiator + blowgun". But the fact that they start with stealth skill and a dagger fools new players into thinking they should be played as a stabber character, even though stealth is too unreliable to be used as a player's only offense.

I feel like there are two possible solutions here:

A. Embrace the "gladiator with blowgun" concept: Reduce or remove their starting stealth skill and give them a choice of weapon type like the other melee-guy starts. You would probably also have to rename them to something less sneaky-sounding. You could possibly even combine them with gladiator and have players choose between net/blowgun in addition to picking their melee weapon.

B. Make them better at stabbing: Give them a decent supply of hex needles (confusion or paralysis), possibly as a replacement for their curare, so that they have a way to stab things to death even when stealth fails.

[duvessa]

C. Remove As, let Hu start with a blowgun

[dynast]

The common advice on the forum is that assassin is really just a "gladiator + blowgun".

Bad, incoherent advice, seems legit.

But the fact that they start with stealth skill and a dagger fools new players into thinking they should be played as a stabber character, even though stealth is too unreliable to be used as a player's only offense.

As long as the game have sblades and stealth skill up to 27, players will be fooled.

B. Make them better at stabbing: Give them a decent supply of hex needles (confusion or paralysis), possibly as a replacement for their curare, so that they have a way to stab things to death even when stealth fails.

I like this idea more, i personally would be glad to see poison needles gone, instead have As start with pretty much each other type of needle and maybe take away their flavor cloak to balance that.

[Rast]

Assassin is too good of a role name to lose. I've suggested before that they start with a ring of stealth in addition to the trained stealth skill.

re: blowguns: they should be removed entirely and turn needles into into thrown darts.

[genericpseudonym]

The common advice on the forum is that assassin is really just a "gladiator + blowgun".

Bad, incoherent advice, seems legit.

Is it really that incoherent? The point is that you should play them like a gladiator: a regular non-shortblades-using melee character who starts with a small supply of "win fight" buttons in the form of nets/curare.

Assassin is too good of a role name to lose. I've suggested before that they start with a ring of stealth in addition to the trained stealth skill.

re: blowguns: they should be removed entirely and turn needles into into thrown darts.

This would have been OP in previous versions, but now that needles are weaker at low throwing skill it seems fine to let players use them as soon as they find them instead of waiting/hoping for an early blowgun.

[Shard1697]

That sounds great, actually... I agree that it wouldn't be OP now with new needles(and also it didn't prevent blowguns from being OP before) and I don't feel that making you switch your held weapon to a blowgun is ever meaningful(but it is sorta annoying), and it would also make them using the "throwing" skill make much more sense. Seems like the only reason they currently do is because they aren't enough for a whole skill by themselves.

(well, also because it would probably not be great to have a "Blowing" skill)

[and into]

Pretty big nerf to needles if you remove blowguns, as the enchantment from the launcher can be quite a big help.

[Arrhythmia]

Pretty big nerf to needles if you remove blowguns, as the enchantment from the launcher can be quite a big help.

You can just give them a small inherent, similar boost. I think a similar thing was done when ammo enchantment was removed.

[and into]

Pretty big nerf to needles if you remove blowguns, as the enchantment from the launcher can be quite a big help.

You can just give them a small inherent, similar boost. I think a similar thing was done when ammo enchantment was removed.

Sure. I don't feel strongly either way. There is an advantage in clarity ("Throwing" helps thrown stuff, not "Thrown and/or air-ejected" stuff). I don't really see blowgun removal as much of an interface improvement though. You wouldn't have to switch weapons to a blowgun and then quiver, but the menu for quivering thrown items becomes even larger and clunkier. Kind of a wash.

Anyway, to pull it around to the topic: What are the actual problems here? Lack of clarity in terms of what assassin suggests? Removing assassin and providing a blowgun + needles option under hunter background takes care of that. Lack of "stabber" background? We already have Enchanter.

Is "needle-stabbing" specifically interesting enough to merit its own background, especially when gladiators (nets) and artificers both start with strong consumables with limited use in the early game?

[dynast]

Is it really that incoherent? The point is that you should play them like a gladiator

I havent played any of my assassins the same way i played any of my gladiators.

[Sprucery]

B. Make them better at stabbing: Give them a decent supply of hex needles (confusion or paralysis), possibly as a replacement for their curare, so that they have a way to stab things to death even when stealth fails.

This would be nice imo. I play As as stealthy stabbers anyway, it's a fun background.

[dynast]

Lack of "stabber" background? We already have Enchanter.

Stop, you are killing me.

Is "needle-stabbing" specifically interesting enough to merit its own background, especially when gladiators (nets) and artificers both start with strong consumables with limited use in the early game?

Have it come to your guys head yet that assassin is a background centered on stealth?

[Rast]

(well, also because it would probably not be great to have a "Blowing" skill)

Invocations.

[ydeve]

Lack of "stabber" background? We already have Enchanter.

Stop, you are killing me.

Is "needle-stabbing" specifically interesting enough to merit its own background, especially when gladiators (nets) and artificers both start with strong consumables with limited use in the early game?

Have it come to your guys head yet that assassin is a background centered on stealth?

Perhaps you can explain how you play As different than a throwing Hu who found an early blowgun? (Hu and Gl are pretty similar as well.)

[Sprucery]

Perhaps you can explain how you play As different than a throwing Hu who found an early blowgun? (Hu and Gl are pretty similar as well.)

