Make mottled dragons/draconians acidic

[Shard1697]

1: Sticky flame has been a pretty anemic threat in the hands of enemies ever since the removal of item destruction-meanwhile, corrosion has become a more relevant threat, and rCorr has moved from amulets to rings(which I feel are often just kind of taking up an inventory space until slime/depths). I think compared to rime drakes/swamp drakes, it would make a lot more sense as an enemy again.

2: Because of the above(and honestly, even before it), rSticky is a pointless resistance. It just does not matter. rCorr, on the other hand, is not a bad resist to have, yet would not make mottled dragon armor(which is ring mail, but 1 lighter) overpowered-would, however, make it feel more "cool" to get as an armor when you happen to be playing a character who would like armor of that weight.

3: Simultaneously helps with a couple of draconian issues. It makes enemy draconians slightly simpler, lowering knowledge burden on the player. One less color to keep track of in enemy packs(and no sticky flame in zot, where it is totally worthless), mottled player draconians became the same as what yellow are now(slightly cool, instead of totally lame(maybe also give them acidic bite at XL 7? the way it's gated further doesn't make much sense to me)), and also the draconian colors make more sense compared to dragons that way. It was weird to have yellow, which is close to gold, have nothing to do with golden dragons(high AC, multi-elemental) and instead be acidic... and I think they still even get the message "Your scales take on a golden yellow color!" which muddies things further.


So!!

• Mottled dragons get acidic spit, which can deal moderate damage(should deal less than a firerime drake's 3d12... perhaps 3d8)
• Mottled dragons drop rCorr hide/armor
• Mottled draconians become acidic like yellow draconians are now, to follow mottled dragons and remove golden/yellow confusion
• Yellow draconians are removed

[Haelyn]

I think what you should do is definitely make the mottled dragon armor rCorr, but then make sticky flame acid/corrosion-based and keep that so it's at least a little different.

Also nuts to you for more corrosion the slime pits has already killed me every single time I step in it X3. I even had a character who cleared zot:5 who died quickly down there, and that was with rCorr.

[Airwolf]

I very much like the idea of a light rCorr dragon armour, but re-theming mottled seems problematic. How about a new yellow dragon? It's unfortunate there's no +N space left, though (<= +4 and +11 seem wrong.). Quicksilver style?

[Laraso]

Rather than transforming mottled into yellows and removing yellows, wouldn't it make more sense to just remove mottled and keep yellow? I would be more inclined to find a way to make sticky flamerelevant instead. I think sticky flame is more interesting than bolts of acid.

[Shard1697]

I think what you should do is definitely make the mottled dragon armor rCorr, but then make sticky flame acid/corrosion-based and keep that so it's at least a little different.

Also nuts to you for more corrosion the slime pits has already killed me every single time I step in it X3. I even had a character who cleared zot:5 who died quickly down there, and that was with rCorr.

I would be fine with keeping their attack something "sticky", but I think either way it should try to apply corrosion once(on hit), because if it stays on and repeatedly corrodes you that could quickly lead to a deathspiral situation and make them really annoying to deal with, and if it doesn't it's a meaningless attack that's out of flavor.

IMO slime is easier than V5 if you are careful, and besides we're talking about pre-slime enemies. Basically the only non-slime sources of corrosion are, what, jellies, entropy weavers, and caustic shrikes? 2/3 of which are depths only unless you get spider, in which case 1/3 is depths only, and another is contained to depths+one branch. I think there should be one or two more rCorr checking enemies in the midgame.

I very much like the idea of a light rCorr dragon armour, but re-theming mottled seems problematic.

Why? If it's just because it "feels weird" since we've had them this way for a while, I imagine we'd all get used to it pretty quickly.

How about a new yellow dragon? It's unfortunate there's no +N space left, though (<= +4 and +11 seem wrong.). Quicksilver style?

I don't want it to be yellow since part of the reason for this is to get rid of how close yellow/golden are in color despite doing totally different things as draconian/dragon.

