Change Orc Sorcerer


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 30th June 2016, 13:49

Change Orc Sorcerer

I believe Orc Sorcerer is a bad monster in its current state. It is more dangerous than Ancient Lich (I will explain it later) but has very low HP and high EV (higher than Ancient Lich even). So depending on RNG you can kill it in 1-2 hits or die to it from full HP with no other monsters in view.

Why is it more dangerous than Ancient Lich?
If Ancient Lich has Paralysis, it also has the following spells:
Lightning Bolt (3d29)
Orb of Destruction (9d20)
Haste
It means that if player has rElec (and players often have rElec at the stage when Ancient Lich can be met), you can lure the Ancient Lich to a kill hole or even corridor and survive 6 turns paralysis there. Orb of Destruction deals 50% damage at range 1 so that 9d20 becomes 9d10 and due to using 9 rolls it is often close to 45 which is ok for late game.
Also note that due to lack of bolt spells except Lightning Bolt which deals pathetic damage with rElec you can lure Ancient Lich where you want before fighting with safety. Even if the monster casts Haste you can either teleport, haste yourself or use Silence via spell/scroll (Ancient Lich is the best monster for using scroll of Silence, so players don't save it but use it in advance)

Now Orc Sorcerer.
It has the following spells:
Bolt of Fire (3d17)
Bolt of Draining (3d17)
Summon Demon
Paralyse

You see? You already need rF+ and rN+ and the damage is not much less than that from Ancient Lich. But wait, the monster has Summon Demon, that's the most unpleasant part. It means you will need rElec (Sixfirhy), rCorr (Rust devil), rC+ (Ice devil) and even more rF+ (Sun demon). Of course you also need some MR+ items vs paralysis.
Don't you think it is a bit too many resists for Orc 2 where Orc Sorcerers can be met often?

I suggest to split Orc Sorcerers spells into two sets:

First set:
Paralysis
Bolt of Fire
Fireball
Sticky Flame

Second set:
Summon Demon
Bolt of Draining
Blink
Pain

Main idea is that player will not need all resistances at once when being paralyzed and when Orc Sorcerer has demons it will be more dangerous due to Blink but still manageable with good play even without MR items.

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Thursday, 30th June 2016, 14:08

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

The first set seems too fire-centered to me, while in the second pain is certainly too low tier, probably agony power-wise or slow to have an hex in that book too would be better.
Overall I'd agree with the idea of reworking their spell set, but more because I prefer monster with different spell-sets than because I feel orc sorcer too powerful.
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 30th June 2016, 14:14

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

My idea was that player can swap to rF+ if attacked by fire spells and have a higher chance to survive paralysis if there are no other monsters in view. If there are some other monsters in view when paralyzed, the character still can die easily. If player does not have rF+, they should avoid the monster.

I didn't want to add Agony because that would be too cruel when you are trying to escape from those demons. Slow or Confuse might be better indeed.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 30th June 2016, 14:24

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

Just checked Ogre Magi, they have similar pattern. If they have Paralysis, they have just a single bolt (Lightning) and no summons of course. So you still can isolate them and then use a single resistance to be relatively safe vs paralysis.

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Post Thursday, 30th June 2016, 14:27

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

Blink to summoners is annoying at best, it just encourages players to run to a nearby stair or hole where he can secure the kill. Give it Slow instead.
Fireball doesnt work when theres too many orcs to use as shields, i would suggest some conjuration like IMB.
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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 09:07

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

You can fight things without being resistant to all the damage types they use.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 10:52

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

Do you mean it is a coincidence that Ancient Lich has 5 spell sets and those sets have either Summoning or cruel Hex (Paralysis, Petrify, Banishment) and never both?

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 14:33

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

The average roll of 9d10 is 49.5, broseph.
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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 14:38

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

It's close to 45...

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 14:38

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

goodcoolguy wrote:The average roll of 9d10 is 49.5, broseph.


Can you please put me back on your ignore list?

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 14:39

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

Sar wrote:It's close to 45...


