Hydra head chopping (was: Riposte)

[MainiacJoe]

The hydra head cutting thing is the only thing that keeps hydras from being generic meat bags.

[Shard1697]

So is it ok that they 100% are generic meat bags if you're M&F user? Or axes user who picks up morningstar that has crosstraining? Or polearms user with trident(all polearms users)? Or any ranged/magic character? Why punish long blades user(or axes user who doesn't know the mechanic, so doesn't know to haul around M&F weapon for awhile)?

Nothing else in the whole game cares about what 'type' of physical damage you do. The game's just not built around it at all.
Make them regrow heads for every weapon(You crush the hydra's head into a pulp! The hydra grows two new heads from the mangled stump!), or no weapons.

[Dracunos]

So is it ok that they 100% are generic meat bags if you're M&F user? Or axes user who picks up morningstar that has crosstraining? Or polearms user with trident(all polearms users)? Or any ranged/magic character? Why punish long blades user(or axes user who doesn't know the mechanic, so doesn't know to haul around M&F weapon for awhile)?

Nothing else in the whole game cares about what 'type' of physical damage you do. The game's just not built around it at all.
Make them regrow heads for every weapon(You crush the hydra's head into a pulp! The hydra grows two new heads from the mangled stump!), or no weapons.

Hydras are honestly the best monster in the early game for me. I know they aren't 'fair', and but people seem to wish that all monsters were simply a collection of stats and a tile.

If nothing else, we need more creatures like hydras to offer interesting mechanics to the game. I know it's not interesting to you anymore, but this is kind of what roguelikes are all about. Hydras are strong against low AC characters, and against using non flaming slashing attacks. If your character has one or both of those traits, he has a very different experience facing hydras. That's a GOOD thing. If your character has low ac and mediocre ev, and uses m&f (sorry for using a non optimal build as an example, but they do exist and are relevant), he still may prefer to simply run from hydras regardless of not using slashing weapons. Or perhaps that character finds a flaming sword. He still can't handle a hydra normally, but because he found a certain type of item that happens to be a hydra's weakness, he now has a new tactic to use against this monster that may work. That adds dimension to the game.

Sometimes you may have a certain build or certain luck that means that hydras are not a threat to you at all. Again, more dimension to the game. I'd rather have some creatures be more difficult for certain builds and less difficult for others. I thought that was kinda the whole point of having all these options in a game.

There are a lot of situations like these, where for certain builds a monster will be completely trivial, but other builds get 'punished' by not having the best build for the creature. The biggest different I can find here is that hydras are sufficiently early in the game that you won't have nearly as many options to taking care of them.

I'd like to hear if you have any suggestions for improvements for hydras, but simply taking away everything that's interesting about them isn't really an improvement, imo. Everything that you said in argument against hydras is honestly a really good argument for having hydras in a roguelike game. It almost sounds like you've dealt with it so many times that it's not interesting to you anymore. It's really interesting for me, though, and I believe it is for many other people as well.

Sorry for the thread hijack. This is better.

[Sar]

wow this thread

[Sandman25]

I've heard two opinions before:
1) Every playstyle except ranged launcher should be viable all game (example: berserker should be fine as pure melee).
2) Every character must have at least 2 ways of killing things (example: ghost moth, iron giant, spriggan air mage, curse skull, orb of fire)
Not sure what devs think.

If second approach is preferred and that's why Hydra is harder to kill with long blade unless it is flaming, then we can add more monsters like this:
1) Magic Golem. Gets 25% damage from spells.
2) Magic Vampire. Heals to 100% every time it is hit with magic
3) Melee Golem. Gets 25% damage from melee
4) Melee Vampire. Heals to 100% every time it is hit with melee
5) Ranged Golem. Gets 25% damage from missiles
6) Ranged Vampire. Heals to 100% every time it is hit with missiles

[Sar]

You absolutely can kill hydras with non-flaming blades, I've done it plenty. Sometimes I did it the first time entering Lair, even.

[Sandman25]

Thanks, I edited my message to use better wording.

[Sar]

Why must everything be symmetrical?

[Sandman25]

I am not suggesting to add all those monsters.

[MainiacJoe]

Why must everything be symmetrical?

This actually is my main point re hydras. Plus it's fun IMO to have a scary monster.

[Dracunos]

I've heard two opinions before:
1) Every playstyle except ranged launcher should be viable all game (example: berserker should be fine as pure melee).
2) Every character must have at least 2 ways of killing things (example: ghost moth, iron giant, spriggan air mage, curse skull, orb of fire)
Not sure what devs think.

