card proposal The Torch

[HardboiledGargoyle]

The Torch

The card depicts a hand reaching out to a red barrel with a burning torch.

Drawing this card creates a fire hazard, sets a target on fire, or both.

It is usually found in decks of destruction.

Plain: smite-target a monster to apply either sticky flame or inner flame (50/50 random chance)
Ornate: smite-target a monster to apply both sticky flame and inner flame
Legendary: smite-target a monster to apply sticky flame; also, scroll of immolation effect
(Players don't know which power level they got until after they have targeted a monster)

remove scroll of immolation

[Sar]

remove scroll of immolation

this is going to be a very popular proposal

[goodcoolguy]

Can it be possible? That the gargoyle has not heard in his forum that cards are dead?

The deed is still more distant from them than the most distant stars -- yet they have done it themselves.

[kroki]

remove scroll of immolation

this is going to be a very popular proposal

why though? immolation is a very powerful effect in 3 rune game. with rf++ you can use it in melee most of times

[Shard1697]

that's the joke

[PleasingFungus]

sar was making a joke, I believe. in reality, that part of the proposal will not be popular at all.

I'm not really sure why you'd need to remove immolation, though? It doesn't seem like there's overwhelming overlap between the scroll & the card effect, especially given that decks no longer randomly generate.

[Arrhythmia]

i like how the barrel is red, so you know it's expolosive.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

the strong reason to remove immolation the scroll is that it's a very niche effect, and having to keep it in mind throughout every single game lest you forget is terrible, so it should be removed from scrolls because the scrolls are available to every character in just about every game. But it is also a very neat and fun and potentially dangerous effect, and thus makes for the perfect card.

[nago]

Well most scrolls have "niche" effects and differently from ?immo most are very strong too.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

well some scrolls are similar to ?immo in that sense and should be removed too

However, effects like blink and tele and enchant are simple and don't require the trickiness immo does; fog can be finnicky, but effectively reducing your LOS to 2 is a benefit that is often an easily measurable one; summoning gives generic allies which is not niche at all.

this is a pretty important parameter for something you have to think about for hours each game but can only use sparingly, and immo fails by it

[milski]

well some scrolls are similar to ?immo in that sense and should be removed too

However, effects like blink and tele and enchant are simple and don't require the trickiness immo does; fog can be finnicky, but effectively reducing your LOS to 2 is a benefit that is often an easily measurable one; summoning gives generic allies which is not niche at all.

this is a pretty important parameter for something you have to think about for hours each game but can only use sparingly, and immo fails by it

So Immo is bad because it's the one scroll that uniquely sets up interesting decisions?

[HardboiledGargoyle]

yes, that is another way of putting it (though you gloss over a bit)

Immo is bad because it requires a unique setup to work but is very limited in quantity

lightning wand is bad for the same reason: doublezap and bouncing is interesting, but I don't want to get into the double-zap mindset just to spend a handful of wand charges more efficiently. Lightning bolt should only be a spell.

old immo (plain explosion at your location) was honestly a better scroll, despite being less interesting

[Sar]

what the

[duvessa]

scroll of immolation is basically useless and should be removed

wand of lightning isn't related at all, since, for one thing, it's actually useful, but the game would still be better without it IMO

[Arrhythmia]

yeah, but have you considered, that ?immo is extremely cool and fun?

[removeelyvilon]

sar was making a joke, I believe. in reality, that part of the proposal will not be popular at all.

I'm not really sure why you'd need to remove immolation, though? It doesn't seem like there's overwhelming overlap between the scroll & the card effect, especially given that decks no longer randomly generate.

But since when did the popularity of features matter to anyone?

[duvessa]

How is ?immolation cool? It's a useless scroll that duplicates the effect of a useless spell. At least the spell doesn't take up slots in your inventory before you identify it.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

what is your idea of cool and fun that exists and should not be removed?

[Arrhythmia]

How is ?immolation cool? It's a useless scroll that duplicates the effect of a useless spell. At least the spell doesn't take up slots in your inventory before you identify it.

they all blow up and the blood and chunks and fire go everywhere is how it's cool

[PlatinumSpider]

Immo isn't useless at all, it's a great way to quickly clear a packed room, and my favorite way to kill The Royal Jelly.

[archaeo]

the strong reason to remove immolation the scroll is that it's a very niche effect, and having to keep it in mind throughout every single game lest you forget is terrible, so it should be removed from scrolls because the scrolls are available to every character in just about every game.

what is your idea of cool and fun that exists and should not be removed?

I think duvessa is just extending the principle you seem to be applying to consumables to the entire game, and their position is the one that makes more sense to me.

I'd argue that a group of objects that are available to every character in nearly every game is the perfect place for some diversity. I could probably sit down and list most of the scrolls and potions, if you forced me to, even though there are potions and scrolls I nearly never use. Keeping ?immo in mind usually isn't such a cognitive burden to me, especially since it pops up every time I open the (r)ead menu. I certainly couldn't list even a half-dozen cards, much less how they all work at different power levels, and you want to burden that system with yet another card?

I've always read duvessa & co. as saying that there's a cognitive cost to having so much stuff in the game and that it'd be better if you removed a lot of it (there's also the costs for developers, which is another argument for another thread). I wouldn't go as far as them, but I certainly think that Crawl's complexity usually frustrates my interests in playing a lot more often than the presence of niche consumables.

[duvessa]

what is your idea of cool and fun that exists and should not be removed?

Cleave is a great feature; if you have berserk in conjunction with it, then it changes how you play relatively often and gives a weapon class something unique. Freeze is an interesting spell. Demigods are a good species that always gives more interesting strategy decisions than the rest of the species in the game (although they were much more interesting with their old stat gain), even if they are a little overpowered.
Immolation, on the other hand, has been a glorified scroll of paper ever since it was changed.

[Shard1697]

It's fun and cool to watch a whole bunch of dudes explode into gibs at once, though.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

I don't think it's my idea that duvessa is extending, since I like the immo effect.
Imagine you have all your options out on a dashboard while playing. Movement is one option, melee is another option, casting blink is another, and so on.
Scroll of immolation is one other button, constantly present on your dashboard, competing with all of your other options. Every time you open the (r)ead menu, having ?immo in there detracts some of your attention. And if you're not duvessa, it takes much longer to gauge whether/how useful immo is at the moment or in the near future. Yet what you get out of all that contemplation is a mere handful of uses, at most.
This is the part where you shrug at my delineation and just say that you're not personally bothered by it. On the other hand, I'm willing to read a post about how Crawl's complexity frustrates your interest in playing it, because I have no idea what you're talking about.
How do you even use scrolls? Wait until you get into a tight spot, press "r", and just pick a scroll that would work? If that was the only way one could use consumables, you'd have a point, but consumables allow and demand a different, more nuanced approach.