I knew it was not 45 when I was writing that, I felt lazy to calculate exact value. Also I don't like that the guy is writing off topic in GDD thread which was started by me.

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 15:48

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

I agree about changing the orc sorcerer spellset, but I don't like the ones proposed. It seems spoilery, and if two orc sorcerers appear on screen at once it could be very annoying to keep track of which is which ("sorcerer one of the fire type, but he's out of range, so I should swap to rN to deal with the other sorcerer 2 squares away...."). On the other hand, I'd be more ok with splitting into two different monsters: say "firey orc sorcerer" and "painful orc sorcerer"

Spoiler: show
I've always wanted a sort of fragile monster whose only spells are OOD and blink, particularly if they appear among crowds in a rocky place. It's sort of different from the currect conception of orc sorcerers though

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 17:18

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

phloomp wrote:I've always wanted a sort of fragile monster whose only spells are OOD and blink, particularly if they appear among crowds in a rocky place. It's sort of different from the currect conception of orc sorcerers though

Orb spiders are fast instead of blinking. Everything else about them fits your description.

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 17:18

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

I mean that you're wrong about Orc Sorcerer being more dangerous than Ancient Liches (except by the Minmay Axiom that literally any monster occurring past mid-game is utterly meaningless because the player is invincible by then).

Orc Magician: 5 HP, Paralysis, Throw Flame, Throw Frost, Summon Demon

Old Lich: 200 HP, Paralysis, Crystal Spear

By your logic, the first of these is more dangerous, because it has a summon and "requires" more resistances. Oh no, what if it paralyses me and I'm not wearing every resist under the sun? But of course that's nonsense; the latter is vastly more powerful. Orc Sorcerers are scary, sure, but they're not hard to kill and their summons disappear when you do. Just avoid getting paralyzed in a bad situation; wear MR, and if the Sorc summons some nasty dudes, walk or teleport away. Reducing a solid and effective monster to a resistance check because you're afraid of paralysis does not improve it.
Last edited by ontoclasm on Friday, 1st July 2016, 17:26, edited 2 times in total.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 17:24

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

I think there is some misunderstanding here.
I am not comparing Orc Sorcerer to Ancient Lich which can have Crystal Spear, I am comparing it to Ancient Lich which has Paralysis in its spell set.

Do you think

  Code:
Lightning Bolt (3d29)
Orb of Destruction (9d20)
Haste


vs paralyzed player is more dangerous than

  Code:
Bolt of Fire (3d17)
Bolt of Draining (3d17)
Summon Demon

? Also please take into account player HP/AC and gear, it should be much better vs Ancient Lich.
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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 17:25

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

Absolutely.

e: I'm sure it's a coincidence that this thread was created just after you got killed by Orc Sorceror paralysis
Last edited by ontoclasm on Friday, 1st July 2016, 17:31, edited 1 time in total.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 17:28

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

ontoclasm wrote: Just avoid getting paralyzed in a bad situation; wear MR, and if the Sorc summons some nasty dudes, walk or teleport away.


Sorry, I guess I should link my game which triggered this thread. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=20490
I attacked adjacent Orc Sorcerer, I had no other monsters in view, I was wearing all MR I could find (zero) and I am sure walk or teleport wouldn't help as I got paralyzed next turn after Sixwhirthy was summoned. But it is ireelevant, my point is that you can get paralyzed for 7 turns without any summons and then Orc Sorcerer will summon some nasty monsters or just will kill you with bolts from full HP.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 17:29

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

ontoclasm wrote:Absolutely.


I see. This is where we disagree I guess. I have yet to die to paralysis from Ancient Lich but I died to Orc Sorcerer at least 3 times.

The thread can be closed I think :(

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 17:33

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

ontoclasm wrote:e: I'm sure it's a coincidence that this thread was created just after you got killed by Orc Sorceror paralysis


If it was sarcasm, it was not necessary. Do you think it is a bad idea to start discussing monsters when player believes there is something wrong with them?

Edit. Sorry, I took my thank back from your post.

