Riposte

[Sprucery]

So, any comments yet on Riposte? How good is it in practice?

  Code:

Long blade users now have a 50% chance of launching a free
counter-attack when enemies miss them, similar to the minotaur
retaliation effect.

The goal here is to differentiate longblades from other weapon
clasess, specifically by encouraging using them with light armour.
There's a particular synergy there with the sbl crosstraining -
you can imagine a version of this effect that triggers when enemies
*hit* (encouraging heavy armour), but that seems less interesting.

Lbl damage has been adjusted to compensate: -1 base damage for
1-handers, -2 for 2-handers.

[removeelyvilon]

To me personally it would make so much more sense to rename this to counter and move it to UC (trained above 0, requires a free main hand slot) instead while giving long blades the flanking mechanic that was floating around.

On the current situation: I was thinking that maybe a skald start with a race that is good at dodging could get some good use of this?
But then again, anything that merely makes you consider playing a skald is too dangerous to exist imo.

[Bart]

I assume this works per each enemy attack?

[dowan]

Hmmm... interesting change. Long blades have always been my favorite, but a 14 damage great sword... eh. Of course, a 14 damage double sword is pretty good with a 50% chance to counter attack.

Now... what happens when a minotaur uses a long blade? Can he get a free headbutt and long blade counter at the same time? Time to make some evasive minotaurs!

[Shard1697]

Yeah, tried mino with long blades and it seems pretty fun.

This doesn't seem overwhelmingly strong, but it does feel pretty good early on.

[Sandman25]

That's too big buff IMHO. -1 base damage is insignificant and most species who have positive aptitudes in Long Blades have positive aptitudes in Dodging too: HE (+2, +1), Mi (+2, +1), Te (+1, +1), Mf (+1, +3).
Only HO has +1, -2.
Now Long Blades users are OP in corridors and still ok in the open.

[Bodrick]

I imagine this being hilarious vs hydras.

[Sar]

Especially if you aren't wielding a flaming weapon!

[Leszczynek]

So now you have to remember to unwield your non-flaming long blade if you have a hydra next to you?

[Shard1697]

For now, yes. I would imagine not permanently.

Honestly I would rather the whole "hydra head cutting" mechanic removed instead of tweaks to this, that's where the problem lies.

[njvack]

Riposte probably should just not behead hydras. The question of whether hydra head chopping is good or bad is for another thread.

[genericpseudonym]

I feel like flavor-wise the riposte should trigger on shield blocks as well, but at the same time that sounds very OP, especially on Formicid.
You could reduce the riposte chance to compensate but then you're reducing the appeal of the 2h longblades.

[Sandman25]

Riposte on block could be done for Short Blades which definitely need a buff.

[duvessa]

I'm pretty sure riposte increases damage output by too much right now, even with it being weaker against monsters that make few/no melee attacks.
I kind of hate myself for suggesting this since it adds more complexity, but it's possible the trigger chance needs to scale with long blades skill, because weapon skills primarily increase your damage by reducing attack delay, and ripostes don't have attack delay at all. Which results in the impact of riposte being super huge at low skill, assuming you keep your EV up.

I worry that it's too much like a plain damage boost, but maybe it changes enough based on the monster you're fighting to be ok. I do think it's easiest to balance if ripostes continue to act just like an additional normal melee attack, including auxes etc., because that way if 20% of your attacks are ripostes, you know riposte is increasing your damage by 25%. Whereas if you exclude auxes, you have to figure out how much less damage a riposte is doing compared to your normal attacks, which is hard. Fewer variables = better.

As a player I'm happy with it so long as monsters don't get it and I don't have to press v. #fuckreaching

[Shard1697]

That would probably bring riposte more in line to other weapons in the early dungeon, when it feels really, really strong. Maybe scaling up to 50% chance of riposte once you hit mindelay? At least for now, maybe would still be a bit strong but I think how good it is against early enemies feels like the biggest thing rn

e: by the way, ripostes do not cause spectral weapon to attack-is this intended?

[Sprucery]

As a player I'm happy with it so long as monsters don't get it[...]

I will be surprised if they don't... I bet tengu warriors are eagerly waiting for this buff :)

[goodcoolguy]

I am skeptical of the reasoning that riposte will open new ground for "EV-based" melee characters. The fact is even in heavy armor monsters miss you a lot and taking big damage because you've traded AC for EV is still going to be really bad. It's good to have some differences among melee weapons, though.

edit: Is there a Shroud of Golubria interaction here?

