Jivya issues

[Shard1697]

This is gonna be a short list of (potentially problematic)weirdness I ran into while doing my latest Jivya game.

1(the biggest issue): I was a demonspawn with antennae(which, even if I wasn't, Jivya could give me randomly). Worshipping Jivya and having monster detection is really, really annoying, and constantly interrupts autotravel(and to some extent, resting).


o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o

o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o,o...

2: Slimifying vault wardens does not remove door/stair lock.

This is unintuitive to say the least, and if you are in a bad situation can mean "murder your own jelly and incur penance, tele, or die". "Killing" the warden in this way makes the lock harder to get rid of, which is the opposite of how dealing with the wardens normally works. It's a pretty strong "gotcha", you could be fighting many guards, warden locks stairs, and you decide to slimify him since it will be an instant 'kill'-but since it's your first time doing that, you didn't know it doesn't remove lock and now you have actually made situation worse, because now you can't kill him without penance.
It seems that the same thing applies to summons, which is also strange.

3: Thorn hunters(probably also shambling mangroves?) seem to be un-slimifyable, which is weird. I guess it's because they're a plant, but this also feels unintuitive to me-I feel as though the only enemies which should be immune to slimify should be demons, primarily for clarity's sake(and also because "why prevent the player from slimifying this tough enemy, when they get to slimify basically all other tough enemies even including aliches, up until you hit extended and there are demons everywhere"). It's much easier to remember "I can turn anything into slimes minus demons", and plants being excluded when all other enemies made from 'organic' material are slimifyable, even undead, feels very strange to me. IMO, let MH_PLANT monsters be slimified.

4: I had a moment where I was fighting a shapeshifter, which was in orange brain form, and I was not allowed to melee it without incurring penance. However, once it changed into a giant eyeball, I was allowed to hit it-but aren't giant eyeballs counted as slime-type enemy? They turn neutral with jivya at any rate. Perhaps this happened because when it first entered LoS it was already in orange brain form. Either way shapeshifters becoming something which would otherwise be neutral but isn't is a bit strange in the first place, but I should at least always be able to attack them if they aren't neutral.

5: Enemy necromancer's bind soul does not trigger(yet is removed) when an enemy is slimified. This is last here because I don't know if it's good or bad that this is how this works, but it does feel a bit strange.

[duvessa]

The justification behind slimify's holiness restriction is "there are natural and undead Js but no plant/holy/demonic/nonliving Js". I don't think it was done for balance reasons.

The shapeshifter thing is a bug that nobody cares enough to fix. The warning is actually wrong; you can attack the giant orange brain/jelly/whatever shaped shifter without getting penance or piety loss.

[dowan]

Jiyva bugs are low priority since there's about a 0.00001% chance of anyone actually playing Jiyva who doesn't already know what to expect. You have to make a lot of bad decisions to end up with jiyva as your god.

[dynast]

Why are jellies neutral instead of friendly? Its not like that changes anything...

[Shard1697]

Jiyva bugs are low priority since there's about a 0.00001% chance of anyone actually playing Jiyva who doesn't already know what to expect. You have to make a lot of bad decisions to end up with jiyva as your god.

FWIW, besides this stuff, I do think Jiyva is fun. And "Jiyva isn't really strong" or the usual complaints like "Jiyva stat shuffling isn't very smart"/"You can't rely on having mutations you want with Jiyva" are, I think, what people usually expect wrt Jivya, not autoexplore being constantly interrupted by sensing monsters.

[Wahaha]

I also had the displeasure of playing a demonspawn with antennae with Jiyva recently, but thought that it was such a rare case that it's not worth reporting.

I think thorn hunters should be slimifyable, and other similar cases too. Maybe they should be changed to living.

[Shard1697]

I also had the displeasure of playing a demonspawn with antennae with Jiyva recently, but thought that it was such a rare case that it's not worth reporting.

Well, also for a while now there has been a whole species(Formicids) which always have antennae.

I think thorn hunters should be slimifyable, and other similar cases too. Maybe they should be changed to living.

They don't need to be changed to living if instead we change how slimify works so it can affect more types of holiness. Right now only MH_NATURAL and MH_UNDEAD are affected by slimify, but why not MH_PLANT and maybe MH_NONLIVING as well? That way only demons and the rare angelic enemies will be immune.

[Arrhythmia]

Jiyva bugs are low priority since there's about a 0.00001% chance of anyone actually playing Jiyva who doesn't already know what to expect. You have to make a lot of bad decisions to end up with jiyva as your god.

Any bug that breaks autoexplore should have top priority though.

[Wahaha]

They don't need to be changed to living if instead we change how slimify works so it can affect more types of holiness. Right now only MH_NATURAL and MH_UNDEAD are affected by slimify, but why not MH_PLANT and maybe MH_NONLIVING as well? That way only demons and the rare angelic enemies will be immune.

Non-living has things like gargoyles and statues and golems if they still exist. And orbs of fire : )

[Shard1697]

There are basically two obvious solutions to the monster-detection-jelly-issue that I see:
1: Jellies under Jiyva are special cased to not stop auto-explore when detected. This is a very mild info-leak, since it means if autoexplore is not interrupted by a monster being detected, that monster is a slime-type monster.
2: Jellies are always detected by Jiyva, wherever they are on the map(and you can always see what they are, so they never interrupt autoexplore). I prefer this approach, since it's also a mild convenience buff for Jiyva in general.

They don't need to be changed to living if instead we change how slimify works so it can affect more types of holiness. Right now only MH_NATURAL and MH_UNDEAD are affected by slimify, but why not MH_PLANT and maybe MH_NONLIVING as well? That way only demons and the rare angelic enemies will be immune.

Non-living has things like gargoyles and statues and golems if they still exist. And orbs of fire : )

Ah, I forgot Orbs of Fire were in that category. In that case it should probably stay exluded. I definitely think plants should be included though.

[Shard1697]

Just noticed something more: the "monster changing allegiances does not remove summons/lock" thing can cause issues with beogh too.




When the high priest got low on HP, he became an ally, but his summons stayed hostile-which means they were now hostile to him as well, and killed him, unsummoning themselves.

[duvessa]

There are basically two obvious solutions to the monster-detection-jelly-issue that I see:
1: Jellies under Jiyva are special cased to not stop auto-explore when detected. This is a very mild info-leak, since it means if autoexplore is not interrupted by a monster being detected, that monster is a slime-type monster.
2: Jellies are always detected by Jiyva, wherever they are on the map(and you can always see what they are, so they never interrupt autoexplore). I prefer this approach, since it's also a mild convenience buff for Jiyva in general.

3. Monster detection doesn't detect friendly/friendly neutral monsters.