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 17:52

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

Sandman25: You are a good player, and you play a lot. That means you're bound to experience some rare deaths -- feel free to say and think "unfair" instead of "rare".

Like we discussed last time, such deaths are not problematic -- if they're rare enough. Instead, they help to increase the game's depth. If you want to argue that something (e.g. orc sorcerer) is unbalanced, you can therefore not argue with single incidents.

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 17:56

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

I think your problem is sixfirhies, not orc sorcerers. As other topics recently have pointed out, they are by a fair amount the most dangerous summon an orc sorcerer can have.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 17:58

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

dpeg wrote:If you want to argue that something (e.g. orc sorcerer) is unbalanced, you can therefore not argue with single incidents.


This is what I tried to do in OP.
I had impression that paralysis is treated as extremely dangerous thing and thus it is never combined with other extremely dangerous things like summons or multiple bolts. For instance, Ancient Lich with (fiends/hellions OR LCS/Iron shot) and paralysis might kill any character easily.
Orc Sorcerer is problematic because at this stage most players don't have both rF+ and rN+ for those bolts and even fewer can have rElec/rCorr/rC+.
Last edited by Sandman25 on Friday, 1st July 2016, 18:01, edited 2 times in total.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 17:59

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

crate wrote:I think your problem is sixfirhies, not orc sorcerers. As other topics recently have pointed out, they are by a fair amount the most dangerous summon an orc sorcerer can have.


Yes, removing sixfirhies from orc would be a good change

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 20:02

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

1. Sixfurries are too tough for a "4" demon. This has been discussed to death previously but not changed by devs yet.
2. 6-7 turn paralysis is horrible and unfun. This has been discussed to death before but devs have not capped paralysis duration yet.
3. Sandman gets salty when he dies.

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Post Friday, 1st July 2016, 23:52

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

Sandman25 wrote:First set:
Paralysis
Bolt of Fire
Fireball
Sticky Flame

This is a fine and memorable set of spells! Compare the annihilator spell set, which checks rElec, rPois, and SH:
Lightning Bolt
LCS
Blink
Iron Shot
Poison Arrow

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 2nd July 2016, 02:38

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

Paralysis duration, like pretty much every other duration, is already capped and always has been.

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Post Saturday, 2nd July 2016, 15:35

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

It looks like some people are arguing the cap should be lower. Say, 5 turns. Thoughts?

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Post Sunday, 3rd July 2016, 19:40

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

My melee characters have actually died a couple times to the new changes with paralysis. The solution is not to approach an Orc Wizard with RM or RM+ maybe.

Just easier to toss a rock and backup around a corner.

I think the idea is to keep monsters spell sets relevant so they actually have an effect on the Player.

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Post Monday, 4th July 2016, 17:44

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:It looks like some people are arguing the cap should be lower. Say, 5 turns. Thoughts?


I think the problem with paralysis is that it can potentially kill you very dead depending on luck, and that rather than decreasing its deadliness the only resist simply decreases the chance of random death.
A character with rF+++ takes only 25% (?) damage from an OOF's fireball, but a character with "75% chance to resist" still has a 1-in-4 chance to be paralysed and potentially killed by an ancient lich rather than being paralysed for 1/4th as long.

Even a character with enough MR for 99% chance to resist still has a (vanishingly small) chance to die to paralysis, which is part of what makes it frustrating -- players who want to avoid risks still have to/want to avoid it as if they had no resistance at all. Rather than a dieroll system for something as impactful as paralysis I'd prefer an either-you-resist-or-you-don't thing, like the non-MR-checking but slow-casting Giant Eyeballs (or like using the long-gone Amulet of Stasis against paralysers).

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Post Monday, 4th July 2016, 17:52

Re: Change Orc Sorcerer

That's one of the things with the hexes system. They are pretty much binary. You get affected or you don't. The monster gets affected or it doesn't.

I wouldn't like to see a special case for paralysis. I would also suggest that non-binary paralysis (duration decreases with MR) would likely be less impactful (i.e. less lethal), especially once one or two pips of MR are available.

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