I think mottled is actually good for acid-"mottled" implies something which has been worn down or damaged, which makes sense for an acidic-themed enemy, and the coloring of the mottled dragon tile is already similar to acid blobs.

I think sticky flame is more interesting than bolts of acid.

Why?

[dowan]

The only issue is that rSticky is kinda useless, right? But mottled get better apts than red, so it seems fairly... fair that they get a worse resist. Sticky flame breath is handy at times, but it's not really as good as conjure flame breath...

How about give mottled dracs +1 to fighting apt and call it a day. You can pretend like they get extra hps, that makes up for a crappy resist, right?

[claws]

Combining mottled and yellow draconians alongside making mottled dragons spit acid has been on my final todo list for a while now ever since I heard of it.

Part of my notes were also to preserve the mottled draconian melee-splash breath aspect even when making them use acid, so that it in isolation can be given high numbers than the fixed 3d7 for monster acid spit (and considering the gap between oklob plants or mottled dragons and acid blobs I'd rather not change that). It's still some degree of simplification to have less colours anyway, might buff Zot some, and monster mottled draconians have been stuck with a non-meaningful splash mechanic for a while now anyway. I was considering buffing monster-to-player sticky flame in the interim with the earliest placement of it being nearly Post-Lair (efreets in D, summoned smoke demons, the hell end's non-summoned smoke demons), but player ghosts sure are still a thing.

This thread, already tripping on specifics, will probably burn down in flames when corrosion is described as a bad mechanic that elicits always-possible perfect fleeing whenever it goes past 1 stack, thus making any use outside of acid blobs and caustic shrike either tedious (entropy weavers) or meaningless beyond another damage type (corrosive bolt). I do not personally agree with this statement, but.

[Laraso]

I think sticky flame is more interesting than bolts of acid.

Why?

Because the idea of igniting something and watching them burn to a crisp is cooler than just simply doing some flat damage like every other breath attack?

[Shard1697]

The only issue is that rSticky is kinda useless, right?

No. The main issue WRT draconians is that having a "yellow" draconian at the same time as "golden" dragons is confusing when they both do completely unrelated things. An unspoiled player who finds out about yellow draconians first would naturally assume golden dragons are also acid themed, just as an unspoiled player who finds out about golden dragons first would naturally assume yellow draconians get multiple resists.

Because the idea of igniting something and watching them burn to a crisp is cooler than just simply doing some flat damage like every other breath attack?

So it's cool as a player spell. But as a monster attack, it's pretty much totally pointless. I don't feel I've ever been threatened by it, and I think if mottled dragon armor becomes rCorr(which you are in favor of), naturally the attack theming of mottled dragons should follow.

[Haelyn]

I would be fine with keeping their attack something "sticky", but I think either way it should try to apply corrosion once(on hit), because if it stays on and repeatedly corrodes you that could quickly lead to a deathspiral situation and make them really annoying to deal with, and if it doesn't it's a meaningless attack that's out of flavor.

Right now corrosion is pretty nasty. -4 or -3 each. Sticky flame could keep that 'gradual kill' thing by just applying -1 corrosion each turn.

This thread, already tripping on specifics, will probably burn down in flames when corrosion is described as a bad mechanic that elicits always-possible perfect fleeing whenever it goes past 1 stack, thus making any use outside of acid blobs and caustic shrike either tedious (entropy weavers) or meaningless beyond another damage type (corrosive bolt). I do not personally agree with this statement, but.

Hopefully it doesn't go down. But I have to admit, I haaaaaate playing against corrosion, and rCorr never seems to do the job. So I can see how it can irritate players. I'd like if it were sliiightly less deadly, but I also wouldn't mind it being more common and giving rCorr more reason. And I do agree in general with the OP.

And giving rCorr the possibility of immunity with multiple stacks. please. i just want to beat slimes once. X3

[Shard1697]

Right now corrosion is pretty nasty. -4 or -3 each. Sticky flame could keep that 'gradual kill' thing by just applying -1 corrosion each turn.

