Dith warns you if you can't use spells upon joining

[Reptisaurus]

Yeah, okay, maybe I'm just an idiot but I pretty much always forget Dith's fire restriction if I'm not actually playing an FE. (And once when I was!)

Like if I'm a a wizard with conjure flame or an artificer I'll join Dith if I find him early and then be all "Oh, wait, that was a really bad idea"/abandons Dith/Dies. Nothing is worse than losing a venom mage who found early ignite poison to God wrath.

So just a prompt "If you join now some of your spells won't work!"

Alternately:

(A) Get rid of the fire restriction all together. It isn't like letting dith worshippers cast fireball would make them overpowered killing machines.

(B) Dith worshippers can't train fire magic.

[Arrhythmia]

(A) is the best option far and away

[Sar]

you mean the worst one right

[Arrhythmia]

you mean the worst one right

crate just got a violent twitch and isn't sure why

[Cheibrodos]

Remove the fire conduct. It doesn't change the way you play at all except for making some of your loot unusable at random.

[PleasingFungus]

i don't think that's what the word 'random' means.

[Shard1697]

"Arbitrary", then, since it's not really a balance consideration(fire items/spells specifically are not better than, for example, ice items/spells, so fire's not banned to balance Dith's abilities)

Especially since it cares only about Fire, and not other sources of light. Dazzling Spray is allowed, Corona is allowed...

[schoen]

As are thunderous bolts of lightning. Part of me thinks then that this discrepancy should be addressed in the other direction and make all these other sources of light bad conduct.

[Arrhythmia]

As are thunderous bolts of lightning. Part of me thinks then that this discrepancy should be addressed in the other direction and make all these other sources of light bad conduct.

It was like this for a while, and then changed to what it is now, because that was even more arbitrary (bolt of lightning made light and was Bad, but conjure ball lightning was chill?)

[prozacelf]

And if you were an --En^Dith, you would invariably forget that Dith hated Corona, then cast it on something that turned invisible and earn some good ol' Dith penance.

[schoen]

It was like this for a while, and then changed to what it is now, because that was even more arbitrary (bolt of lightning made light and was Bad, but conjure ball lightning was chill?)

Then CBL should have been made bad conduct too? And corona and dazzling spray and all that. I'd prefer if the flavour was actually consistent. However many spells you disallow, it can't be as restrictive as Trog. Buff Dith if he needs it.

[Arrhythmia]

It was like this for a while, and then changed to what it is now, because that was even more arbitrary (bolt of lightning made light and was Bad, but conjure ball lightning was chill?)

Then CBL should have been made bad conduct too? And corona and dazzling spray and all that. I'd prefer if the flavour was actually consistent. However many spells you disallow, it can't be as restrictive as Trog. Buff Dith if he needs it.

Okay that sounds good until you realize that a lot of the shit in crawl doesn't exist in real life and deciding whether or not it makes light is completely arbitrary. Like, does IMB create light? When I wield a weapon of freeze, it "glows with a cold blue light", should those be banned? Should irradiate be banned because of the magical contamination I stick myself with? What about "clouds of seething chaos", do those involve light or not?

Even after you've compiled a grand list of everything in crawl and decided whether or not it makes light, the question of why banning these things makes Dith a better god is still unanswered. Does not letting me cast Irradiate change the way I play? What is good about having Dith ban freezing weapons from me?

[Quazifuji]

If I remember correctly, Dith's conduct was basically added solely for the sake of adding a conduct, there wasn't really any gameplay reason behind it besides "conducts are neat, let's add a conduct," and that's a pretty terrible reason for it, in my opinion.

Conducts that affect the way you play the game in interesting ways are neat. But I think it's exceedingly rare for Dith to do that. I feel like the vast majority of the time, Dith's conduct affects me in one of two ways:

1. I rely heavily on fire, so choosing Dith is out of the question. Thus, a potentially interesting character choice is not available.
   
2. I do not rely on fire, so it has little-to-no bearing on my choice of whether or not to worship Dith. Some completely arbitrary (from a gameplay standpoint) items and spells will not be available to me for the rest of the run. Most of these spells and items are redundant with other, similar spells or items, so this does not significantly affect my playstyle.
   

