Bye bye victory dancing


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 18:04

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

XuaXua: I have been wondering if changing the skill level gain message would help. I think yours is an improvement.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 18:09

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

I prefer Automated over Automatic.
While I understand the precedent behind the name, I don't like the term "Selected".

Automated vs. Specified
Automated vs. Assigned
Automated vs. Designated
Automated vs. Preferred
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 18:13

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

XuaXua wrote:"Prior use and current experience trains {SKILL_NAME} to Level {LEVEL}!"


dpeg wrote:XuaXua: I have been wondering if changing the skill level gain message would help. I think yours is an improvement.


Thank you, I think It would help, but I am not smitten with what I wrote.

"and current experience" seems ugly, and overall the sentence appears too long. I already replaced "increases" with the more appropriate "trains".

Replace "and current experience trains" with "and current training increases" ? No; "training increases" is one character longer than "experience trains".

EDIT: SWAPPING WORKS!

"Experience and prior use trains {SKILL_NAME} to Level {LEVEL}."
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Zot Zealot

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 19:27

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

So far, after a couple of hours of solid playing with this, I have to admit I don't get it.

The feedback with all the percentages is interesting and (admittedly) useful, especially when you're trying to obtain a new skill. But I am finding I spend even more time poring over the 'm' screen, fretting over distribution. The distribution is more realistic I guess, and you can control it by switching skills off, just gotta remember to switch them back on again :oops:

This is almost certianly just anxiety brought on by newness. But then, I think I was the only person who actually thought victory dancing made sense :P
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 19:35

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

I'm a little confused here. How does Manual work? Could I like, turn on Poison skill, and then train it without casting any Poison magic? What happens (in both modes) if I turn off all skills?

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 19:57

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

Manual is just like 0.8 and before -- turn on the skills that you want to actively practice, turn off the ones that you don't (with the realization that even turned-off skills sometimes get trained). But you can't turn on a skill that you don't have yet, any more than you could in previous versions. The old method of bootstrapping skills still applies -- you have to use them.

Turning off all skills, in either mode, makes everything subjected to the 25% rule (or whatever the percentage chance is). That is all.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 20:30

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

I'm playing my first game on the new skill system.

I'm wondering, is there any chance that it's affected Sif Muna's piety gain?

I found a reasonably early temple and joined Sif. Now I'm only at ** piety at XL:10 - I'm feeling like normally I'd be at around **** by this point. It could be my imagination, or the fact that I'd normally be victory dancing my low-level magics up a bit more (I'm just using automatic to see how it goes). But I thought it was worth checking whether the changes could have made a difference?

Otherwise it seems great, although it feels a little weird sometimes :)

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 20:57

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

mumra wrote:I'm playing my first game on the new skill system.

I'm wondering, is there any chance that it's affected Sif Muna's piety gain?

I found a reasonably early temple and joined Sif. Now I'm only at ** piety at XL:10 - I'm feeling like normally I'd be at around **** by this point. It could be my imagination, or the fact that I'd normally be victory dancing my low-level magics up a bit more (I'm just using automatic to see how it goes). But I thought it was worth checking whether the changes could have made a difference?

Otherwise it seems great, although it feels a little weird sometimes :)


If you're using automatic, you're probably siphoning quite a bit towards passive skills that would otherwise be mindlessly victory danced away into magic skills. The ogre that gives you 100xp to practice with would go almost entirely into Sif Muna piety skills if you actively danced it in the old system, even if you didn't actually gain a level of your main combat skill, but now dodging, stealth, traps & doors, etc. are all taking a bit as well.
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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 22:12

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

XuaXua wrote:I prefer Automated over Automatic.

Have you noticed it's just called auto?

Volteccer_Jack wrote:I'm a little confused here. How does Manual work?

They don't. If you read the thread, you'll see what I have suggested for them.

Volteccer_Jack wrote:What happens (in both modes) if I turn off all skills?

In the latest version, you can't.

Stormfox wrote:with the realization that even turned-off skills sometimes get trained

Disabled skills are not trained at all.

mumra wrote:I'm wondering, is there any chance that it's affected Sif Muna's piety gain?

I've looked over the code and didn't notice anything wrong with Sif. Try in manual mode next time.
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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 22:24

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

But I am finding I spend even more time poring over the 'm' screen, fretting over distribution

I have to agree with this I'm afraid, I've played quite a few more games and found that (especially when I've got a lot of magic school skills) I'm worrying about my percentages and whats activated, and tend to turn off everything that isn't my main thing for fear that my valuable XP is going to get siphoned off. Auto seems as though it lacks a bit too much control for my liking, and further makes me worry. Also, I'm finding that I'm just turning off everything if I want to train something up (mainly spellcasting or charms), which is sort of nice that it's possible, but also feels still victory dancey, just over a longer period of time

Xua's new phrasing is a lot better, and it makes a bit more sense with that description, although I still feel its can seem a bit random.

Don't get me wrong though, I think its a step in the right direction, and I don't know what the best thing to do would be, but at the moment I just find myself spending more time at the m screen which is just as bad as spending more time magic darting.
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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 22:37

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

I do spend a lot of time on the m screen too, but since I designed and coded the new system, it is to be expected :)
I also find myself searching for the XP pool wondering if there's XP in it to decide if I cast, throw or run up to and smack the monster I just spotted. I'll be glad to get rid of this habit.
More seriously, auto mode needs some polish, and for now it's good to keep an eye on it to see if the percentages make any sense. I'm already thinking about reducing the frequency of weapon skill exercises and upping fighting and spellcasting. If you really need a skill, just turn on manual mode, that's what it's for. I'm also considering adding a focus skill feature. Works both in auto and manual mode, toggled with ctrl+letter, double the weight of the focused skill. Allows you to select a skill to be trained faster while keeping some others training.
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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 00:22

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

galehar wrote: I'm also considering adding a focus skill feature.