I think having more than one method of killing stuff is not a requirement but very helpful. But as it is, a lot of very dangerous mobs you can run from. And running from monsters being an appropriate and viable option is definitely part of the core design of the game imo. I kinda see your point; "Sigh, I picked axes, so I guess that means I need to pick up a crosstrained mace on the way if I don't find flame, sigh.". But for me it's "Great, a decent weapon! I guess I'm going swords this game.. Oh yeah, that means I need to figure out a way to take care of hydras by lair, maybe I'll put a few points in evo." Or better yet, completely forget about hydras until I first see them and ending up needing to run or figure out another solution (fun!).

If second approach is preferred and that's why Hydra is harder to kill with long blade unless it is flaming, then we can add more monsters like this:
{snip}

I think it would be very interesting if there was a creature, let's say in depths, that did not take any damage from basic melee. Maybe give him some melee based weakness, like piercing type attacks can deal limited damage to him (including ranged attacks), or perhaps if your weapon is branded with an elemental attack then some small amount of elemental damage goes through, or something like that akin to flame brand for hydras. By depths, I doubt anyone would really complain about this for the most part, since you'll have so many options for taking out enemies by then. You likely wouldn't even need to specifically prepare for this monster. But occasionally some builds may be forced to simply avoid.

I think this is pretty similar to the hydra concept, and I personally like the idea of it (though it may have flaws I haven't considered). I'm curious if anyone would feel that this was an inherently unreasonable monster to have in the game due to the unfairness for different builds.

The problem with hydras being so early, is that you're far from being guaranteed a viable method of killing them by the time you start seeing them. You're far more likely to be able to take them on if you are prepared, and have crawl experience (which is cool in a way), but that also kinda requires spoilers. On the other hand, even without spoilers or any preparation for hydras at all, you can generally run from them pretty easily in my experience. A hydra-heavy l:$ with a weak-to-hydras character might not be the same, though. I've never experienced that. But having to skip a branch's end until you're ready and move on to the next branch is a reasonable tactic as well. All these things are part of what makes them interesting and a small part of what keeps the game from feeling like exactly the same game over and over. I can understand what people don't like about hydras, but I just feel like what they bring to the table far outweighs the negatives.

[Sandman25]

I don't like hydras because Swamp exists, entering Swamp after Vaults 4 seems weird.
Maybe I would be happier if Nagas were taking less damage from Long Blades, Spiders from M&F and Merfolks from Polearms. I am sure we can invent some flavor for that.

[duvessa]

The head chopping/regrowth doesn't make hydras any less of "generic meat bags". The meaningfully unique thing about hydras is, and has always been, that they have many melee attacks, making AC good and SH bad against them. Decide for yourself whether that's enough to keep them in the game or not, but the head regrowth is a complete red herring - remember that if your character can't kill hydras you can just avoid them.

[Shard1697]

Why must everything be symmetrical?

This actually is my main point re hydras. Plus it's fun IMO to have a scary monster.

They're not actually a scary monster once you learn you can just zap them with a generic damage wand like flame or iceblast or whatever, on any character. Which is still a good idea if they do not regrow, because they are a relatively heavy melee enemy.

if hydras still exist but do not lose/regrow heads, it doesn't actually change how you approach them that much, and the ways you deal with them that are lost are not very interesting. Unless you think hauling around an extra weapon just because of one enemy is good and interesting. Did you like doing that for old jellies, as well? And just to be clear here: the situations where you should actually be scared of hydra are mostly the same with and without the regrowing. It doesn't really change any situation you would be comfortable with hydra into one where they're actually scary, it just makes you go "oh, forgot about this shit, better go back upstairs to grab a trident because this monster has rGlaive".

Arbitrarily limiting the player to using certain things based on flavor is pretty bad in terms of playability. I'm real glad that Crawl is not going to feature a monster in depths that takes no melee damage, except from piercing branded weapons, because I don't want to sigh, hit ctrl-f and search the whole dungeon for a vorpal weapon to haul around until I'm done with depths. That's stupid.

The head chopping/regrowth doesn't make hydras any less of "generic meat bags". The meaningfully unique thing about hydras is, and has always been, that they have many melee attacks, making AC good and SH bad against them. Decide for yourself whether that's enough to keep them in the game or not, but the head regrowth is a complete red herring - remember that if your character can't kill hydras you can just avoid them.