[ion_frigate]

Am I the only one who thinks damage nerfs are a boring way of compensating for new abilities like this? I feel like it'd be more interesting if changing their mindelay was an option. Why do we stick to the pre-DCSS weapon delay mechanics, anyway (the whole, mindelay = half of base delay rounded down, with a max of seven, except for that short blade no one can agree on)? They certainly aren't very clear to the player, and I think they restrict a lot of developer choices.

Overall, the game would benefit if the weapon description screen displayed something like this:

  Code:

Double sword: This thing makes no sense, but hey, it does a lot of damage.  And somehow you can wield it with one hand.

Skill: Long Blades

Base damage: 15
To-hit: -1

Base delay: 15
Min delay: 7.5
Skill to reach min delay: 15


This gives the player a very clear idea of the weapon's capabilities, and allows for another dimension of flexibility in weapon design (changing mindelay) to be clearly communicated to the player.

[Quazifuji]

Now that I think about it, I'm kind of amazed that "make either swords or maces have more damage but higher mindelay" isn't a common suggestion for differentiating them. Especially considering that there's already precedent with the difference between bows and crossbows.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

arguably, that bow/crossbow precedent should not have been set

the trigger chance needs to scale with long blades skill, because weapon skills primarily increase your damage by reducing attack delay, and ripostes don't have attack delay at all.

this "problem" is easy enough to "fix" by making the % chance of triggering inversely proportional to delay, so that with e.g. a scimitar (delay: 1.4/0.7 base/min) riposte happens twice as often at mindelay compared to base delay

[duvessa]

Am I the only one who thinks damage nerfs are a boring way of compensating for new abilities like this? I feel like it'd be more interesting if changing their mindelay was an option. Why do we stick to the pre-DCSS weapon delay mechanics, anyway (the whole, mindelay = half of base delay rounded down, with a max of seven, except for that short blade no one can agree on)? They certainly aren't very clear to the player, and I think they restrict a lot of developer choices.

Overall, the game would benefit if the weapon description screen displayed something like this:

  Code:

Double sword: This thing makes no sense, but hey, it does a lot of damage.  And somehow you can wield it with one hand.

Skill: Long Blades

Base damage: 15
To-hit: -1

Base delay: 15
Min delay: 7.5
Skill to reach min delay: 15


This gives the player a very clear idea of the weapon's capabilities, and allows for another dimension of flexibility in weapon design (changing mindelay) to be clearly communicated to the player.

It's not another dimension of flexibility. Higher base damage = higher damage:time ratio. Lower delay = higher damage:time ratio.

[dowan]

With this change, great swords and double swords do the same base damage, yet double swords have a lower delay and are one handed. That seems problematic, double swords are now absolutely better than great swords, instead of just mostly better.

Aside from that, I like the idea, although as duvessa points out it might need a little tweaking.

[Arrhythmia]

With this change, great swords and double swords do the same base damage, yet double swords have a lower delay and are one handed. That seems problematic, double swords are now absolutely better than great swords, instead of just mostly better.

Aside from that, I like the idea, although as duvessa points out it might need a little tweaking.

Great swords also spawn around D:9, double swords can pretty easily never spawn. I don't see how that's a problem.

e: Like, is it a problem that demon whips are strictly better than plain whips?

[genericpseudonym]

With this change, great swords and double swords do the same base damage, yet double swords have a lower delay and are one handed. That seems problematic, double swords are now absolutely better than great swords, instead of just mostly better.

Aside from that, I like the idea, although as duvessa points out it might need a little tweaking.

2swords are the rarest and highest-damage 1handers while greatswords are the most common, lowest-damage 2handers. I don't see this as much of a problem. Eveningstars/dwhips are better than dire flails and demon tridents are better than scythes as well.

[dowan]

Scythes don't count because they're purposely terrible, but your other points stand. It's just that before this change, great swords weren't strictly worse than double swords, and now they are. I guess it sticks out more to me than the other examples because great swords are typical stopping point for training long blades, like how battleaxes are a typical stopping point for axes, and great maces are the typical stopping point for maces. If the intent was to make great swords more like halberds and dire flails, in that they're good early game 2 handers that become outclassed later, that's one thing, but I'm not sure that was the intent. And in those cases, dire flails are replaced by great maces (20 skill), and halberds are replaced by glaives (20 skill).