+1
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 00:42

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

galehar wrote:
XuaXua wrote:I prefer Automated over Automatic.

Have you noticed it's just called auto?


No, I just assumed it was Automatic because others were calling it that; I am only just now downloading latest trunk.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 00:45

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

galehar wrote:I do spend a lot of time on the m screen too, but since I designed and coded the new system, it is to be expected :)
I also find myself searching for the XP pool wondering if there's XP in it to decide if I cast, throw or run up to and smack the monster I just spotted. I'll be glad to get rid of this habit.
More seriously, auto mode needs some polish, and for now it's good to keep an eye on it to see if the percentages make any sense. I'm already thinking about reducing the frequency of weapon skill exercises and upping fighting and spellcasting. If you really need a skill, just turn on manual mode, that's what it's for. I'm also considering adding a focus skill feature. Works both in auto and manual mode, toggled with ctrl+letter, double the weight of the focused skill. Allows you to select a skill to be trained faster while keeping some others training.


I would wonder about being able to increase the range from last 100 to last 1000 or somewhere between.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 03:17

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

Wouldn't victory dancing still work?

Not as clearly as usual, for sure, let's say you're a level 12 character with 25 mp. Say you have Spellcasting 4, which is enough for you to Magic Missile hungerlessly. What's to stop you from disabling Conjurations, using a macro to cast MM 25 times, and then using melee with an amulet of rage to kill a few things, repeating as your MP bar fills up?

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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 03:43

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

Zuboki wrote:Wouldn't victory dancing still work?

Not as clearly as usual, for sure, let's say you're a level 12 character with 25 mp. Say you have Spellcasting 4, which is enough for you to Magic Missile hungerlessly. What's to stop you from disabling Conjurations, using a macro to cast MM 25 times, and then using melee with an amulet of rage to kill a few things, repeating as your MP bar fills up?


You can definitely do that.

Alternately, you can not use a macro to dump your mana bar, rest back up to full mp, and then repeat. Instead, you just toggle over to manual mode, pick the skill you want, and put all your xp there.

They both have the same result, but victory dancing makes you hit more buttons and costs in-game resources. You don't typically victory dance because there is now a strictly better alternative.

I dare say it feels odd to intentionally turn off fighting and spellcasting. Really odd. But this new system calls for exactly that most of the time. Now that fighting is easy to get, it's taken a place next to defensive skills like dodging and shields where you might as well pick up low levels of it as long as they're cheap but there's no point in planning your entire midgame around building it up. Before, if you happened upon an agate snail with a full xp pool the opportunity to train fighting blew nearly every other tactical and strategic concern out of the water. There was simply no question that you wanted to pillar-dance that agate snail until you emptied out your xp pool, because you wouldn't be getting another chance like that soon. Now it doesn't matter. When you want fighting or spellcasting, you can just get them without any nonsense involved.

I'm really not liking how it feels to pick up a new spell skill, though. If you're trying to get translocations with Blink at good, you'll have an absolutely wretched time with translocations miscasts from this unreliable spell until you get to level 1, and which point you can nearly instantly get it to excellent with no further risk. The pre-dancing required for level 1 is all the more stark when it's nonexistent everywhere else.
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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 05:51

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

I've just been playing on auto and turning off all but whatever skill I want to train. Manual just seems redundant and I have yet to find anything I can do with manual that I can't do with auto.

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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 06:24

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

galehar wrote:
sage wrote:I really like automatic mode; good job on that. However, it annoys me that using some skill just once inevitably forces you to gain a skill point if you didn't have one before. Especially since useless skill points sap some of your experience over time. Could someone look into disabling autotraining of skills you have less than a point of?

No, this intended. Again, I'm trying to avoid creating pre-battle dance effects. If you want to gain spellcasting, just read the scrolls you find whenever you like. You don't need to hoard them and read them all at once as soon as you've spotted a sleeping ogre. Exercises event for unknown skills are not put in the queue and they lose training points only when the skill is actually trained.
You couldn't disable unknown skills in the old system, and you still can't.
And no, useless skills points don't sap your experience over time. Before implementing the new skill training system, I changed the skill costs and made the level 1 much cheaper. I also removed the dependency of the skill cost on the skill level. You used to gain more skills points with the same XP when training low level skills, thus slowing down a bit your progress. This isn't the case anymore. You gain the same amount of skill points whether you train low level skills or high level ones.


Let me see if I understand this correctly. If you have 10 levels of Spellcasting and 20 skill levels total, would it take the same amount of experience to gain a level of Spellcasting as compared to ten levels of Spellcasting and 50 skill levels total? Because if the latter takes more experience than the former, that's what I mean about experience sapping.

Postscript: Bad news. Seems that a manually trained skill can't be unselected once it's mastered, and that putting experience into a mastered skill crashes the game. Plugging that into the tracker tomorrow.
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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 07:38

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

sage wrote:Let me see if I understand this correctly. If you have 10 levels of Spellcasting and 20 skill levels total, would it take the same amount of experience to gain a level of Spellcasting as compared to ten levels of Spellcasting and 50 skill levels total? Because if the latter takes more experience than the former, that's what I mean about experience sapping.

The latter take more experience. But the scaling of the cost isn't based on skill levels but on skill points. And you gain the same amount of skill points from a set of XP, no matter which skills you train. The 50 skill points of a level 1 skill are negligible. If you want more details on the subject, I suggest you read the thread and the wiki page about it. And if you've got more questions, please post them in the other thread.

sage wrote:Postscript: Bad news. Seems that a manually trained skill can't be unselected once it's mastered, and that putting experience into a mastered skill crashes the game. Plugging that into the tracker tomorrow.