Yes, thank you. Character that needs to consider what to do vs. hydras is not really slashing-weapon user who can ctrl-f other crosstrained weapon or zap common wand while standing next to them, it's low AC character, who needs to be careful about ever standing next to them regardless of weapon, and this does not change if they do not lose heads.

[Dracunos]

I really don't feel like having to 'lug' around an alternate method of dealing damage because a particular creature has an invulnerability or is strong to your damage type or whatever is all that horrible? Or ruins the experience of the game somehow? How is that possibly a bad thing, the whole game is about picking junk up off the floor and using it when/if you need it :p hydras are a problem and sometimes the solution is to pick up a wand... Or any number of a million other possible hydra solutions.

If there was literally a monster that forced you into a very specific solution and you had no other options, maybe I'd agree. But as it stands it's a monster that may need to be approached differently than other monsters. I think that's great.

Simply the act of having to remember to pick up a damage wand for a particular tough monster and carrying it and using it because I occasionally need to is actually more fun than just mindlessly tabbing all day for every creature until your tab stop hits then walking away.

I like having options, and definitely like the game encouraging me to use different options based on the problem at hand. Again, that is exactly why I enjoy roguelikes.

[Shard1697]

Having options is good. Arbitrarily making a monster more dangerous based on 'slashing' damage is not.

I really don't feel like having to 'lug' around an alternate method of dealing damage because a particular creature has an invulnerability or is strong to your damage type or whatever is all that horrible? Or ruins the experience of the game somehow?

It doesn't ruin the whole game, it just adds absolutely nothing except a bit of tedium.

Simply the act of having to remember to pick up a damage wand for a particular tough monster and carrying it and using it because I occasionally need to is actually more fun than just mindlessly tabbing all day for every creature until your tab stop hits then walking away.

I like having options, and definitely like the game encouraging me to use different options based on the problem at hand. Again, that is exactly why I enjoy roguelikes.

But you should still be picking up those wands even if you're not dealing with hydras, or if hydras do not regrow heads. You are encouraged to use them regardless, it has not much to do with head chopping.

[CanOfWorms]

I really don't feel like having to 'lug' around an alternate method of dealing damage because a particular creature has an invulnerability or is strong to your damage type or whatever is all that horrible?

it is, that's why the devs removed amulets of clarity/stasis/rmut. having to carrying around an item (that is otherwise useless) that deals with an extremely narrow slice of the game is bad

[Aean]

Alternatively, could just keep hydra head regeneration for the variety and flavor...but give them normal or slow health regeneration instead of faster health regeneration. Then they keep what makes them interesting, what makes them more than generic bags of meat, but they're more susceptible to other combat tactics.

[dpeg]

Hydras are fine.

[Dracunos]

It doesn't ruin the whole game, it just adds absolutely nothing except a bit of tedium.

It's obvious that we experience very different things when engaging in the exact same activity. Having a monster that is strong to certain things makes the game more interesting for me. When I have to think of different ways than simply tabbing and occasionally walking away (like I do for most everything else with a melee guy) to take care of a specific type of enemy, that's interesting.

When I face a hydra and my main attack type is longsword, and I have to go 'oh wait, I can't just hit tab here like with everything else, let me check my inventory for another way of solving this problem'. That, in my mind, is the core and the very spirit of what roguelikes are about. Getting an iceblast wand or whatever has more meaning for me when I know my main weapon isn't the best solution for every possible battle in the game. Although it kinda is anyway, sadly. I don't even need to touch a single wand or anything on most pure melee guys, they just make things a bit easier. But any solution I've ever used a wand for I could have solved just fine with only my main weapon. That's a bad thing, imo.

I have definitely ended up in lair without having anything sufficient for taking out hydras, and that makes lair an entirely different experience from other playthroughs. The fact that this can rarely happen on an otherwise tough melee character adds to the game for me.

it is, that's why the devs removed amulets of clarity/stasis/rmut. having to carrying around an item (that is otherwise useless) that deals with an extremely narrow slice of the game is bad

Again, we're talking as though there's only one solution to hydras, and if you don't have it, you're screwed. And you need to carry around special hydra repellent for hydras. That would certainly make a bad mechanic.

But realistically, the number of solutions to hydras is probably well over 75% of the methods available to deal damage. It's not forcing you to carry around otherwise useless hydra repellent. It simply forces you to have more than a single solitary method for dealing damage. It forces you to think a bit more than simply tabbing. If anything, we need more mechanics like this to give more weight to your choices in the game. The only reason that you might feel like you're carrying around an alternative method of dealing damage 'just for hydras', is because sadly hydras are the only monsters with an interesting enough interaction with melee damage types to actually force you to change your approach.


