Rename Crystal Plate Armour to Iron Dragon Armour

[Rast]

Stats would remain 14AC, 23ER, but it would be wearable by trolls and ogres.

Also there would be iron dragon hide, etc.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

also wearable by spriggans, don't forget the spriggans
as a side-effect, it would no longer generate with rF/rC(/ponderous?) under rare circumstances
+1, iron dragon armour is much cooler than crystal and it could stand to be more available anyway

[Shtopit]

I like it. The crystal plate unrandarts could stay as they are.

[kroki]

elegant, i like it

[duvessa]

I don't think making CPA effectively unable to generate with enchantment would be an improvement. Also, this would be really weird because the chance of CPA generating is very different from that of dragon armours.

[Dungeoneer]

but how would the mlgxXx420 DCSS pro-gods know if IDA is ice or iron?

[genericpseudonym]

but how would the mlgxXx420 DCSS pro-gods know if IDA is ice or iron?

Probably the same way they differenceiate between Storm/Steam/Swamp.

[hannobal]

IMHO there's definitely more than enough dragon armours in the game at the moment, we don't need another one for just flavor reasons.
CPA is a nice diversion from that, it would be sad to see it being re-flavored as "just another dragon armour".
I don't mind if iron dragon armour was added, but it should be something else than just re-flavored CPA.

[andreas]

The rareness of CPA is good, imo. It makes it a bigger deal when you find it (or are gifted it). It's an even bigger deal when you find it and it's actually a good idea to use it. Dragon hides are common in comparison.

The niche of very heavy, good but usually impractical dragon armour is already filled well by GDA, I think.

[goodcoolguy]

There was supposedly some talk about an iron dragon shield at some point, which would be a nice idea to round out the shield game, make them more desirable to use etc. That is, assuming they are somehow better than other shields that are available at that stage of the game, which would be saying something because some fairly nice shields tend to have generated by then.

On the other hand, making CPA available to every late game melee character would probably not be so good. GDA is kind of bad, whereas CPA is not at all bad. I think you'd see even more of a tendency to forgo magic higher than level 2 and go for the heaviest possible armor, which would always be CPA, in every game.

[Arrhythmia]

On the other hand, making CPA available to every late game melee character would probably not be so good. GDA is kind of bad, whereas CPA is not at all bad. I think you'd see even more of a tendency to forgo magic higher than level 2 and go for the heaviest possible armor, which would always be CPA, in every game.

How on earth is gaining 2 AC and 2 potential AC but losing rF+, rC+, and rPois the difference between "kind of bad" and "not at all bad"?

[goodcoolguy]

Well, pretty much the deal is: AC is good.

[Arrhythmia]

Yes, but once you have more than 40, you're kind of allowed to start valuing other things more.

[goodcoolguy]

Only if GDA is the only available source of rF and rC. Obviously, rPois is irrelevant.

[Arrhythmia]

2 AC is not the difference between a good and a bad item, especially when that item already gives you more than 10 AC

Like, if there was a foo dragon armour that gave me only 12 AC, that item would still be basically as good as CPA is.

[goodcoolguy]

Hm, I disagree. I have to insist that AC is actually good.

I understand confusion on this point though. A lot of players seem to think that resistances are as good as AC or even better. You seem to be arguing a different point, that AC becomes unimportant after some threshold. This is also essentially false in practice.

[Arrhythmia]

Hm, I disagree. I have to insist that AC is actually good.

I understand confusion on this point though. A lot of players seem to think that resistances are as good as AC or even better. You seem to be arguing a different point, that AC becomes unimportant after some threshold. This is also essentially false in practice.

No, that's not what I'm arguing, I'm arguing that 2 AC isn't the difference between a bad item and a good item especially when it already gives you more AC than you need. Stop putting words in my mouth.

[goodcoolguy]

Well, I think my original statement was "kind of bad" vs. "not at all bad." I think it would be fair to say most characters who would have a choice between GDA and this new IDA would get 3 AC most of the time. They'd also get slightly more GDR, but let's not get into that.

3 AC is good. To test your theory re: 3 AC making the difference between good and bad items, let's consider the cases of +0 plate vs. +3 plate or a +0 buckler vs. a +0 buckler of protection. Clearly in these cases 3 AC makes one much better than the other, the difference between good and bad even. An apparently closer comparison might be a +3 buckler of resistance vs. a +3 buckler of protection. I would argue that the +3 buckler of protection will provide more value on most characters. AC is just good and your options for getting more of it vs. a realistic prior equipment set up are usually less diverse than for getting rF and rC. Also, for those few cases that it really matters, rF and rC are available via potions. That's just how I see it.