L27 skills are automatically deactivated and they can't be trained anyway. There were a few bugs with L27 skills and they have been fixed. Please update your version.
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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 13:24

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

+1 for focused skills, that would be an awesome addition for 0.9 if you've got time. I think it's going to be awesome once its polished. As you say galehar, I think its just odd having to turn off things like spellcasting and fighting so that you don't train them, it's also weird having to focus stuff as much, but that's a fine direction for crawl to go in. I really don't mind having to look at the 'm' screen much, I quite like it infact, I just think it takes abit of getting used too.
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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 13:41

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

About focus, I'm thinking of giving it 2 effects. Double the weight of the selected skill, but also set a minimum value. So if you focus your 6% spellcasting, it doesn't just go to 12%. Something between 25% and 40% I'm not really sure. I'll probably put an option for it and default it at 35% so we can test different values.
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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 13:48

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

Focus skills would be great! In gereral that's exactly what I want to do - work mainly on specific skills, but still let a bit of Exp trickle into other areas.

My second character on the new system (DEWz) has reached Vault:7 and is frankly walking through it, thanks to high Fighting / Dodging / Shields, which I never managed to train anything like this high on the old system. He's barely taking a scratch right now even without DMsl. And Vault was on D:19 which as I understand it is the hardest possible Vault level :) Haven't even had a remotely astounding run of artefacts. Ash is also helping with the skill boosts.

My flying / swifted / hasted lich even managed to pulverise Mennas as soon as I saw him, firing OOD from just outside the silence range.

So yeah this game is going pretty well, although I still need to pump some primary skills to get something level 9 castable.

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.9-a1-953-ga0a87fa character file.

Mallamor the Eclecticist (Deep Elf Wizard)                                                                                                        Turns: 100204, Time: 10:55:18

HP 120/120       AC 26     Str  7      Exp: 22/650624 (0), need: 40975
MP  52/52        EV 25     Int 34      God: Ashenzari [******]
Gold 2782        SH 17     Dex 14      Spells: 13 memorised,  3 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : +      - Unarmed
Res.Cold  : + . .   Warding    : + .  f - +2 robe {MR} (curse)
Life Prot.: + + +   Conserve   : .    D - +3 elf buckler (curse)
Res.Acid. : . . .   Res.Corr.  : .    H - +2 helmet {SInv} (curse)
Res.Poison: +       Clarity    : +    K - +2 cloak
Res.Elec. : .       Spirit.Shd : .    d - +2 pair of elf gauntlets
Sust.Abil.: . .     Stasis     : .    x - +2 pair of orc boots {Stlth+} (curse)
Res.Mut.  : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .    j - cursed brooch of Shielding {Ward AC+4 EV+4
Res.Rott. : +       Levitation : .    p - ring of magical power
Saprovore : . . .   Ctrl.Flight: .    v - cursed ring of wizardry

@: lich-form (expires), extraordinarily resistant to hostile enchantments, extraordinarily stealthy
A: Dex +1
a: End Transformation, Scrying, Transfer Knowledge, Renounce Religion
}: 2/15 runes: decaying, barnacled


You are on level 2 of the Hive.
You worship Ashenzari.
Ashenzari is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You are in lich-form.

You have visited 9 branches of the dungeon, and seen 58 of its levels.
You have visited 1 Labyrinth.
You have visited 2 portal chambers: spiders nest, wizlab.

You have collected 5385 gold pieces.
You have spent 2623 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 i - the -4,-4 quarterstaff "Bomuas" {freeze, +Lev rElec rPois rF+}
   (You found it in a spider's nest)   
   
   It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it, causing extra
   injury to most foes and up to double damage against particularly susceptible
   opponents. It can also slow down cold-blooded creatures.
   
   
   It protects you from fire.
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It protects you from poison.
   It lets you levitate.
Armour
 d - a +2 pair of elven gauntlets (worn)
 f - a cursed +2 robe of magic resistance (worn)
 x - a cursed +2 pair of orcish boots of stealth (worn)
 D - a cursed +3 elven buckler (worn)
 H - a cursed +2 helmet of see invisible (worn)
 K - a +2 cloak (worn)
Magical devices
 e - a wand of digging {zapped: 1}
 t - a wand of fire
 J - a wand of teleportation (4)
Scrolls
 b - 2 scrolls of identify
 c - 6 scrolls of blinking
 g - a scroll of enchant weapon III
 k - a scroll of magic mapping
 m - a scroll of fear
 s - a scroll of teleportation
 B - a scroll of fog
 E - a scroll of curse jewellery
Jewellery
 j - the cursed brooch of Shielding (around neck) {Ward AC+4 EV+4}
   (You found it in a Labyrinth)   
   
   [amulet of warding]
   
   It affects your AC (+4).
   It affects your evasion (+4).
   
   Back in the good old days, every adventurer had one of these handy devices.
   That, and a pony.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 n - an uncursed ring of protection from fire
 p - a ring of magical power (right hand)
 r - an uncursed ring of teleport control
 v - a cursed ring of wizardry (left hand)
 z - the ring "Poxzosk" {EV+1 Str+4 Dex+2 Dam+2}
   (You found it on level 8 of the Lair of Beasts)   
   
   [ring of evasion]
   It affects your evasion (+1).
   
   It affects your strength (+4).
   It affects your dexterity (+2).
   It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+2).
 U - an uncursed ring of protection from cold
Potions
 a - a potion of magic
 h - a potion of restore abilities
 l - 3 potions of heal wounds
 o - 2 potions of resistance
 q - a potion of healing
 G - a potion of brilliance
 L - a potion of agility


 You have 0 experience left.