So what I think should happen is simply that all swords get -2 base damage, rather than just the two handers. That might also help a little with the issues duvessa is talking about, where it's absurdly good early game.

EDIT: Of course, the other option, which I doubt anyone really wants, is to add another 2 handed sword type to be the long blade equivalent to glaives.

EDIT2: The other big problem here is that now a triple sword does 17 base damage, and requires 24 skill, while a double sword does 14 base damage and requires only skill 16. They seem like a worse investment than executioners axes at this point. The problem being that it's an even worse idea than ever to train up for a triple sword, which I don't think are any rarer than double swords.

[nago]

A bad current behaviour I've spotted is that riposte is triggered even when not attacking, so currently pretty much every char in early D should grab the biggest long blade in case of moving for better positioning|running away when a fast monster is present - e.g. adder, hound - to get some free hits meanwhile.
I think riposte should trigger only when actively attacking. No opinion if that should trigger only against the target monster or everything in range - to eventually avoid overlapping with axes' cleave.

[ion_frigate]

It's not another dimension of flexibility. Higher base damage = higher damage:time ratio. Lower delay = higher damage:time ratio.

And the Dark Maul is just a couple of great maces taped together. Changing mindelay can change tactical considerations in combat, especially when you're facing multiple enemies, or fast enemies. It also changes the relative value of enchantment and slaying for a weapon. Additionally, a higher-damage, higher-delay weapon is better against armored targets than a lower-damage, lower-delay weapon that has the same damage:time ratio.

You could argue that an increase of .5-1aut doesn't change things that much, but that's an issue of degree. It's facile to argue that changing mindelay is no different from changing damage.

[luckless]

I've played a bunch with riposte over the last couple days (winning Mi & De fighters; lots of dead tengu), and love it. It's fun, and strong but not (afaict) broken: long blades seem about as good in their niche as axes and polearms are in theirs, and I really like how maces & flails now have a unique identity as the basic-but-strong weapons.

I do think double swords are now unequivocally the best long blade, though, and should be nerfed. An obvious fix would be just to lower their damage to 13, but it may be interesting to keep it at 14 and instead raise the delay to 16 or 17.

Aslo, there may well be a case for raising greatswords to glaive stats--15 damage, 17 delay. This would probably require introducing a long blade equivalent to halberds, though. Maybe bring back bastard swords?

(In a perfect world I'd eliminate double swords entirely--which look like oversized tuning forks in tiles--and stat bastard swords as 13 damage/15 delay two-handed weapons that could also be used one-handed--or two-handed by small races--at 18 base delay. But I'd imagine this would be a pain to code.)

[tabstorm]

Is there something wrong going on here?

  Code:

You completely miss the five-headed hydra.
 Your bite misses the five-headed hydra. The five-headed hydra misses you. x2
 The five-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The five-headed hydra completely misses you.
_The five-headed hydra closely misses you.
 You lop one of the five-headed hydra's heads off!
 The four-headed hydra grows two more! You hit the six-headed hydra.
 You bite the six-headed hydra! You drain its power.
 The six-headed hydra is moderately wounded.
 The six-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The six-headed hydra bites you.
 The six-headed hydra closely misses you.
 The six-headed hydra barely misses you.
 The six-headed hydra closely misses you.
_The six-headed hydra completely misses you.
 You hit the six-headed hydra. Your bite misses the six-headed hydra.
_The six-headed hydra is moderately wounded.
 You hack one of the six-headed hydra's heads off!
 The five-headed hydra grows two more! You slice the seven-headed hydra!!
 Your bite misses the seven-headed hydra.
 The seven-headed hydra is heavily wounded.
 The seven-headed hydra bites you but does no damage. x2
 The seven-headed hydra bites you.
 The seven-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The seven-headed hydra closely misses you.
_The seven-headed hydra misses you. The seven-headed hydra bites you.
 You barely miss the seven-headed hydra.
 The seven-headed hydra is heavily wounded.
 The seven-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The seven-headed hydra closely misses you.
 The seven-headed hydra bites you but does no damage. x2
 The seven-headed hydra completely misses you.
 The seven-headed hydra misses you.
_The seven-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 You hack one of the seven-headed hydra's heads off!
 The six-headed hydra grows two more! You hit the eight-headed hydra.
 The eight-headed hydra is heavily wounded.
 The eight-headed hydra closely misses you. x2
 The eight-headed hydra bites you but does no damage. x3
 The eight-headed hydra bites you.
 The eight-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
_The eight-headed hydra bites you.
 You lop one of the eight-headed hydra's heads off!
 The seven-headed hydra grows two more! You slice the nine-headed hydra!!
_The nine-headed hydra is severely wounded.
 You hack one of the nine-headed hydra's heads off!
 The eight-headed hydra grows two more! You slash the ten-headed hydra!
 You bite the ten-headed hydra! You drain its power. You feel invigorated.
 The ten-headed hydra is severely wounded.
 The ten-headed hydra bites you!
 The ten-headed hydra closely misses you.
 The ten-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The ten-headed hydra misses you.
 The ten-headed hydra closely misses you.
 The ten-headed hydra completely misses you.
 The ten-headed hydra bites you but does no damage. x3
 The ten-headed hydra closely misses you.
 The lindwurm is distracted by the nearby gold.
_The lindwurm roars!
 You hack one of the ten-headed hydra's heads off!
 The nine-headed hydra grows two more! You slash the 11-headed hydra!
 You bite the 11-headed hydra! You drain its power. You feel invigorated.
 The 11-headed hydra is almost dead.
_The 11-headed hydra is distracted by the nearby gold.
 You completely miss the 11-headed hydra.
 The 11-headed hydra is no longer distracted by gold.
 The 11-headed hydra roars!
 You bite the 11-headed hydra. You drain its power.
 The 11-headed hydra is almost dead.
 The 11-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The 11-headed hydra bites you. x2
 The 11-headed hydra bites you but does no damage. x2
 The 11-headed hydra misses you. The 11-headed hydra barely misses you.
 The 11-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The 11-headed hydra bites you! The 11-headed hydra closely misses you.
_The 11-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 You lop one of the 11-headed hydra's heads off!
 The ten-headed hydra grows two more! You slice the 12-headed hydra!!
_You kill the 12-headed hydra!


No ripostes.

  Code:

The six-headed hydra bites you! The six-headed hydra barely misses you. x3
 The six-headed hydra bites you.
_The six-headed hydra closely misses you.
 You lop one of the six-headed hydra's heads off!
 The five-headed hydra grows two more! You slash the seven-headed hydra!
_The seven-headed hydra is lightly wounded.
 You hack one of the seven-headed hydra's heads off!
 The six-headed hydra grows two more! You hit the eight-headed hydra.
 The eight-headed hydra is lightly wounded.
 The eight-headed hydra misses you.
 The eight-headed hydra closely misses you.
 The eight-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The eight-headed hydra misses you.
 The eight-headed hydra barely misses you.
 The eight-headed hydra closely misses you.
_The eight-headed hydra bites you but does no damage. x2
 You hack one of the eight-headed hydra's heads off!
 The seven-headed hydra grows two more! You hit the nine-headed hydra.
 You bite the nine-headed hydra! You drain its power.
 The nine-headed hydra is moderately wounded.
 The nine-headed hydra closely misses you.
 The nine-headed hydra completely misses you.
 The nine-headed hydra bites you but does no damage. x2
 The nine-headed hydra bites you.
 The nine-headed hydra barely misses you.
 The nine-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The nine-headed hydra bites you.
_The nine-headed hydra barely misses you.
 You slice one of the nine-headed hydra's heads off!
 The eight-headed hydra grows two more! You slash the ten-headed hydra!
 The ten-headed hydra is moderately wounded.
 The ten-headed hydra barely misses you. You riposte.
 You slash the ten-headed hydra! You bite the ten-headed hydra!
 You drain its power. You feel invigorated.
 The ten-headed hydra is severely wounded.
 The ten-headed hydra misses you. x2
 The ten-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The ten-headed hydra bites you. The ten-headed hydra barely misses you.
 The ten-headed hydra bites you!
 The ten-headed hydra bites you but does no damage. x2
_The ten-headed hydra bites you!
 You hit the ten-headed hydra. You bite the ten-headed hydra.
 You drain its power. You feel invigorated.
_The ten-headed hydra is severely wounded.
 You chop one of the ten-headed hydra's heads off!
 The nine-headed hydra grows two more! You slice the 11-headed hydra!!
 Your bite misses the 11-headed hydra.
 The 11-headed hydra is almost dead.
 The 11-headed hydra bites you. The 11-headed hydra barely misses you.
 The 11-headed hydra bites you. x2
 The 11-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The 11-headed hydra bites you. The 11-headed hydra barely misses you.
 The 11-headed hydra misses you. The 11-headed hydra barely misses you.
 The 11-headed hydra bites you.
_The 11-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 You lop one of the 11-headed hydra's heads off!
 The ten-headed hydra grows two more! You slice the 12-headed hydra!!
 You kill the 12-headed hydra!