(((DISCLAIMER: I play Nethack)))

[infinitevox]

Or maybe have unarmed not create more heads, as UC doesn't crosstrain with anything?

[Floodkiller]

Is it an option to just make it so slicing off a hydra's head with a non-flaming weapon doesn't heal it?

[Hurkyl]

But realistically, the number of solutions to hydras is probably well over 75% of the methods available to deal damage. It's not forcing you to carry around otherwise useless hydra repellent. It simply forces you to have more than a single solitary method for dealing damage. It forces you to think a bit more than simply tabbing. If anything, we need more mechanics like this to give more weight to your choices in the game. The only reason that you might feel like you're carrying around an alternative method of dealing damage 'just for hydras', is because sadly hydras are the only monsters with an interesting enough interaction with melee damage types to actually force you to change your approach.

And that's why it's a bad mechanic.

So long as hydras are the only monster with this mechanic, the game would be better off without it.

I reserve judgement on whether the game would also be better off with more monsters with the mechanic. I've certainly considered proposing such a change, but I also recognize that if the gameplay 'solution' to the mechanic is having to repeatedly toggle a cosmetic change then it's a bad one.

[dpeg]

Hydra is just one monster, but it can occur in large quantities (if Swamp is rolled). Also Summon Hydra and, to a lesser extent, hydra form. Bonus: the Lernean Hydra.

Hydras are really fine. Everything in Crawl can be improved, including hydras. But they're certainly not the monster demanding any changes right now.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

we still don't have your list of things that need to change in Crawl, so unfortunately we are in the dark about your priorities

[dpeg]

Hbg: My list is not really the important one, but I some weeks ago I made a c-r-d mail with some topics. These were: Single account for online play. Halfling removal [obsolete]. Ranged reform (Lasty). Luring. No more death from drowning [obsolete]. Try Elf:3 and/or Crypt:3 as portal levels (i.e. only one attempt). An idea by regretindex I like a lot: branch roulette between Pan and Hell.

For me, luring is the single most aggravating thing in Crawl, by far: everyone has to do it, it's very strong, very boring and very time-consuming. I'd love to try something against it.

[njvack]

No more death from drowning [obsolete]

nooooooooooooooooo

[phloomp]

I believe that incentivizing the player to kill off hydras in a single engagement is interesting. So why not do this:

• Any player action that damages the hydra has an equal chance to remove a head
• Hydras gain no HP upon losing-gaining a head
• Hydras keep all non-head-gaining-related mechanics (regeneration, fast in water)

The point of making it "every player action" rather than "every damage source" is that I think extra head-losing from (for example) Dithmenos' shadow attacks, spectral weapon, cloud attacks, minotaur counterattacks or riposte would be hard for the player to predict.

This leaves one kind of attack that totally negates hydra head-growing, namely cloud attacks. That's a major flaw in this proposal since it would be really lame to incentivize luring all hydras through clouds.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

has anyone tried fixing the "monsters stop shouting after turn 1" bug, dpeg?

[dpeg]

Hbg: Yes, what I have in mind is about noise and alerting monsters.

[dynast]

Everything that isnt problematic is trivial and should be removed either way. You cant win with these people.

[dowan]

I find it odd that long blades, axes, one type of staff, 2h polearms, and UC with high enough claws mutation have 1 special monster that they are worse against. Meanwhile, M&F has no special monsters, ranged weapons have no special monster, and short blades have no special monster. If monsters having special reactions to certain types of melee damage were a thing anywhere else in the entire game it might make a little sense, but they don't.

Is it a big problem? No, I guess not, once you know how to deal with them they're usually easy enough to deal with. But what do they add to the game? Some vaguely mythology based flavor? I mean, it's so special cased that there's a special mention of hydras on flame branded slashing weapons, are any other monsters specifically mentioned in any other weapon descriptions?

I think if the head loss/growth mechanic was lost, and everything else kept the same, hydras would be fine, because they're already fine for M&F wielding characters anyway, right?

[genericpseudonym]

Hbg: My list is not really the important one, but I some weeks ago I made a c-r-d mail with some topics. These were: Single account for online play. Halfling removal [obsolete]. Ranged reform (Lasty). Luring. No more death from drowning [obsolete]. Try Elf:3 and/or Crypt:3 as portal levels (i.e. only one attempt). An idea by regretindex I like a lot: branch roulette between Pan and Hell.