   Skills:
 + Level 9 Fighting
 - Level 1 Short Blades
 - Level 3 Staves
 - Level 2 Armour
 + Level 12(15) Dodging
 + Level 12(15) Stealth
 - Level 1 Stabbing
 + Level 7(11) Shields
 - Level 2 Traps & Doors
 - Level 1 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 19 Spellcasting
 + Level 19(20) Conjurations
 + Level 9(12) Charms
 - Level 4(7) Summonings
 - Level 18(19) Necromancy
 - Level 8(12) Translocations
 + Level 11(14) Transmutations
 + Level 6(10) Fire Magic
 - Level 4(7) Air Magic
 - Level 3(5) Poison Magic
 - Level 4(7) Evocations


You have 3 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Success   Level  Hunger
a - Flight                Air/Chrm       #######...   Excellent   4    N/A
b - Animate Skeleton      Necr           N/A          Perfect     1    N/A
c - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          Perfect     2    N/A
d - Deflect Missiles      Air/Chrm       #######...   Excellent   6    N/A
e - Necromutation         Trmt/Necr      #########.   Excellent   8    N/A
f - Sublimation of Blood  Necr           #########.   Perfect     2    N/A
g - Orb of Destruction    Conj           #########.   Excellent   7    N/A
h - Ring of Flames        Fire/Chrm      ########..   Excellent   7    N/A
i - Iskenderun's Mystic   Conj           #########    Perfect     4    N/A
j - Apportation           Tloc           ########..   Perfect     1    N/A
k - Bolt of Fire          Fire/Conj      ########..   Excellent   6    N/A
n - Haste                 Chrm           ########.    Excellent   6    N/A
o - Swiftness             Air/Chrm       #######...   Excellent   2    N/A


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (21/27)            Temple (1/1) D:6             Orc (4/4) D:7
    Elf (5/5) Orc:3          Lair (8/8) D:11          Swamp (5/5) Lair:2
 Shoals (5/5) Lair:6        Slime (0/6) Lair:8         Hive (2/2) D:12
  Vault (7/8) D:19          Blade (0/1) Vault:5       Crypt (0/5) Vault:3

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
The Shining One
Trog
Vehumet
Zin
Lugonu

Shops:
D:7: +  D:8: =  D:13: [  D:20: [  Orc:4: %+%[  Elf:4: %  Shoals:2: [  Vault:2: %[(*?  Vault:4: [

Portals:
Hell: D:21

Annotations
D:9 3 exclusions
Lair:6 exclusion: 3 oklob plants


                    Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are agile (Dex +1).


Message History

a wand of disintegration {zapped: 1}; a wand of fireball
Things that are here:
a wand of draining {zapped: 3}; a wand of fire; a wand of fire {zapped: 4}
Drop what?  (Press _ for help.) (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
Your transformation is almost over.
You drop a wand of fire (0).
Things that are here:
a wand of draining {zapped: 3}; a wand of fire; a wand of fire {zapped: 4}
There are several objects here.
Pick up a wand of draining {zapped: 3}? ((y)es/(n)o/(a)ll/(m)enu/*?g,/q)
Pick up a wand of fire? ((y)es/(n)o/(a)ll/(m)enu/*?g,/q)
t - a wand of fire
Pick up a wand of fire {zapped: 4}? ((y)es/(n)o/(a)ll/(m)enu/*?g,/q)
You see here a book of Air.
Okay, then.
Welcome back, Mallamor the Deep Elf Wizard.
Ashenzari says: Partake of my vision. Partake of my curse.
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.
Unknown command.