[Arrhythmia]

Well, I think my original statement was "kind of bad" vs. "not at all bad." I think it would be fair to say most characters who would have a choice between GDA and this new IDA would get 3 AC most of the time. They'd also get slightly more GDR, but let's not get into that.

3 AC is good. To test your theory re: 3 AC making the difference between good and bad items, let's consider the cases of +0 plate vs. +3 plate or a +0 buckler vs. a +0 buckler of protection. Clearly in these cases 3 AC makes one much better than the other, the difference between good and bad even. An apparently closer comparison might be a +3 buckler of resistance vs. a +3 buckler of protection. I would argue that the +3 buckler of protection will provide more value on most characters. AC is just good and your options for getting more of it vs. a realistic prior equipment set up are usually less diverse than for getting rF and rC. Also, for those few cases that it really matters, rF and rC are available via potions. That's just how I see it.

Both the +0 plate and the +3 plate are good, and both the +(whatever) buckler (of resistance) and +(whatever) buckler of protection are bad, so I'm not convinced.

[goodcoolguy]

We may just have to agree to disagree!

[dowan]

Taking less damage is better than taking more damage. In any situation where they apply rF, rC, or rPois could take far more than 2 damage off an incoming attack. 2 AC will never take more than 2 damage off an incoming attack.

rPois is not irrelevant, it maybe be overvalued, like resistances are sometimes, but responding to that by undervaluing makes you just as wrong, but you're being wrong on purpose, so it's even worse... Go stand in a poison cloud with/without rPois, or get hit with a poison arrow or bolt, and tell me it's irrelevant...

[goodcoolguy]

Yes, the only competent player I've seen claim rPois matters by the time you'd be making a choice between GDA and the proposed IDA said something about standing in poison clouds. This was one of the things that made me start rethinking my opinion of that player.

[Hands]

Accounting for the armour skill someone wearing the heaviest armours in the game would have the extra 2 base ac of CP will give you somewhere between 3 and 4.5 bonus AC in mid to late game. Realistically you're not likely to notice it given that your AC will by this point be very high either way. Late game they're both effectively equivalent, except in the rare circumstance that you have no other source of rC or rF, in which case GDA is better.

[rchandra]

GDA used to be worse (more encumbering, maybe less AC?) than it is now, so there's some of that going around. When you find either of them early enough to enchant, or have a good randart to save scrolls, they can be good.

And please don't remove armour for more dirty dragonskins.

[hannobal]

This is slightly off-topic, but one nice thing about GDA is that it gives you two extra inventory slots compared to rF plate, or three extra slots compared to CPA (because you don't have to carry resistance rings). So you could carry an extra evocable items instead, for example. Also you don't have to swap away e.g slaying ring while fighting monsters dealing cold/fire damage. Especially if you don't want to play the ring-swapping sub-game more than absolutely necessary.
And of course this is not the case if you have other gear giving those resistances.

Not a reason to choose GDA by itself, but a bonus if you do.

[duvessa]

This is slightly off-topic, but one nice thing about GDA is that it gives you two extra inventory slots compared to rF plate, or three extra slots compared to CPA (because you don't have to carry resistance rings). So you could carry an extra evocable items instead, for example. Also you don't have to swap away e.g slaying ring while fighting monsters dealing cold/fire damage. Especially if you don't want to play the ring-swapping sub-game more than absolutely necessary.
And of course this is not the case if you have other gear giving those resistances.

Not a reason to choose GDA by itself, but a bonus if you do.

I think you posted in the wrong thread

[Haelyn]

While I'm not deeply knowledgeable about AC and encumbrance and so on despite constantly replying gargoyle fighter, I will say that I really wish Iron Dragons dropped a hide, and I wish I could do something with it. Why? Because every other dragon does. Iron dragons got left out man.

But I do like crystal plate. It's kinda neat.

So I guess I'd want both. Iron dragon armor though... I would suggest it offers immunity to things like manticore barbs and the iron dragon's own breath weapon and other things of a similar flavor. Or maybe it could be one of the ways to resist torment at last. Who knows? There's a lot you could do with it.

[hannobal]

This is slightly off-topic, but one nice thing about GDA is that it gives you two extra inventory slots compared to rF plate, or three extra slots compared to CPA (because you don't have to carry resistance rings). So you could carry an extra evocable items instead, for example. Also you don't have to swap away e.g slaying ring while fighting monsters dealing cold/fire damage. Especially if you don't want to play the ring-swapping sub-game more than absolutely necessary.
And of course this is not the case if you have other gear giving those resistances.