For me, luring is the single most aggravating thing in Crawl, by far: everyone has to do it, it's very strong, very boring and very time-consuming. I'd love to try something against it.

When you remove halflings you have to change kobolds to have 0 across the board for weapon skills. I want to play a small-size longsword character for better EV and more cool ripostes.

Actually just change them now. Why are kobolds good with maces but no other weapons?

[joyousshower]

I kinda like hydras and I don't think there needs to be so much symmetry in the game that every monster has to more or less be like the other. I guess I feel like the changes recently have been tending to destroy some of the flavor of the game, and I really don't think hydra's are that big of a deal. I think I had the most trouble with them with troll monks, but even then lignifications generally worked, or just running the hell away, though I admit that can be tricky sometimes. Still...

[Arrhythmia]

I guess I feel like the changes recently have been tending to destroy some of the flavor of the game

Stick around longer and you'll realize that this has never actually happened.

[savageorange]

One change recently, I think is pretty weird flavour-wise (EMERGENCY FLIGHT MODE). Otherwise, yeah, I can't think of any (I've been playing since 0.10) .

[joyousshower]

I never really understood why deep water was an instant death, but I thought it was kinda fun, but I really don't see how lava is not considered an instant death. I also actually thought it was kinda funny how much damage juggernauts used to do, but maybe it was too much, still was kind of a neat aspect. That's just 2 recent ones off the top of my head.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

From a flavor perspective, hydra head chopping is really silly and aggravating. Grr just aim at the body or mess its face, why are you so dumb you dumb PC. How is it that exactly one head is chopped at a time? Why do weaker blows deal less damage if they still achieve the same effect - decapitation? How do hydra heads grow while the hydra is petrified or paralyzed? And of course there's no reason not to chop your pet hydras to increase their head count and to heal them in the middle of combat, but monsters never do it.

Head chopping is also inconsistent with new Hydra Form mechanics, if you care about flavor.

Sideways proposal: hydra heads can be chopped off (prob more rarely) "but contrary to popular misconception" (put that in the description!) never grow back (or take ages - Prune-time - to do so).

[joyousshower]

A hydra is typically a large creature, which you would encounter the heads long before the body. It makes sense to try and chop off a head, or if you were to "know" cauterize the wound. Didn't you read any greek mythology

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Head-chopping/slicing really does not noticeably increase the danger level of hydras. Given their speed they are really only scary if they generate right next to stairs, or I guess if you get caught out of position in swamp.

Extending the head-growing to all damage taken wouldn't change much. In practice I expect it would lead to:
1) More hydra avoiding from weaker characters.
2) Hydras would be become more dangerous for move delay >10 aut characters. Na tend to have decent AC and HP, and of course escape tools, spells, summons, wands, hexes and all that still exist. Chei, well...
3) A number of deaths from people who didn't notice the change and didn't pay enough attention to the combat feedback.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Imagine you had a +10 vamp sword that gave your enemies might and healed them.

Head-chopping/slicing really does not noticeably increase the danger level of hydras

There is a contradiction here IMHO.

I beg to differ. The reason why head chopping doesn't increase danger level is because it's completely avoidable.

Imagine another fictional monster that is like a yak, but it goes berserk when poisoned. Even if poison magic, needles or a venom weapon were your main method of killing monsters, you just wouldn't use them. Any non-venom weapon would be preferred. If you had only venom weapons of your main trained type, you'd just pick any ego of anything that crosstrains. I would say that monster is at best insignificantly more dangerous than an ordinary yak.

[ydeve]

Hydras are already dangerous without the head chopping. And now you're being forced to use an inferior weapon. And the increase in danger level is insignificant?

Edit: long blades crosstrain with ... short blades.

[njvack]

Mod note: I tried to split the "hey how do I kill hydras" parts of this thread into a topic in Advice, and I think I deleted a bunch of posts in the process. Sorry about that :/

[Arrhythmia]

Mod note: I tried to split the "hey how do I kill hydras" parts of this thread into a topic in Advice, and I think I deleted a bunch of posts in the process. Sorry about that :/

you put them here you maniac

[njvack]

No, that's just one page of them. I lost the ones from the second page of this thread. phpBB is terrible.

[Arrhythmia]

No, that's just one page of them. I lost the ones from the second page of this thread. phpBB is terrible.

yeah, you've got one page in GDD (this thread), half a page in DCA (the thread you wanted to create), and half a page in GDD (that i linked)

[njvack]

Thank you! I believe it's all sorted properly now, and instead of this thread being cluttered with advice, it's cluttered with meta