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There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  Boris (Shoals:5)
  Mara (D:18)
  Mennas (Vault:6)
  Xtahua (Shoals:5)
  Frederick (Shoals:3)
  2 deep elf blademasters (Elf:5)
  A lich (Vault:5)
  A kraken (Shoals:5)
  2 sphinxes
  Ilsuiw (Shoals:5)
  Donald (Elf:2)
  Louise (D:17)
  6 stone giants
  A fire giant (Vault:7)
  10 deep elf annihilators
  2 shedu (D:17)
  Jozef (D:12)
  3 dire elephants (Lair:8)
  2 deep elf master archers (Elf:5)
  7 deep elf death magi (Elf:5)
  7 deep elf sorcerers (Elf:5)
  A minotaur (Lab)
  13 yaktaur captains
  2 dragons
  2 sirens
  A salamander (Vault:1)
  2 vault guards (D:19)
  3 merfolk impalers
  Erica (D:12)
  3 merfolk aquamancers (Shoals:5)
  A hydra (shapeshifter) (Vault:5)
  A great orb of eyes (D:21)
  4 merfolk javelineers (Shoals:5)
  Polyphemus (Shoals:5)
  16 hydras
  5 deep elf demonologists
  Nessos (D:12)
  An anaconda (Lair:8)
  39 slime creatures
  An alligator snapping turtle (Shoals:5)
  5 alligators
  2 stone giant zombies
  A rakshasa (D:20)
  7 ogre magi
  A deep elf high priest (Elf:5)
  7 death yaks
  2 sphinx skeletons
  19 centaur warriors
  5 deep trolls
  3 frost giant skeletons
  An iron troll (Vault:6)
  3 stone giant skeletons
  4 very ugly things
  3 emperor scorpions (Port)
  A giant orange brain (shapeshifter) (Elf:1)
  2 hell knights (D:21)
  A wizard (Elf:4)
  28 deep elf knights
  A shadow wraith (Vault:3)
  5 sea snakes
  5 flayed ghosts
  Erolcha (D:11)
  2 unseen horrors
  An orc sorcerer (Vault:5)
  An iron troll zombie (Vault:2)
  2 hill giants (shapeshifter)
  A swamp dragon (Swamp:5)
  A swamp dragon (shapeshifter) (Vault:6)
  2 necromancers
  4 giant amoebae
  9 orc knights
  11 hill giants
  8 harpies
  2 iron troll skeletons
  5 centaur skeletons (Port)
  A harpy skeleton (D:20)
  A guardian serpent (shapeshifter) (Elf:4)
  3 oklob plants
  8 cyclopes
  A red wasp zombie (Vault:3)
  5 red wasps
  2 stone golems (Port)
  A weapon mimic (D:12)
  A griffon zombie (Vault:2)
  3 wolf spiders
  2 shop mimics (D:17)
  A portal mimic (Vault:1)
  An ettin zombie (D:19)
  A fire crab (shapeshifter) (D:18)
  3 black mambas
  A door mimic (D:11)
  2 trapdoor spiders
  2 elephant slugs
  A stair mimic (D:19)
  5 orange demons
  3 ettin skeletons
  A spiny worm zombie (D:19)
  A yaktaur (shapeshifter) (Elf:3)
  26 yaktaurs
  3 elephants (Lair:8)
  Psyche (Elf:1)
  4 rock trolls
  51 ugly things
  2 hellwings
  A queen bee (Vault:3)
  8 spiny frogs
  A troll (shapeshifter) (D:19)
  2 hill giant skeletons
  5 large large abominations (Elf:4)
  5 mermaids
  4 redbacks
  Sonja (D:12)
  3 komodo dragons
  An efreet (D:16)
  19 two-headed ogres
  A baby alligator (shapeshifter) (Elf:5)
  6 trolls
  2 spriggans (shapeshifter)
  2 deep troll zombies
  3 bog mummies
  2 rock troll zombies (Vault:3)
  6 baby alligators
  3 human zombies (D:21)
  2 deep troll skeletons
  7 snapping turtles
  2 rock troll skeletons
  3 elves (shapeshifter)
  24 giant toads
  16 blink frogs
  10 bumblebees (Vault:6)
  20 hippogriffs
  24 deep elf conjurers
  A dragon simulacrum (D:18)
  A wraith (Lair:1)
  41 merfolk
  A fire drake (Lair:6)
  16 deep elf summoners
  39 vampire mosquitoes
  39 yaks
  2 sharks
  Grum (D:13)
  2 wyverns
  2 hungry ghosts
  A soldier ant (D:12)
  28 deep elf fighters
  A steam dragon (Swamp:5)
  5 basilisks
  8 war dogs
  4 water elementals (Shoals:5)
  2 yaktaur zombies
  A necrophage (Vault:3)
  A rock worm (D:18)
  Edmund (D:4)
  22 orc warriors
  Menkaure (D:4)
  8 yaktaur skeletons
  29 swamp worms
  5 mottled dragons
  A wyvern zombie (D:13)
  11 manticores
  Purgy (D:3)
  A redback simulacrum (Vault:5)
  20 insubstantial wisps
  5 swamp drakes
  8 freezing wraiths
  6 sky beasts
  6 giant goldfish
  A hippogriff zombie (D:14)
  2 kenku (Swamp:5)
  52 ogres
  10 deep elf priests
  A bumblebee zombie (Vault:3)
  40 centaurs
  6 yellow wasps
  2 phantoms
  24 deep elf magi
  A boring beetle (Lair:8)
  2 wargs
  13 crocodiles
  A wolf (Lair:2)
  2 lava worms
  A brain worm (shapeshifter) (Vault:6)
  13 water moccasins
  A brain worm (D:12)
  8 giant slugs
  2 boulder beetle zombies
  3 giant leeches
  A centaur zombie (D:8)
  4 agate snails
  A tarantella (Port)
  A soldier ant zombie (D:11)
  Blork the orc (D:4)
  8 small abominations
  20 giant frogs
  A two-headed ogre skeleton (Vault:5)
  An eye of draining (D:12)
  63 killer bees
  2 boulder beetles
  2 killer bee zombies (D:8)
  A lava fish (Vault:1)
  9 wights (D:10)
  A basilisk zombie (D:11)
  11 electric eels
  11 jellyfish
  A quasit (D:8)
  2 big kobold zombies
  2 shadows
  2 mottled dragon skeletons
  A big kobold skeleton (D:9)
  3 goliath beetles
  5 imps
  7 orc priests
  A basilisk skeleton (D:11)
  A hound zombie (D:8)
  A hound skeleton (D:17)
  5 ogre skeletons
  4 hounds
  6 big fish
  5 iguanas
  10 spiders
  7 worker ants
  A swamp drake zombie (Swamp:5)
  54 deep elf soldiers
  22 orc wizards
  10 scorpions
  5 orange rats
  2 worker ant zombies
  4 porcupines
  25 sheep
  A goliath beetle zombie (D:18)
  3 jellies
  A mummy (D:15)
  17 snakes
  4 giant centipedes
  6 gnolls
  24 green rats
  13 elf zombies
  A scorpion zombie (D:4)
  2 giant centipede zombies
  A snake skeleton (D:8)
  6 giant mites
  2 lemures
  A white imp (Lair:4)
  A sheep skeleton (Shoals:3)
  7 worms
  12 ufetubi
  A grey rat (Elf:2)
  2 giant eyeballs
  10 giant geckos
  A gnoll zombie (D:8)
  3 oozes
  125 orcs
  47 bats
  2 giant cockroaches (D:2)
  18 goblins
  13 hobgoblins
  23 jackals
  18 kobolds
  5 quokkas
  9 giant newts
  A giant spore (D:11)
  A hobgoblin zombie (D:6)
  27 killer bee larvae
  A kobold skeleton (D:8)
  6 orc skeletons
  A quokka zombie (D:10)
  36 rats
  A rat skeleton (D:5)
  2 small snakes
  6 ballistomycetes (D:11)
  2 fungi
  9 plants
  2 tentacle segments (Shoals:4)