Not a reason to choose GDA by itself, but a bonus if you do.

I think you posted in the wrong thread

Quite possibly!

[ololoev]

3 AC is good.

I wiztested fight with Azure jelly in GDA (got 22 AC) and CPA (26 here, EV is the same) (armour & dodge skills were 20).
AvEffDam is 7.6 v 11.2.
I also put on 2 rings of rC and launched test again and got 4.4 v 5.0.
GDA won vs elemental damage.
Your arguments are invalid.

[goodcoolguy]

You should try it with nonelemental damage.

[dowan]

How do you play crawl without elemental damage? I agree in that version that GDA is worthless, but this board is for DCSS, where elemental damage is quite common.

Yes, the only competent player I've seen claim rPois matters by the time you'd be making a choice between GDA and the proposed IDA said something about standing in poison clouds. This was one of the things that made me start rethinking my opinion of that player.

Also, standing in poison clouds isn't something you do on purpose, but when a dragon breathes a poison cloud onto you, many times your next few turns will still be in a poison cloud. Of course, poison arrow and venom bolt do exist as well, which you've ignored to make your totally excellent insult. At least I don't have to rethink my opinion of you though, the level of quality of your posts has remained constant!

[goodcoolguy]

In my version, you don't have to stand in poison clouds or leave one of your two rings of resist cold off when you're not wearing your GDA. Are you guys playing trunk?

[genericpseudonym]

3 AC is good.

I wiztested fight with Azure jelly in GDA (got 22 AC) and CPA (26 here, EV is the same) (armour & dodge skills were 20).
AvEffDam is 7.6 v 11.2.
I also put on 2 rings of rC and launched test again and got 4.4 v 5.0.
GDA won vs elemental damage.
Your arguments are invalid.

Presumably the character without in CPA would be spending a ring slot on rC while the character in GDA would use it for something better (assuming they had decent items).

[goodcoolguy]

But only in the fight with the azure jelly.

[Quazifuji]

It feels like there are a lot of people who are trying to argue that CPA is better than GDA, even though, as far as I can tell, not a single person in the entire thread has disagreed with that. It's all just strawmanning.

Arrhythmia didn't say CPA is better than GDA, he said that if CPA is good, then GDA must be at least decent, because it's not significantly worse than CPA. Is 3 or 4 AC better than rF, rC, and rPois? Generally, yes. It's just not so much better than CPA is good while GDA is bad. If CPA is good, GDA must be at least decent on average, with its overall strength varying depending on you jewelry selection.

Anyway, back to the original topic: So far, everyone's just been discussing balance when discussing the rarity of CPA, but personally, I also just like having super rare, powerful item types in the game that you can't always count on finding. Not knowing whether you'll find a CPA or not when you're playing a heavy armor character is good for the game. It encourages you to adapt to what armor you find, and it makes it exciting when you find CPA. Similar to how most weapon types have a rare top-tier weapon, and light and medium armor have QDA and PDA, respectively, I like that there's a rare, "ultimate" heavy armor type. Replacing CPA with more common iron dragon armor would diminish that excitement and uncertainty.

[Arrhythmia]

PA is good, then GDA must be at least decent, because it's not significantly worse than CPA. Is 3 or 4 AC better than rF, rC, and rPois? Generally, yes. It's just not so much better than CPA is good while GDA is bad. If CPA is good, GDA must be at least decent on average, with its overall strength varying depending on you jewelry selection.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say, thank you.

[duvessa]

Similar to how most weapon types have a rare top-tier weapon, and light and medium armor have QDA and PDA, respectively, I like that there's a rare, "ultimate" heavy armor type. Replacing CPA with more common iron dragon armor would diminish that excitement and uncertainty.

You must find a lot more iron and pearl dragons than I do.
Also QDA isn't top-tier. It sucks.

[Quazifuji]

Similar to how most weapon types have a rare top-tier weapon, and light and medium armor have QDA and PDA, respectively, I like that there's a rare, "ultimate" heavy armor type. Replacing CPA with more common iron dragon armor would diminish that excitement and uncertainty.

You must find a lot more iron and pearl dragons than I do.
Also QDA isn't top-tier. It sucks.

Maybe you're right, but I think you still understand what I'm trying to say. People were expressing balance-related concerns about the possibility of iron dragon armour being more common than CPA, and whether that was a potential balance issue. I wanted to point out that I think having the heaviest, highest-base-AC armour type in the game be rare was a good idea not just for balance reasons, but because it's just plain more interesting if you can't count on finding it with every heavily-armoured character, in the same way it's interesting that not every character can count on PDA or QDA if they want it, or not every sword-user can count on finding a triple-sword. Nitpicking about the exact relative rarity or strength of PDA, QDA, and CPA seems besides the point.