I would like this as well, though I imagine the devs are not looking to change how Corr works on a base level because of one monster. However, if people really want to keep the "damage over multiple turns" thing, it could still do constant damage, and only check to corrode on the turn it first splashes the player.

And giving rCorr the possibility of immunity with multiple stacks. please. i just want to beat slimes once. X3

I'd recommend stairdancing a lot! Only explore each level enough to find the next downstairs until you hit 5, always dragging enemies back to stairs, and once you find TRJ, buff up like crazy, summon things if you can, and don't be afraid to run away to reset the fight. You should either be fighting him inside the middle structure's corridors to limit his allies that can attack you, or on an upstairs so you can flee easily if things go wrong(in the first case, use tele to flee if you need to-and early!).

[Haelyn]

I'd recommend stairdancing a lot! Only explore each level enough to find the next downstairs until you hit 5, always dragging enemies back to stairs, and once you find TRJ, buff up like crazy, summon things if you can, and don't be afraid to run away to reset the fight. You should either be fighting him inside the middle structure's corridors to limit his allies that can attack you, or on an upstairs so you can flee easily if things go wrong(in the first case, use tele to flee if you need to-and early!).

That's usually what I do. Problem is that if I stairdance TRJ, acid blobs always follow me up. And if I corridor him he runs away slowly. In either case, I always get overcorroded to death. (and sometimes hit with ice if there's an azure blob and I couldn't get Rc+ artefacts or an ice cave that was really good)

Berserk+heroism+phantom mirror'd TRJ is the biggest buff I ever did.

Anyway;

I don't mind one way or another if yellows get removed. it's probably fine.

I really like the idea of mottled dragon and sticky flame becoming part of the acid and corrosion deal. It takes it out of a niche, both for enemy and player, and makes it more flavorful/useful.

But here's a question. As far as I'm aware, corrosion hasn't been a thing players have access to?

[Shard1697]

Well, aside from yellow draconians and wands of acid... you can get an acidic bite mutation(maybe this is jivya specific outside of yellow dracs?), I think makhleb destruction can randomly be acidic. Usually players don't get non-limited acid because it's quite strong and very few things resist it.

[dowan]

Wands of acid, mahkleb's minor destruction, probably wands of random effects, and yellow drac breath/aux attack are the sources of player corrosion that I know of. However I think it works significantly differently for players than it does against them.

EDIT: Ninjad, but I'm leaving it anyway! Take that ninja!

[Haelyn]

Oh yeah, wands. I never really get around to training evocations so I always forget about them.

And in that case maybe it's a good idea to phase out yellows and remake mottleds like this then. There aren't even any yellow dragon enemies in the game so.

@dowan: and you ninja'd me, mate~

[dowan]

EDIT: Too dumb, didn't read

[Haelyn]

Yeah there are draconians. I meant the true dragons; fire, ice, storm, what have you.

[dowan]

Oh, yeah you said dragon, not draconian. My bad

[Haelyn]

All good man~

Incidentally, how strong should the mottled dragon armor be? my current understanding is that dragon armor is generally weaker but lighter and roomier than metal armors.

[Shard1697]

Mottled dragon armor already exists and I'm not proposing any change to it besides rCorr instead of rSticky.

Each current dragon armor except for gold is a better version of a metal armor that already exists. For example, storm and shadow dragon armor have 10 base AC(like plate), but only 15 encumbrance(like chain). Mottled dragon armor has 1 more base AC and 2 less encumbrance than ring mail, which makes it a pretty good option for low Str caster type characters.

[PlatinumSpider]

Another player acid source is the rod of clouds.

The stacking rCorr idea might be a good one. The resist doesn't seem to be as effective as rPois is.

As for the mottled change, sounds like a pretty good idea.

[Arrhythmia]

Let's not forget Nemelex's card "Vitriol" everyone!