  Code:

You chop one of the eight-headed hydra's heads off!
 The seven-headed hydra grows two more! You slice the nine-headed hydra!!
 Your bite misses the nine-headed hydra.
 The nine-headed hydra is moderately wounded.
 The nine-headed hydra barely misses you.
 The nine-headed hydra bites you but does no damage. x3
 The nine-headed hydra bites you.
 The nine-headed hydra bites you but does no damage. x2
_The nine-headed hydra closely misses you. x2
 You lop one of the nine-headed hydra's heads off!
 The eight-headed hydra grows two more! You hit the ten-headed hydra.
 You bite the ten-headed hydra. You drain its power.
 The ten-headed hydra is moderately wounded.
 The ten-headed hydra misses you.
 The ten-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The ten-headed hydra closely misses you.
 The ten-headed hydra bites you!
 The ten-headed hydra completely misses you. x2
 The ten-headed hydra misses you.
 The ten-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The ten-headed hydra bites you.
_The ten-headed hydra completely misses you.
 You slice one of the ten-headed hydra's heads off!
 The nine-headed hydra grows two more! You hit the 11-headed hydra.
 You bite the 11-headed hydra, but do no damage.
 The 11-headed hydra is lightly wounded.
 The 11-headed hydra misses you.
 The 11-headed hydra bites you but does no damage. x2
 The 11-headed hydra closely misses you.
 The 11-headed hydra bites you but does no damage. x6
_The 11-headed hydra completely misses you.
 You slice one of the 11-headed hydra's heads off!
 The ten-headed hydra grows two more! You slash the 12-headed hydra!
 You bite the 12-headed hydra!! You drain its power. You feel invigorated.
_The 12-headed hydra is heavily wounded.
 Your plate armour prevents you from hitting the 12-headed hydra.
 You bite the 12-headed hydra. You drain its power.
 The 12-headed hydra is heavily wounded.
 The 12-headed hydra bites you. The 12-headed hydra barely misses you.
 The 12-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The 12-headed hydra closely misses you.
 The 12-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The 12-headed hydra closely misses you. The 12-headed hydra bites you.
 The 12-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The 12-headed hydra barely misses you. The 12-headed hydra bites you.
_The 12-headed hydra bites you but does no damage. x2
 Your plate armour prevents you from hitting the 12-headed hydra.
 You bite the 12-headed hydra. You drain its power. You feel invigorated.
 The 12-headed hydra is heavily wounded.
 The 12-headed hydra completely misses you.
 The 12-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The 12-headed hydra bites you.
 The 12-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The 12-headed hydra barely misses you. The 12-headed hydra bites you!
 The 12-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The 12-headed hydra bites you! The 12-headed hydra misses you.
 The 12-headed hydra completely misses you.
 The 12-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
_The 12-headed hydra closely misses you.
 Your plate armour prevents you from hitting the 12-headed hydra.
 The 12-headed hydra is heavily wounded.
 The 12-headed hydra closely misses you. You riposte.
 You slash the 12-headed hydra!
 The 12-headed hydra is almost dead.
 The 12-headed hydra misses you.
 The 12-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The 12-headed hydra closely misses you. The 12-headed hydra misses you.
 The 12-headed hydra closely misses you. The 12-headed hydra bites you.
 The 12-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 The 12-headed hydra bites you! The 12-headed hydra closely misses you.
 The 12-headed hydra barely misses you.
_The 12-headed hydra bites you but does no damage.
 You lop one of the 12-headed hydra's heads off!
 The 11-headed hydra grows two more! You slash the 13-headed hydra!
 You bite the 13-headed hydra! You drain its power. You feel invigorated.
_The 13-headed hydra is almost dead.
 You hack one of the 13-headed hydra's heads off!
 The 12-headed hydra grows two more! You slice the 14-headed hydra!!
 You kill the 14-headed hydra!

