Merge Elyvilon into Zin


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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Thursday, 14th July 2016, 01:13

Merge Elyvilon into Zin

Ely and Zin are 2 invocations heavy gods that have a lot of redundancy between each other, and Ely has a lot more design issues than Zin does. I'll just make a list quick:

1: Redundancy between Zin's passive lifesaving and Elyvilon's Protection from Harm ability. These both serve the function of saving you from fatal damage based on piety, but the latter is much clunkier and more awkward to use. You have to activate it manually, and the failure chance for this ability starts at 0%... but the actual chance of success will still be very bad for a long time, and for an unspoiled player it's unclear when exactly it's worthwhile because you both don't know what the chances are most of the time, and you have to deal with the awkward "don't kill anything" conduct while it's active. I think this sort of ability functions much, much better as a passive.

2: Redundancy between Zin's Vitalisation and Elyvilion's Purification. These are again, two abilities which you are given at a similar time(*** and **, respectively), both functioning off invo and often serving the same purpose, but Ely gets the short end of the stick. Zin's Vitalisation boosts your stats based on invo and also gives you immunity to many negative status effects for its duration, meanwhile, Purification only clears negative status effects that you currently have. Also, they are subtly different in what status effects they deal with, which can be confusing... especially since these are two gods which you can switch between without penance and both are invocations heavy, meaning the same character might use both at different times in one game.

Purification removes: Poison, Sickness, Rot, Confusion, Petrify, Stat drain and slow.
Vitalisation gives immunity to: Poison, Sickness, Rot, Confusion, Petrify, Stat drain, and effects of curare+wasp/hornet stings.

Almost the same, but not quite!
Also, there's a flavor mismatch here: Zin is explicitly the god of purity, and even has vaults with Purification stations, but for some reason when both these gods have such same-y abilities Ely gets the one called Purification.

3: Heal other has a whole lot of issues. To start, it has strange flavor/use discrepancies: it is flavored as healing, and does indeed heal, but the actual use of this power is not for healing(allies or otherwise), but pacification, which does not care about whether the monster is actually capable of being "healed", and can thus be used on monsters which are at full HP. This is confusing, to say the least. More importantly, unlike basically all other targeted "affect monster" spells, it does not check either HD or MR-instead, it checks maximum HP. This has several problems, starting with how different monsters of the same species can have wildly varying max HP. This not only means that chances to affect the same species of monster can be hugely different, but also as a result, this ability does not show the player a percentage chance to affect the targeted monster like most other things that do now. If it did, the player could use this information to figure out which monsters of the same species have what amount of HP relative to each other, which is information that is purposefully hidden. People have proposed letting it instead show the player a chance based off that monster type's "average" HP, but that means the number shown could be hugely inaccurate in either direction, which would be confusing and misleading... so neither have happened, which means players are stuck with awkward, ambiguous failure messages, and the unspoiled player won't have a good idea what their chances to pacify are.

4: The changes to Elyvilon were done for good reason, but they left her in a weird spot playerbase-wise. Before, most people who worshipped Ely did so to play "pacifist" type games-pacify basically everything and try to kill nothing. With the changes to Ely's piety and Heal Other requiring spending piety each use, this is no longer really reasonable, which drove away basically the last niche of players who still played Ely often... and now she is a very unpopular god, because her abilities are boring/annoying and the interesting ones are done better by other gods(specifically, Zin). It also affects bits of her flavor, making her skill titles and some quotes like "Go forth and aid the weak!" very strange and unconnected to your gameplay when you're still spending most of your time just murdering everything.

5: Cheap self healing abilities are strong, but they are also very dull. I am in favor of none of these existing, as more 'proactive' damage prevention abilities like Zin's imprison are much more interesting.

So, here is what I propose to merge Ely into Zin:
  • Combine Pacification of non-evil monsters with Recite. Recite now affects all monsters: monsters which are not chaotic/undead/demons/heretics have a chance to be pacified, based on invocations, and checking HD, not max HP. Monsters which are chaotic/undead/demons/heretics receive the same negative effects as before.
  • Drop the boring self-heal abilities.
  • Drop Ely's Protection from Harm, in favor of the similar but better passive Zin already has.
  • Rename Vitalisation to Purification in line with Zin's theming, include immunity to slow alongside the other statuses, and merge the HP/MP increase of Ely's Divine Vigor into it. To compensate, move it from **.... to ****.. piety.

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Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 16th July 2016, 10:06

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

This is like somebody starred directly into my soul; I find it hard to describe with words. I'm sorry, I... *sniff* *wimper" I think I need a moment.

Needless to say, I couldn't agree more with this proposal (forgive me, HardboyledGargoyle).

Let me make one thing perfectly clear, this is not because "Ol' Rely just hates Ely for no reason, what a grinch", I chose this nick because I sincerely believe that Ely has so many design flaws that a complete rework (which will basically result in a new god entirely) or a complete removal is in order.

Random note: If this were any other game it would make for an excellent "event" were one of the members of the good triumvirate god defeated for good. A god dead for good?! Omg, nobody could have seen that coming! How will the remaining two react?! Will there be a new challenger to bolster the forces of good?