I don't know about dynast but personally I train more stealth and try to stab things.

[dynast]

Perhaps you can explain how you play As different than a throwing Hu who found an early blowgun?

I basically take advantage of starting with heavy stealth skill to use scale/ring mail while remaining unnoticed by most things, which reduces the odds i get killed by the first jackal pack. When i play Hu i try to meet things on the edge of the screen to get turns of advantage sniping them and when i play As i try to meet things adjacent before they notice me. I dont snipe things with blowguns because they got nerfed and i dont train throwing, if im gonna use curare i want to have as many turns to land attacks on the slowed target afterwards.

[and into]

Perhaps you can explain how you play As different than a throwing Hu who found an early blowgun? (Hu and Gl are pretty similar as well.)

I don't know about dynast but personally I train more stealth and try to stab things.

Right, but as the OP points out, assassins are a bad stabbing background. This is because relying only on stealth to get stabs is not really enough to carry a character through the game. There are a number of non-divine ways to get stabs when stealth fails: hexes, nets, wands, disabling needles, potions/evokable invis. There are already backgrounds that start with the first three means in their starting kit. Starting with evokable invisibility is too strong (imo, you can argue otherwise).

I'm not averse to buffing the assassin background a bit—e.g., give it a potion of invis and some disabling needles in addition to what it has now. (I do note positively that this would give players a way to experiment with invisibility early, without being overpowered.)

I'm just not convinced that this would be all that distinctive compared to other existing backgrounds that get strong but limited-use items to help through the early game.

[dpeg]

...as the OP points out, assassins are a bad stabbing background. This is because relying only on stealth to get stabs is not really enough to carry a character through the game.

(Emphasis mine.) I don't really have an opinion on the matter, although I like to play As, and I do it in the naive sense (stealth and stabbing). However, I wanted to say that a background is not intended to give you something that carries you through the game. Instead, it should give you something lasting long enough so that you can set up a reasonable build.

[and into]

...as the OP points out, assassins are a bad stabbing background. This is because relying only on stealth to get stabs is not really enough to carry a character through the game.

(Emphasis mine.) I don't really have an opinion on the matter, although I like to play As, and I do it in the naive sense (stealth and stabbing). However, I wanted to say that a background is not intended to give you something that carries you through the game. Instead, it should give you something lasting long enough so that you can build a reasonable build.

I agree! But the assassin has another trick besides stabbing (blowgun + poison and curare needles), without which it would be a much more challenging background. With a bit of luck, the needles and stealth carry you until you find some items or get some piety with a strong god. Stealth and stabbing alone would be much trickier, but the complaints about assassin in this thread seem to center on the fact that it doesn't rely solely on stabbing.

[Sprucery]

I'm not averse to buffing the assassin background a bit—e.g., give it a potion of invis and some disabling needles in addition to what it has now. (I do note positively that this would give players a way to experiment with invisibility early, without being overpowered.)

Great idea!

I'm just not convinced that this would be all that distinctive compared to other existing backgrounds that get strong but limited-use items to help through the early game.

I am. After all, backgrounds are starting kits anyway, this would be a distinctive starting kit.

[dynast]

but the complaints about assassin in this thread seem to center on the fact that it doesn't rely solely on stabbing.

Yes, because you are the one with the mind centered on stabbing and cant see the benefits of having high stealth other than for that.

Reminder that Fi starts with a potion of might. Does giving Hu a potion of haste makes it more distinctive too?

As dpeg pointed out, backgrounds are not suppsoed to give you something that carries through the game and As happens to be the background centered on things that are good specially(if not only) early.

[and into]

I'm aware that stealth isn't just good for stabbing, the fact that Fi starts with potion of might, and that backgrounds aren't supposed to give you something that carries through the game.

As for "having a mind centered on stabbing," I'm merely responding to the OP. The title of the thread literally is "Assassin is a bad stabber background" (emphasis mine).

[Shard1697]

It seems like the OP is saying "assassin is a bad stabber background, so it should either be changed to be better at stabbing, or lose stealth skill", while dynast is saying "it's not supposed to be a stabbing background and that's not why it has stealth". Having stealth skill is not exclusive to a "stabber" start.

[dpeg]

I like to invoke the principle of continuity once more: assuming that giving a background stealth is a good, and perhaps As does not have enough. Would there be a starting amount of stealth skill that's clearly too strong? I think so. Then there should be some amount of additional stealth that's balanced.

Myself, I am not sure an increase is actually necessary, but I really like stealth to not-fight monsters. The suggestion to dish out additional stealth in form of a ring instead of skill does sound nifty, though.

[genericpseudonym]

It seems like the OP is saying "assassin is a bad stabber background, so it should either be changed to be better at stabbing, or lose stealth skill", while dynast is saying "it's not supposed to be a stabbing background and that's not why it has stealth". Having stealth skill is not exclusive to a "stabber" start.

My principal complaint is that the stealth skill and dagger fools new players into thinking As is a stabber start. If they're not going to become better at stabbing then at the very least they should lose the dagger.

What is a "good" stabber background?(please dont say En please dont say En please dont say En...)

It's literally just En. But the game fools players into As is one too.

[phloomp]

Give As a book containing nothing but swiftness and passwall. Who needs reliability when you have escape options?