The Tavern

I believe Orc Sorcerer is a bad monster in its current state. It is more dangerous than Ancient Lich (I will explain it later) but has very low HP and high EV (higher than Ancient Lich even). So depending on RNG you can kill it in 1-2 hits or die to it from full HP with no other monsters in view.

Why is it more dangerous than Ancient Lich?
If Ancient Lich has Paralysis, it also has the following spells:
Lightning Bolt (3d29)
Orb of Destruction (9d20)
Haste
It means that if player has rElec (and players often have rElec at the stage when Ancient Lich can be met), you can lure the Ancient Lich to a kill hole or even corridor and survive 6 turns paralysis there. Orb of Destruction deals 50% damage at range 1 so that 9d20 becomes 9d10 and due to using 9 rolls it is often close to 45 which is ok for late game.
Also note that due to lack of bolt spells except Lightning Bolt which deals pathetic damage with rElec you can lure Ancient Lich where you want before fighting with safety. Even if the monster casts Haste you can either teleport, haste yourself or use Silence via spell/scroll (Ancient Lich is the best monster for using scroll of Silence, so players don't save it but use it in advance)

Now Orc Sorcerer.
It has the following spells:
Bolt of Fire (3d17)
Bolt of Draining (3d17)
Summon Demon
Paralyse

You see? You already need rF+ and rN+ and the damage is not much less than that from Ancient Lich. But wait, the monster has Summon Demon, that's the most unpleasant part. It means you will need rElec (Sixfirhy), rCorr (Rust devil), rC+ (Ice devil) and even more rF+ (Sun demon). Of course you also need some MR+ items vs paralysis.
Don't you think it is a bit too many resists for Orc 2 where Orc Sorcerers can be met often?

I suggest to split Orc Sorcerers spells into two sets:

First set:
Paralysis
Bolt of Fire
Fireball
Sticky Flame

Second set:
Summon Demon
Bolt of Draining
Blink
Pain

Main idea is that player will not need all resistances at once when being paralyzed and when Orc Sorcerer has demons it will be more dangerous due to Blink but still manageable with good play even without MR items.

The first set seems too fire-centered to me, while in the second pain is certainly too low tier, probably agony power-wise or slow to have an hex in that book too would be better.
Overall I'd agree with the idea of reworking their spell set, but more because I prefer monster with different spell-sets than because I feel orc sorcer too powerful.

My idea was that player can swap to rF+ if attacked by fire spells and have a higher chance to survive paralysis if there are no other monsters in view. If there are some other monsters in view when paralyzed, the character still can die easily. If player does not have rF+, they should avoid the monster.

I didn't want to add Agony because that would be too cruel when you are trying to escape from those demons. Slow or Confuse might be better indeed.

Just checked Ogre Magi, they have similar pattern. If they have Paralysis, they have just a single bolt (Lightning) and no summons of course. So you still can isolate them and then use a single resistance to be relatively safe vs paralysis.

Blink to summoners is annoying at best, it just encourages players to run to a nearby stair or hole where he can secure the kill. Give it Slow instead.
Fireball doesnt work when theres too many orcs to use as shields, i would suggest some conjuration like IMB.

You can fight things without being resistant to all the damage types they use.

Do you mean it is a coincidence that Ancient Lich has 5 spell sets and those sets have either Summoning or cruel Hex (Paralysis, Petrify, Banishment) and never both?

The average roll of 9d10 is 49.5, broseph.

It's close to 45...

Can you please put me back on your ignore list?

I knew it was not 45 when I was writing that, I felt lazy to calculate exact value. Also I don't like that the guy is writing off topic in GDD thread which was started by me.

I agree about changing the orc sorcerer spellset, but I don't like the ones proposed. It seems spoilery, and if two orc sorcerers appear on screen at once it could be very annoying to keep track of which is which ("sorcerer one of the fire type, but he's out of range, so I should swap to rN to deal with the other sorcerer 2 squares away...."). On the other hand, I'd be more ok with splitting into two different monsters: say "firey orc sorcerer" and "painful orc sorcerer"

Orb spiders are fast instead of blinking. Everything else about them fits your description.

I mean that you're wrong about Orc Sorcerer being more dangerous than Ancient Liches (except by the Minmay Axiom that literally any monster occurring past mid-game is utterly meaningless because the player is invincible by then).