Random note 2: Trishula needs to be renamed to bident.

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Post Saturday, 16th July 2016, 13:34

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

The One True God appreciates your subtle buff proposal.
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Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 16th July 2016, 15:34

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

I would be more OK with this if we also simultaneously reworked Elyvilon into something else. She doesn't have to be a healer god or even a pacifist, but it would be nice to keep a third "good" god in the pantheon. If you remove Elyvilon, you leave only Zin and TSO, and it would seem weird to have a special case of being able to swap gods for free between only those two.
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Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 16th July 2016, 15:47

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

At least one of the good gods should be good though.
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Post Saturday, 16th July 2016, 17:42

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

oh hi, mps, long time no see!
so what is this Zin made of:

0*: life protection, rHell, rMut, donate gold
1*: recite (which can also pacify)
2*:
3*: imprison
4*: purification (actually a buffed vitalization)
5*: sanctuary
6*: cure all mutations
Laraso wrote:I would be more OK with this if we also simultaneously reworked Elyvilon into something else. She doesn't have to be a healer god or even a pacifist, but it would be nice to keep a third "good" god in the pantheon. If you remove Elyvilon, you leave only Zin and TSO, and it would seem weird to have a special case of being able to swap gods for free between only those two.

creating gods with the primary purpose of filling up a magic number of god slots? No, that's silly. And it would be so funny for those good-god vaults to have multiple altars to Zin or TSO. Although, I would nominate Beogh for becoming the third good god if Elyvilon gets simply removed.
The good god switching mechanic is bizarre indeed. The good gods all shine late. Maybe the idea is that they each provide unique strategic/transformative benefits (holy wrath, cure rot, cure mutations) but most of the other gods also do it - especially Jiyva/Ash, but also all the gifting gods and Lugonu. Nothing wrong with "good" gods disliking each other.

removeelyvilon wrote:Let me make one thing perfectly clear, this is not because "Ol' Rely just hates Ely for no reason, what a grinch", I chose this nick because I sincerely believe that Ely has so many design flaws that a complete rework (which will basically result in a new god entirely) or a complete removal is in order.

you haven't introduced yourself. Maybe you can at least show what problems Purification has? Do you hate Ru as well?
If you've never had real Vanilla ice cream, I'll tell you, it is so good you don't even want adulterants like chocolate.

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Shoals Surfer

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Post Saturday, 16th July 2016, 18:57

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

you haven't introduced yourself. Maybe you can at least show what problems Purification has? Do you hate Ru as well?
If you've never had real Vanilla ice cream, I'll tell you, it is so good you don't even want adulterants like chocolate.

My belly is fat, my teeth are in decay: You guessed it, I play crawl. Hey hey!

Like OP said, Zin vit already protects you from negative effects and preventing negative effects in the first place
is better than curing them with an overprized and uncreative copy of a common pot where the minor healing isn't even included. Yawn.
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Post Saturday, 16th July 2016, 19:49

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

so if I understand it correctly, Pur is problematic because... Vit is stronger?
I mentioned Ru because Draw Out Power cures you of roughly the same statuses as Pur, and gives not-exactly-minor healing.
Is there something that redeems Ru when Elyvilon is so unforgivable?
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Post Saturday, 16th July 2016, 19:51

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

Sounds fine to me, given the similarities and changes you describe. Although, I will say that I really liked the idea of a 'pacifist' playthrough, and of course the easiest way to facilitate that is with a god. It'd be very interesting to see how such a thing could be accomplished, especially with the whole deal of things you NEED to kill. Maybe you could give it a sprinkling of Gozag; bribing, trading, and negotiating your way through those who won't simply be pacified.

I also think the good god triumvirate is, well, a good thing. You've got the holy angel crusader nut, the lord of all that is pure and right, and then the soft fluffy healer. That's a pretty perfect triangle.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Saturday, 16th July 2016, 20:22

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:Is there something that redeems Ru when Elyvilon is so unforgivable?
I'll be honest: I'd completely forgotten that Draw out Power was not just heal wounds. Doesn't help that it doesn't cure poison, I suppose-I guess it's specifically just things that affect movement? Including webs and nets, which is a bit odd. I think most people just don't use it so they can use Apocalypse if they need to.

Also for what it's worth, I think if you are going to have a healing ability, it's probably better to either have it be something passive like Makhleb/TSO heal on kill, or if need be Ru's which exhausts you so you can't spam it and must weigh it against the other abilities(and also Ru's conduct is much, much more interesting than anything Ely has). With Ely, even with the piety cost there are times in which it can be smart to repeatedly heal yourself because a dangerous monster might enter LoS or whatever.