  39 toadstools
1970 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  Saint Roka (Shoals:1)
  Margery (D:21)
  A kraken (Shoals:4)
  Roxanne (D:14)
  A frost giant (D:21)
  Maud (D:14)
  Gastronok (D:13)
  An ophan (D:17)
  A shedu (D:17)
  Azrael (D:14)
  2 dire elephants (Lair:8)
  Snorg (D:18)
  A siren (Shoals:3)
  6 vault guards (D:19)
  Josephine (D:14)
  6 hydras
  A merfolk aquamancer (Shoals:5)
  A merfolk javelineer (Shoals:5)
  The ghost of Galhoun the Conjurer, a powerful DEAE of Vehumet (Lair:4)
  5 ogre magi
  5 harpies
  The ghost of Maltalor the Conjurer, a powerful DEWz of Sif Muna (Lair:4)
  14 death yaks
  3 alligators
  Nergalle (D:14)
  A sphinx skeleton (D:17)
  4 centaur warriors
  3 hell knights (D:21)
  3 deep elf knights
  5 sea snakes
  An orc knight (D:18)
  An iron troll zombie (D:20)
  Urug (Orc:3)
  2 cyclopes
  A griffon (D:20)
  Maurice (D:12)
  A red wasp (Swamp:2)
  A black mamba (Lair:6)
  7 elephants
  An eye of devastation (Lair:8)
  A giant toad zombie (D:16)
  A portal mimic (D:14)
  20 slime creatures
  A spiny worm zombie (D:14)
  A shop mimic (D:17)
  2 orange demons
  4 yaktaurs
  21 ugly things
  2 rock trolls (D:21)
  An efreet (D:16)
  A human zombie (D:21)
  A snapping turtle (Shoals:1)
  A queen bee (Hive:2)
  2 komodo dragons (Lair:7)
  A polar bear (Lair:6)
  7 trolls
  A hill giant skeleton (D:14)
  14 two-headed ogres
  2 bog mummies
  9 giant toads
  13 blink frogs
  A shark (Shoals:3)
  21 vampire mosquitoes
  2 deep elf summoners
  2 deep elf conjurers
  18 yaks
  A war dog (D:13)
  2 fire elementals (D:14)
  9 merfolk
  A steam dragon (Swamp:5)
  A water elemental (Shoals:5)
  6 deep elf fighters
  3 fire drakes
  2 mottled dragons (Swamp:5)
  4 hippogriffs
  2 soldier ants
  A basilisk (Lair:5)
  5 hell hounds (D:14)
  3 kenku (Swamp:5)
  A wyvern zombie (D:14)
  2 manticores
  A phantom (D:13)
  12 swamp worms
  A small abomination (D:10)
  An ice beast (D:14)
  2 yellow wasps
  4 swamp drakes
  11 insubstantial wisps
  8 orc warriors
  7 centaurs
  22 ogres
  4 crocodiles
  4 giant goldfish
  A troll skeleton (D:14)
  A hippogriff skeleton (D:14)
  Duvessa (Orc:2)
  3 boring beetles
  A lava worm (Swamp:5)
  10 giant frogs
  A yellow wasp zombie (D:14)
  4 water moccasins
  3 deep elf magi
  2 giant slugs (Lair:4)
  A big kobold (D:16)
  A giant frog skeleton (D:14)
  A tarantella (Port)
  3 agate snails
  An elf skeleton (Elf:1)
  An eye of draining (D:12)
  A boulder beetle (D:21)
  88 killer bees
  2 jellyfish (D:16)
  A lava fish (Swamp:5)
  7 electric eels
  3 big kobold skeletons
  A big kobold zombie (D:14)
  Dowan (Orc:2)
  2 basilisk skeletons
  A spider (Vault:1)
  3 imps
  An iron imp (Lair:4)
  5 big fish
  13 orc priests
  3 hounds
  A porcupine (Lair:2)
  7 deep elf soldiers
  2 worker ants
  4 iguanas
  2 scorpions
  8 sheep
  7 orc wizards
  2 jellies
  2 gnolls
  2 lemures (Lair:4)
  3 giant centipedes
  3 midges
  13 snakes
  2 elf zombies
  21 green rats
  4 shadow imps
  A giant mite (D:6)
  A white imp (Elf:4)
  3 worms
  2 ufetubi
  A grey rat (Elf:2)
  A giant eyeball (Lair:8)
  69 orcs
  12 bats
  3 goblins
  8 hobgoblins
  7 jackals
  11 kobolds
  4 quokkas
  3 giant geckos
  25 killer bee larvae
  An orc skeleton (D:11)
  13 rats
  A ballistomycete (D:11)
  2 bushes (Lair:6)
  3 butterflies
  15 fungi
  30 plants
  3 tentacles
  20 toadstools
851 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  An anaconda skeleton (Lair:8)
  An emperor scorpion (Port)
  A deep elf knight (Vault:3)
  A death yak skeleton (Shoals:5)
  A hydra zombie (Swamp:5)
  2 harpy zombies (Shoals:1)
  A siren skeleton (Shoals:4)
  2 human skeletons
  21 slime creatures
  2 alligator skeletons
  A giant toad zombie (Lair:8)
  34 large large abominations
  4 giant toad skeletons
  A black mamba skeleton (Lair:8)
  A rock troll skeleton (D:20)
  A deep elf conjurer (Elf:2)
  A snapping turtle skeleton (Shoals:4)
  A merfolk zombie (Shoals:2)
  6 small abominations
  A steam dragon (Swamp:5)
  9 merfolk skeletons (Shoals:5)
  A komodo dragon zombie (Lair:8)
  7 vampire mosquitoes
  A mottled dragon (Swamp:5)
  5 yaktaur skeletons
  A giant slug zombie (Lair:8)
  A mermaid skeleton (Shoals:5)
  A wyvern skeleton (D:16)
  2 manticore skeletons
  An orc warrior (D:7)
  A yak zombie (D:9)
  A cyclops skeleton (D:20)
  2 swamp worm zombies
  2 troll skeletons
  3 hippogriff skeletons
  2 swamp drakes (Swamp:5)
  A yak skeleton (Shoals:5)
  A centaur zombie (D:10)
  A giant frog zombie (Swamp:4)
  3 centaur skeletons
  4 giant frog skeletons
  A two-headed ogre skeleton (D:20)
  A water moccasin skeleton (Swamp:1)
  A killer bee (Vault:3)
  8 killer bee zombies
  A crocodile zombie (Lair:8)
  A crocodile skeleton (Lair:6)
  A mottled dragon skeleton (Swamp:5)
  A basilisk skeleton (Lair:5)
  2 spider zombies (Port)
  2 hound skeletons
  A deep elf soldier (Elf:4)
  A swamp drake skeleton (Swamp:5)
  A goliath beetle zombie (D:16)
  A giant centipede zombie (Lair:5)
  18 orc skeletons
  53 elf skeletons
  5 snake skeletons
  An iguana skeleton (D:4)
  2 sheep skeletons
  6 bat skeletons
  A bat zombie (Swamp:1)
  A gnoll skeleton (D:16)
  2 orcs
  2 goblins
  A jackal (D:16)
  A quokka (D:10)
  2 giant gecko skeletons
  2 giant gecko zombies (D:11)
  A giant spore (D:11)
  A goblin skeleton (D:12)
  A goblin zombie (D:16)
  A hobgoblin skeleton (D:3)
  2 hobgoblin zombies
  A jackal skeleton (D:16)
  3 jackal zombies
  A killer bee larva (Hive:1)
  3 kobold skeletons
  4 kobold zombies
  16 orc zombies
  2 quokka skeletons
  A rat (Swamp:3)
  9 rat skeletons
  2 rat zombies
  A ballistomycete (D:11)
  2 bushes (Lair:6)
  A butterfly (Swamp:5)
  12 fungi
  11 plants
  11 tentacles
  281 tentacle segments
  140 toadstools