Overall, Dith's conduct just feels arbitrary and pointless. It doesn't affect the way I play the game or restrict my character in any interesting ways. Most of the time, it just does nothing, or it takes a choice that might have been interesting ("Do I want to worship Dith with my DEFE?" or "Do I want to learn this fire spell/use this fire item?") and makes it not interesting instead. There's never a point where Dith's conduct makes me seriously consider how it's going to affect my playstyle in a meaningful way.

[KoboldLord]

If we need a flavor-based reason why the goddess of shadow would be okay with light and fire, just consider that light casts shadows. Light is not an opposite for shadow; it is a source of power as well as a potential threat. All the more reason for her followers to take control of it.

[schoen]

Re: Arrhythmia,

Point well taken. Then the best way forward seems to be not to go all in on this current conduct, but get rid of it or think of a better, more internally consistent one with interesting gameplay ramifications.

[Siegurt]

I agree that a more meaningful and immersing and still vaguely thematic conduct, would be good to replace the no fire conduct for dith.

Ideas?

[Quazifuji]

Why does Dith need a conduct? That was part of the point I wanted to make in my post: Dith is a perfectly good god design without a conduct, and adding a conduct for the sake of adding a conduct just seems silly. Most other gods with conducts or drawbacks have that as the core of their design. The good gods are an exception, but the good god are extremely flavor-focused, especially TSO and Zin.

Trying to add a conduct to Dith just for the sake of having a conduct feels like bad game design. Dith wasn't designed with a conduct in mind (like I said, I remember it being added part way through just because people liked the idea of gods having conducts, and "no light" made thematic sense). Dith wouldn't be overpowered with no conduct. There is no reason that the fire conduct needs to be replaced. It can be removed.

This isn't to say that it isn't possible to give Dith a cool, meaningful conduct that really adds to the god's design, or that we shouldn't discuss it. I just think "Should the fire conduct be removed?" and "Are there interesting conducts that could be added to Dith?" are entirely unrelated discussions, because there's no particular reason Dith needs to have a conduct.

[crate]

The behaviour where Dith does not warn you when you attempt to cast a fire spell is a bug. You get a warning when you attempt to cast forbidden spells under other gods. You should probably make a bug report.

[genericpseudonym]

The behaviour where Dith does not warn you when you attempt to cast a fire spell is a bug. You get a warning when you attempt to cast forbidden spells under other gods. You should probably make a bug report.

The complaint isn't "i cast fireball under dith and the game didn't warn me".
The complaint is "i joined dith with fireball memorized and the game didn't warn me"

[crate]

Oh, well Dith also doesn't give you a warning for spells that he forbids, despite all other gods doing so. The other warning doesn't seem necessary to me, but I don't care much either way. It should also, of course, be extended to all gods if it is added.

[dowan]

Yeah, being reminded when you join TSO that you can't cast regeneration anymore would be nice too.

[Reptisaurus]

Yeah, being reminded when you join TSO that you can't cast regeneration anymore would be nice too.

And Zin and Fedhas with necromancy.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

One could consider making a noise conduct. I don't envisage making any spells or activities strictly forbidden or result in penance.

Instead Dith awards more piety for killing enemies quietly. Sleep stabbing and using spells like freeze and pain for example. When killing enemies while making more than a threshold noise (say more than 6), no piety is awarded at all. From 2 (80%) noise to 6 (10%) the chance of gaining piety becomes progressively lower.

Along the same vein Dith could award bonus piety for killing noisy enemies like vault sentinels, howler monkeys and enemies that use noisy spells.

Of course this would need to be communicated to the player somehow and would require a fair bit of overheads to implement. Although players do currently feedback on what kind of kills gods enjoy.

[dowan]

Anything encouraging the player to kill monsters in a specific way for piety is a no-go, and for good reason. Do you really want to switch to a dagger to kill popcorn? (More damage makes more noise... I think)

[Arrhythmia]

Plus, "Killing monsters without making noise" is already a good thing in and of itself. Most conducts prevent the player from doing a good thing (TSO) or force the player to do a bad thing (Qaz, Chei, Ash).

[eliotn]

What about having all of the fire clouds/burning you generate be extinguished immediately? Doesn't make fire useless, but it fits well with the theme.

[duvessa]

Fraknly a noise conduct can only sound like a good idea if you have no clue how many things make noise (hint: almost everything)