I was thinking before I made this thread about potential ways to reform Ely's healing to make it less cheesy/more tactically interesting(because it's not impossible that healing could be cool+fun as a god power), and something I ended up with was "Healing Mist"-basically, call to Ely for healing, and Ely creates Healing Mist clouds at a piety cost... but they appear somewhere random in LoS, so you need to reposition to enter them and start regaining HP. The location they end up in could be somewhere where you need to think about your movement to make it around monsters, or might make you decide between staying in a good position or walking out into somewhere less safe for healing.
Also if we're talking Ely reform instead of removal, just rename "heal other" to "pacify" and make it work based off HD instead of max HP to clear up weird flavor/clarity issues and so that we can have a % chance of success on target.
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Blades Runner

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Post Saturday, 16th July 2016, 23:56

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:
Laraso wrote:I would be more OK with this if we also simultaneously reworked Elyvilon into something else. She doesn't have to be a healer god or even a pacifist, but it would be nice to keep a third "good" god in the pantheon. If you remove Elyvilon, you leave only Zin and TSO, and it would seem weird to have a special case of being able to swap gods for free between only those two.

creating gods with the primary purpose of filling up a magic number of god slots? No, that's silly. And it would be so funny for those good-god vaults to have multiple altars to Zin or TSO. Although, I would nominate Beogh for becoming the third good god if Elyvilon gets simply removed.
The good god switching mechanic is bizarre indeed. The good gods all shine late. Maybe the idea is that they each provide unique strategic/transformative benefits (holy wrath, cure rot, cure mutations) but most of the other gods also do it - especially Jiyva/Ash, but also all the gifting gods and Lugonu. Nothing wrong with "good" gods disliking each other.


It's not about reaching a "magic number", as you put it. It's that the current function of good gods allowing you to swap between them freely is interesting and helps make them feel more unique than the rest of the pantheon, even if that feature doesn't get used very often and is often irrelevant in practice.

The proposal of removing Elyvilon and buffing Zin is sound, and has good reasoning. However, I would be a lot more enthusiastic about this change if there was a new good god to fill the void that would be left by Elyvilon's removal. In the end, Zin will be the same exact Zin he is right now, just slightly stronger, but there will be one less god to choose from. This would ultimately result in - at least for me - a less interesting game. Even if Elyvilon has problems, this change feels like a net loss to me as far as the game is concerned.

Also, if this proposal does end up getting picked up, I would argue against keeping Zin's passive lifesaving and opt to instead give him Elyvilon's active life saving. I would argue that the conduct of not killing things while it's active does not feel awkward, and is considerably more interesting. A constant, random chance to not die is far less interesting and interactive than an active ability that requires you to make a decision of whether it's worth using or not after weighing it against your other options, and deciding if the conduct it imposes is appropriate for your situation or not. If the chance of success is not transparent enough, this could easily be fixed by showing the chance of failure in the abilities screen in the same way that the chance for hostile demons shows up for Makhleb. If you feel the chance of success scales strangely, you can fix this by either changing the formula or making it governed by the invocations skill.
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Post Sunday, 17th July 2016, 00:07

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

Laraso wrote:The proposal of removing Elyvilon and buffing Zin is sound, and has good reasoning. However, I would be a lot more enthusiastic about this change if there was a new good god to fill the void that would be left by Elyvilon's removal. In the end, Zin will be the same exact Zin he is right now, just slightly stronger, but there will be one less god to choose from. This would ultimately result in - at least for me - a less interesting game. Even if Elyvilon has problems, this change feels like a net loss to me as far as the game is concerned.


Something like, what, four major gods have been added in as many versions, with another two in trunk? You could easily change the flavour/flags of any of those six and "fill the void left by Elyvilion".
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Sunday, 17th July 2016, 00:18

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

Also, if this proposal does end up getting picked up, I would argue against keeping Zin's passive lifesaving and opt to instead give him Elyvilon's active life saving. I would argue that the conduct of not killing things while it's active does not feel awkward, and is considerably more interesting. A constant, random chance to not die is far less interesting and interactive than an active ability that requires you to make a decision of whether it's worth using or not after weighing it against your other options, and deciding if the conduct it imposes is appropriate for your situation or not. If the chance of success is not transparent enough, this could easily be fixed by showing the chance of failure in the abilities screen in the same way that the chance for hostile demons shows up for Makhleb. If you feel the chance of success scales strangely, you can fix this by either changing the formula or making it governed by the invocations skill.


Zin already has a live-saving active in sanctuary. I also think it is already a very strong diety that shouldn't get many buffs tbh (also in regards to OP's post). And most of all, I think Ely's active life saving is the bloodiest mess of an ability this game has to offer (poorly explained, unreliable, possibly abusable) so I'd rather stick with the life saving passive (which is really just more of a nice touch than a real ability anyway).

Also, one problem with moving vit higher is cementing Zin's status as a late-game god (vit is a surprsisingly good combat trick even early on, it's no berserk but hey). Whether this is good or bad I cannot judge. Merging it with divne vigor would also be overkill unless there was a serious limitation on how often you could use it.
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Post Sunday, 17th July 2016, 01:27

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

If there's any part of my proposal I'm least attached to it's merging divine vigor and vit, it basically stems from "well, this is the one Ely ability I sorta like".

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Post Monday, 18th July 2016, 07:11

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

I'd rather just have Ely focus on not needing to kill at all. And Zin laying down the brimstone and preaching.
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Post Monday, 18th July 2016, 10:39

Re: Merge Elyvilon into Zin

I don't know if something like "not killing" really has a place in crawl as a constant throughout your run.

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