Why so few ripostes? That's a whole lot of misses and 2 ripostes against 3 hydras.

Edit: I conjuecture that there's an issue with how riposte treats multiple attacks. Both my ripostes were on the hydra's first attack of the turn.
Edit2: I made a counting error and failed to account for x2's x3's, and so on. It should be 2 ripostes in 72 misses, so (72C2)*(1/2)^72 ~ 5.41*10^-19.

[tabstorm]

For comparison, here is a fight against a swamp worm:

  Code:

The swamp worm completely misses you. You riposte.
 You closely miss the swamp worm.
 You bite the swamp worm, but do no damage.
_The swamp worm bites you!
_The swamp worm bites you but does no damage.
 The swamp worm closely misses you. You riposte. You slice the swamp worm!!
 You bite the swamp worm. You drain its power. You feel invigorated.
_The swamp worm is almost dead.
_The swamp worm bites you.
_The swamp worm bites you but does no damage.
 The swamp worm misses you. You riposte.
 Your plate armour prevents you from hitting the swamp worm.
 You bite the swamp worm. You drain its power. You feel invigorated.
 The swamp worm is almost dead.
_The swamp worm bites you but does no damage.
_The swamp worm bites you!
_The swamp worm closely misses you.
_The swamp worm bites you but does no damage.
_The swamp worm bites you but does no damage.
 The swamp worm bites you. The swamp worm closely misses you. You riposte.
 Your plate armour prevents you from hitting the swamp worm.
_The swamp worm is almost dead.
_The swamp worm misses you.
_The swamp worm bites you but does no damage.
_The swamp worm closely misses you.
_The swamp worm barely misses you.
 The swamp worm bites you!
_The swamp worm bites you but does no damage.
_The swamp worm closely misses you.
_The swamp worm misses you.
_The swamp worm misses you.
_The swamp worm bites you.
 The swamp worm misses you. You riposte. You closely miss the swamp worm.
 The swamp worm is severely wounded.
_The swamp worm bites you but does no damage.
 The swamp worm closely misses you. You riposte.
 You closely miss the swamp worm. You bite the swamp worm! You drain its power.
 You feel invigorated.
_The swamp worm is almost dead.
_The swamp worm misses you.
 The swamp worm completely misses you. You riposte. You slice the swamp worm!!
 You kill the swamp worm!


15 misses, 7 ripostes, just as you'd expect.

[PleasingFungus]

Is there something wrong going on here?
Why so few ripostes? That's a whole lot of misses and 2 ripostes against 3 hydras.

Edit: I conjuecture that there's an issue with how riposte treats multiple attacks. Both my ripostes were on the hydra's first attack of the turn.
Edit2: I made a counting error and failed to account for x2's x3's, and so on. It should be 2 ripostes in 72 misses, so (72C2)*(1/2)^72 ~ 5.41*10^-19.

It's a holdover from minotaur headbutt retaliation.

  Code:

        // Retaliation only works on the first attack in a round.

Seems to have been added when monster minotaur retaliation was added, in this commit; before then, headbutts had a halved chance to trigger on later attacks in a round.

[ajon]

You probably don't want to riposte and behead a hydra anyways, do you?

[Hellmonk]

I did some wizmode testing with a little help from minmay. Riposte has some funny interactions with god conducts.

If you riposte with a flaming weapon under Dithmenos, you get piety loss.
If you riposte with a holy wrath weapon under Yred, you get penance.
If you riposte with an evil branded weapon under TSO, Ely, or Zin, nothing happens. But if you riposte with Bloodbane, you get penance. Zin doesn't care if you riposte with Glaive of Prune.
E: TSO also doesn't care if you riposte with venom and don't inflict poison, but gives penance if you do poison them on the riposte.
If you riposte with the sword of Zonguldrok under Fedhas, you get penance.

There's no additional prompt or ability to cancel the riposte for any of these interactions. I'm not 100% sure what the intended interaction is so I didn't put in a bug report. My guess is that they should all cause penance, but you could make a case that you should just not be allowed to riposte with a weapon that conflicts with your god conduct.