761 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 3582 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Mallamor, the Deep Elf Wizard, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 8/8 MP: 7/7
    69 | D:1      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
    75 | D:1      | Got an engraved book
    76 | D:1      | Identified Ashenzari's Volume of Skeletal cook (You found it on level 1 of the Dungeon)
   254 | D:1      | Became a worshipper of Ashenzari the Shackled
   323 | D:1      | Learned a level 1 spell: Animate Skeleton
   595 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 13/13 MP: 7/10
   604 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
   607 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles
  1338 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 17/17 MP: 13/13
  1365 | D:2      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  1786 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
  1790 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
  2033 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 22/22 MP: 17/17
  2535 | D:3      | Noticed Purgy
  2542 | D:3      | Defeated Purgy
  2542 | D:3      | Reached skill level 6 in Spellcasting
  2542 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 26/26 MP: 18/19
  2943 | D:4      | Noticed Menkaure
  3065 | D:4      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  3095 | D:4      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  3201 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Necromancy
  3202 | D:4      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  3207 | D:4      | Noticed Blork the orc
  3218 | D:4      | Defeated Blork the orc
  3218 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 28/31 MP: 8/21
  3554 | D:4      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  3925 | D:4      | Your ally Blork died
  3933 | D:4      | Defeated Menkaure
  4054 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4054 | D:5      | Noticed Edmund
  4077 | D:4      | Defeated Edmund
  4077 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
  4078 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  4232 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 35/35 MP: 23/23
  4736 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic
  6110 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic
  6326 | D:6      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  6334 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  6347 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  6386 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 29/40 MP: 25/25
  6888 | D:6      | Acquired Ashenzari's first power
  6950 | D:6      | Got the Singing Sword {Noisy}
  7267 | D:7      | Found Chol's Book Emporium.
  7351 | D:7      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  7380 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Traps & Doors
  7726 | D:8      | Learned a level 4 spell: Animate Dead
  7737 | D:8      | Learned a level 3 spell: Recall
  7792 | D:8      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
  7830 | D:8      | Reached skill level 1 in Armour
  7965 | D:8      | Reached skill level 7 in Spellcasting
  8271 | D:8      | Found Epta's Jewellery Boutique.
  8725 | D:9      | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
  8725 | D:9      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 31/44 MP: 24/27
  8769 | D:9      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  9153 | D:9      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  9612 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
  9809 | D:10     | Reached skill level 8 in Conjurations
 10031 | D:10     | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
 10401 | D:7      | Bought a book of Power for 495 gold pieces
 10466 | D:8      | Bought a cursed ring of hunger for 1 gold piece
 11018 | D:9      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 19/48 MP: 20/28
 11203 | D:9      | Learned a level 4 spell: Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
 11256 | D:10     | Reached skill level 9 in Conjurations
 11457 | D:10     | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
 12150 | D:11     | Noticed Erolcha
 12306 | D:11     | Defeated Erolcha
 12588 | D:11     | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations
 14242 | D:11     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 14382 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 45/52 MP: 25/30
 14593 | Temple   | Learned a level 5 spell: Twisted Resurrection
 14640 | D:7      | Bought a book of Cantrips for 220 gold pieces
 14643 | D:7      | Learned a level 1 spell: Apportation
 14986 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 16213 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 11 in Conjurations
 16648 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
 17288 | Lair:2   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 17898 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 17978 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 1 in Short Blades
 18693 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 12 in Conjurations
 18693 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 5 in Necromancy
 19316 | Lair:4   | Noticed Maltalor's ghost (powerful DEWz)
 19324 | Lair:4   | Defeated Maltalor's ghost
 19409 | Lair:4   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 39/57 MP: 3/33
 19489 | Lair:4   | Noticed Galhoun's ghost (powerful DEAE)
 19496 | Lair:4   | Defeated Galhoun's ghost
 19612 | Lair:4   | Found a crumbling entrance.
 19636 | Spider   | Entered a spider's nest
 20046 | Spider   | Reached skill level 13 in Conjurations
 20456 | Spider   | Got the cursed quarterstaff "Bomuas" {freeze, +Lev rElec rPois rF+}
 20755 | Spider   | Identified the cursed -4,-4 quarterstaff "Bomuas" {freeze, +Lev rElec rPois rF+} (You found it in a spider's nest)