Orc Magician: 5 HP, Paralysis, Throw Flame, Throw Frost, Summon Demon

Old Lich: 200 HP, Paralysis, Crystal Spear

By your logic, the first of these is more dangerous, because it has a summon and "requires" more resistances. Oh no, what if it paralyses me and I'm not wearing every resist under the sun? But of course that's nonsense; the latter is vastly more powerful. Orc Sorcerers are scary, sure, but they're not hard to kill and their summons disappear when you do. Just avoid getting paralyzed in a bad situation; wear MR, and if the Sorc summons some nasty dudes, walk or teleport away. Reducing a solid and effective monster to a resistance check because you're afraid of paralysis does not improve it.

I think there is some misunderstanding here.
I am not comparing Orc Sorcerer to Ancient Lich which can have Crystal Spear, I am comparing it to Ancient Lich which has Paralysis in its spell set.

Do you think



vs paralyzed player is more dangerous than


? Also please take into account player HP/AC and gear, it should be much better vs Ancient Lich.

Absolutely.

e: I'm sure it's a coincidence that this thread was created just after you got killed by Orc Sorceror paralysis

Sorry, I guess I should link my game which triggered this thread. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20490
I attacked adjacent Orc Sorcerer, I had no other monsters in view, I was wearing all MR I could find (zero) and I am sure walk or teleport wouldn't help as I got paralyzed next turn after Sixwhirthy was summoned. But it is ireelevant, my point is that you can get paralyzed for 7 turns without any summons and then Orc Sorcerer will summon some nasty monsters or just will kill you with bolts from full HP.

I see. This is where we disagree I guess. I have yet to die to paralysis from Ancient Lich but I died to Orc Sorcerer at least 3 times.

The thread can be closed I think

If it was sarcasm, it was not necessary. Do you think it is a bad idea to start discussing monsters when player believes there is something wrong with them?

Edit. Sorry, I took my thank back from your post.

Sandman25: You are a good player, and you play a lot. That means you're bound to experience some rare deaths -- feel free to say and think "unfair" instead of "rare".

Like we discussed last time, such deaths are not problematic -- if they're rare enough. Instead, they help to increase the game's depth. If you want to argue that something (e.g. orc sorcerer) is unbalanced, you can therefore not argue with single incidents.

I think your problem is sixfirhies, not orc sorcerers. As other topics recently have pointed out, they are by a fair amount the most dangerous summon an orc sorcerer can have.

This is what I tried to do in OP.
I had impression that paralysis is treated as extremely dangerous thing and thus it is never combined with other extremely dangerous things like summons or multiple bolts. For instance, Ancient Lich with (fiends/hellions OR LCS/Iron shot) and paralysis might kill any character easily.
Orc Sorcerer is problematic because at this stage most players don't have both rF+ and rN+ for those bolts and even fewer can have rElec/rCorr/rC+.

Yes, removing sixfirhies from orc would be a good change

1. Sixfurries are too tough for a "4" demon. This has been discussed to death previously but not changed by devs yet.
2. 6-7 turn paralysis is horrible and unfun. This has been discussed to death before but devs have not capped paralysis duration yet.
3. Sandman gets salty when he dies.

This is a fine and memorable set of spells! Compare the annihilator spell set, which checks rElec, rPois, and SH:

Paralysis duration, like pretty much every other duration, is already capped and always has been.

It looks like some people are arguing the cap should be lower. Say, 5 turns. Thoughts?

My melee characters have actually died a couple times to the new changes with paralysis. The solution is not to approach an Orc Wizard with RM or RM+ maybe.

Just easier to toss a rock and backup around a corner.

I think the idea is to keep monsters spell sets relevant so they actually have an effect on the Player.

I think the problem with paralysis is that it can potentially kill you very dead depending on luck, and that rather than decreasing its deadliness the only resist simply decreases the chance of random death.
A character with rF+++ takes only 25% (?) damage from an OOF's fireball, but a character with "75% chance to resist" still has a 1-in-4 chance to be paralysed and potentially killed by an ancient lich rather than being paralysed for 1/4th as long.

Even a character with enough MR for 99% chance to resist still has a (vanishingly small) chance to die to paralysis, which is part of what makes it frustrating -- players who want to avoid risks still have to/want to avoid it as if they had no resistance at all. Rather than a dieroll system for something as impactful as paralysis I'd prefer an either-you-resist-or-you-don't thing, like the non-MR-checking but slow-casting Giant Eyeballs (or like using the long-gone Amulet of Stasis against paralysers).

That's one of the things with the hexes system. They are pretty much binary. You get affected or you don't. The monster gets affected or it doesn't.

I wouldn't like to see a special case for paralysis. I would also suggest that non-binary paralysis (duration decreases with MR) would likely be less impactful (i.e. less lethal), especially once one or two pips of MR are available.