E: to be clear, the main issue is consistency between the different conducts. I have no strong opinion on the exact nature of the interaction, but they should probably all work the same way.

[PleasingFungus]

you're already warned when equipping those weapons, right?

e: looks like the lack of penance for ely/zin with evil weapons is the same for riposte as it is for directly attacking; you get warned about potential penance but there isn't any. definitely a bug there; i guess they should care?

[Hellmonk]

you're already warned when equipping those weapons, right?

Yes. No additional prompt is probably fine. It's kind of weird since there's almost always a prompt immediately before you do the thing that gives you penance though.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

Zin doesn't care if you riposte with Glaive of Prune

but I bet PleasingFungus does! (Prune is not a long blade)

[Hellmonk]

Zin doesn't care if you riposte with Glaive of Prune

but I bet PleasingFungus does! (Prune is not a long blade)

You have to wear Fencer's Gloves.

[PleasingFungus]

actually none of the good gods seem to care about attacking or riposting with evil weapons. what weapon did you use to make tso mad?

[Hellmonk]

actually none of the good gods seem to care about attacking or riposting with evil weapons. what weapon did you use to make tso mad?

Looks like I was mistaken. TSO gets mad about bloodbane but not evil branded weapons. Updated the original post.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

the evil brand must activate and must be applied to a susceptible monster; are you sure it happened?

[Hellmonk]

the evil brand must activate and must be applied to a susceptible monster; are you sure it happened?

Looks like this was the issue. Maybe it should be changed so you get penance for using the banned weapon brand at all.

[PleasingFungus]

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d0664e95f744

all the cases you mentioned should now give penance, both with normal attacks and with ripostes.

e:

the evil brand must activate and must be applied to a susceptible monster; are you sure it happened?

hm

e2: ok maybe fixed properly now.

[pubby]

Please make riposte trigger on shield blocks, even if the % to work is lower.

I want to riposte and tear. Riposte and tear your BIG GUTS.

[PleasingFungus]

what would the point of that be? what playstyle does 'triggering riposte on shield blocks' encourage?

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Using 1h weapons and shields and training the shield skill.

[nago]

what would the point of that be? what playstyle does 'triggering riposte on shield blocks' encourage?

Why is different from €
'equip "light armor" prefer ev and dodging?' playstile?

[pubby]

what would the point of that be? what playstyle does 'triggering riposte on shield blocks' encourage?

Keep in mind that SH gets checked before EV, meaning that blocking an attack prevents you from evading it.

The less you evade the less you riposte. So training shield skill actually lowers your damage output. That's silly.

[PleasingFungus]

what would the point of that be? what playstyle does 'triggering riposte on shield blocks' encourage?

Why is different from €
'equip "light armor" prefer ev and dodging?' playstile?

light vs heavy armour is a choice that depends on your stats (str/int/dex), how much spellcasting you want to do, how much you're interested in stabbing. there's a particular synergy there with the lbl/sbl crosstraining; both encourage light armour.

adding shield blocks into the mix dilutes and confuses that. it becomes not a question of 'm&f for heavy armour chars, lbl for light armour' but 'lbl for light armour or anyone using a shield or w/e, m&f for people using 2-handers, probably'. why would demon whips, eveningstars, triple swords exist under a 'riposte on block' system?

Keep in mind that SH gets checked before EV, meaning that blocking an attack prevents you from evading it.

The less you evade the less you riposte. So training shield skill actually lowers your damage output. That's silly.

we've talked about that, but is that an actual problem beyond the theoretical sense?

i mean, the exact same thing is true for training shield skill as a minotaur. does anyone recommend against using sh on minotaurs because it'll lower your retaliation damage?

[duvessa]

it becomes not a question of 'm&f for heavy armour chars, lbl for light armour'

Wait, this is the intended effect of riposte? To make weapon type choice a no-brainer? That's awful. Hopefully it doesn't end up like that in practice.

Probably EV should just be checked before SH, and reflection should not exist. That is a marginal buff to SH because of the SH falloff against multiple attacks, but overall it would solve more problems than it causes.

[Sandman25]

I have just tried a HEBe with long blades (found two +4 EV rings before Lair) and I don't see any difference. I would use leather armour no matter if riposte exists or not because that was better for my defenses. Maybe riposte would change armour for Minotaur or Human but it changes nothing for HE/DE/Ha/Te IMHO and those are species which are most interested in LBl.