If Iron Dragons are much rarer than people in this thread believe, and changing CPA to iron dragon armour would not actually result in a notable decrease in rarity, that is worth pointing out, but if that's your main point then it would be better for the conversation if you expressed it better.

On that topic: aren't iron dragons at least reasonably common in Dis, even if they're really rare in other places? How hard would popping into Dis for some Iron Dragon armour be? Are we comfortable with the sentence "If you haven't found Iron Dragon Armour by the time you find a Hell portal in Depths, head into Dis and fight Iron Dragons until you get a hide" ever being said (whether it's good or bad advice, I guarantee someone would say it)?

[duvessa]

People go to Geh to find demon whips sometimes. I had assumed that changing CPA to iron dragon armour would also include giving it the dragon armour acquirement weight, making it less common overall in vaults and far less common in deliberate acquirements and Okawaru gifts.

[ololoev]

You should try it with nonelemental damage.

That's why I say 'vs elemental damage' which is quite common lategame (where it is wise to wear heavy stuff like gda/cpa). Btw you can stop theorizing and fsim fight v orb guardian (I can fsim it for you in about 1 hr).
Okay, I fsimed fight v orb guardian in the same cases (22AC 15EV GDA and 26AC 15EV CPA), it was 11.7 v 10.1 AvEffDam, so in CPA you are 15% more resilient to pure physical attack with base damage of 45. You will get more reduction vs weaker hits, but bear in mind that crawl have a lot of elemental damage.
If you lack rF or rC, I'd prefer GDA with a nice AC/EV/Stat ring over CPA.

[genericpseudonym]

If iron dragon hides are too common compared to CPA can't you just reduce Iron Dragons' chance to drop a hide?

[and into]

Counterproposal:

Keep CPA as it is. Introduce following items:

Iron Dragon Hide
{Ponderous}
Base AC: 5
Encumbrance: 25

Iron Dragon Hide, upon being targeted with ?enchant armour, glows and transforms into.....

Iron Dragon Armor
{Ponderous}
Base AC: 18
Encumbrance: 25

Iron Dragon corpses have chance to generate hide when butchered.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

i think 18 base ac (50% more than GDA) is way too good even with ponderousness
i mean, people know running is powerful but dislike it; they wouldn't mind the ponderousness

[and into]

i think 18 base ac (50% more than GDA) is way too good even with ponderousness
i mean, people know running is powerful but dislike it; they wouldn't mind the ponderousness

That's possible; ponderous is a significant drawback, but 18 base ac is significantly higher than any current armor. Perhaps 16 base ac (linear increase from GDA — CPA — IDA) might be more appropriate.

Of course base AC also determines maximum enchantment, but the chances of having 19 ?enchant armour right when you find an iron dragon hide is probably less likely than the chances of simply finding an artefact CPA with enormous innate enchantment. (And if we are talking about a character that has cleared multiple ziggurats or farmed Pan to raise an IDA all the way up, well, then we are talking about a character that could have already won the game and is just doing whatever, so... whatever, let them have a +18 or +16 homegrown IDA, who cares.)

[duvessa]

Why would I wear GDA over and into's hypothetical iron dragon armour?

[and into]

I'm still playing 0.17 locally so maybe it is different now—and it may just be clustering illusion—but outside of Dis Iron Dragons seem to be much less common than Gold Dragons. Usually people end up wearing plate armor over storm/shadow/golden dragon armor anyway, but the latter set of armors arguably have a niche. I don't think Iron Dragons need their own armor, but right now they are the only full-fledged dragons that don't leave hides, aside from bone dragons (which make sense thematically to be excluded from the whole hide-leaving business).

Another option would be for IDA to have, say, 12 base AC, ER 23, but also give +SH. Now that we have amulets of reflection and what not, people who are into that can have some fun. Probably not optimal in most cases, but hey, neither is GDA!

[genericpseudonym]

Why would I wear GDA over and into's hypothetical iron dragon armour?

You found the rings of robustness and shaolin and don't want to remove them to wear resistance jewelry.

[goodcoolguy]

Iron dragon -> iron dragon scales -> dragon axe. Like a demon blade, but a 1-handed axe instead.

[dowan]

Only if when you fully enchant the dragon axe it turns into a Dragon King Greataxe, becomes 2 handed, and has the same attack speed as the dark maul.