 20916 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 6 spell: Bolt of Fire
 20933 | Lair:2   | Identified the +7,+7 Singing Sword {Noisy} (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon)
 21206 | Temple   | Identified the +7,+7 Singing Sword {Noisy} (You found it on level 6 of the Dungeon)
 22989 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 5 in Translocations
 23112 | Lair:5   | Learned a level 1 spell: Fulsome Distillation
 24354 | Lair:6   | Acquired Ashenzari's second power
 25581 | Lair:6   | Found a staircase to the Shoals.
 25772 | Lair:6   | Identified the cursed -2,+6 long sword of Mallamor's Terror
 25920 | Lair:7   | Found a labyrinth entrance.
 25941 | Lab      | Entered a Labyrinth
 26006 | Lab      | Found a one-way gate to the infinite horrors of the Abyss.
 26176 | Lab      | Reached XP level 13. HP: 26/61 MP: 23/36
 26178 | Lab      | Got an uncursed shield-shaped amulet
 26188 | Lab      | Identified the cursed +3,-3 quarterstaff of Darkness (You found it in a Labyrinth)
 26190 | Lab      | Identified the +2,+5 halberd of Mayhem (You found it in a Labyrinth)
 26192 | Lab      | Identified the cursed -2 blowgun of Vocez (You found it in a Labyrinth)
 27841 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 27843 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 14 in Spellcasting
 28158 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 28417 | Lair:8   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 28973 | Lair:8   | Acquired Ashenzari's third power
 29106 | Lair:8   | Identified the ring "Poxzosk"
 31123 | Lair:8   | Identified the cursed +3,+10 halberd "Killer Klown's Doom"
 31386 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 15 in Spellcasting
 31871 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 66/66 MP: 9/37
 31897 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 10 in Necromancy
 32957 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 5 spell: Poisonous Cloud
 33064 | Lair:2   | Identified the cursed brooch of Shielding {AC+4 EV+4} (You found it in a Labyrinth)
 33309 | D:12     | Noticed Nessos
 33310 | D:12     | Noticed Jozef
 33318 | D:12     | Defeated Nessos
 33320 | D:12     | Defeated Jozef
 33495 | D:12     | Found a staircase to the Hive.
 34052 | D:12     | Noticed Maurice
 34059 | D:12     | Defeated Maurice
 34136 | D:12     | Noticed Sonja
 34209 | D:12     | Defeated Sonja
 34247 | D:12     | Reached skill level 16 in Spellcasting
 34863 | D:12     | Noticed Erica
 34867 | D:12     | Defeated Erica
 35197 | D:13     | Reached skill level 1 in Transmutations
 35578 | D:13     | Found Muvot's Armour Shoppe.
 35639 | D:13     | Noticed Gastronok
 35648 | D:13     | Defeated Gastronok
 35877 | D:13     | Noticed Grum
 35879 | D:13     | Defeated Grum
 36270 | D:14     | Noticed Roxanne
 36281 | D:14     | Defeated Roxanne
 36311 | D:14     | Noticed Maud
 36324 | D:14     | Noticed Josephine
 36333 | D:14     | Defeated Josephine
 36478 | D:14     | Defeated Maud
 36478 | D:14     | Reached skill level 15 in Conjurations
 36959 | D:14     | Noticed Nergalle
 36965 | D:14     | Defeated Nergalle
 36985 | D:14     | Acquired Ashenzari's fourth power
 37217 | D:14     | Noticed Azrael
 37223 | D:14     | Your ally Maud died
 37243 | D:14     | Defeated Azrael
 37244 | D:14     | Defeated a fire elemental
 37252 | D:14     | Noticed a fire elemental
 37255 | D:14     | Defeated a fire elemental
 38440 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 39110 | Orc:2    | Noticed Duvessa
 39112 | Orc:2    | Noticed Dowan
 39118 | Orc:2    | Defeated Duvessa
 39119 | Orc:2    | Defeated Dowan
 39848 | Orc:3    | Noticed a stone giant
 39852 | Orc:3    | Defeated a stone giant
 40077 | Orc:3    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 40365 | Orc:3    | Reached skill level 17 in Spellcasting
 40847 | Orc:4    | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines
 40984 | Orc:3    | Noticed Urug
 40988 | Orc:3    | Defeated Urug
 41168 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41168 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41169 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41170 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41171 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41171 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41172 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 41172 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
 41174 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 41174 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 41175 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 41177 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 41177 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 41178 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41178 | Orc:4    | Noticed an ogre mage
 41178 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41179 | Orc:4    | Reached XP level 15. HP: 70/70 MP: 14/39
 41181 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 41183 | Orc:4    | Defeated an ogre mage
 41184 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 41185 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41186 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41186 | Orc:4    | Noticed an ogre mage
 41187 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41187 | Orc:4    | Noticed an ogre mage
 41188 | Orc:4    | Noticed an ogre mage
 41188 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 41190 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 41190 | Orc:4    | Defeated an ogre mage
 41191 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 41196 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41196 | Orc:4    | Defeated an ogre mage
 41202 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 41207 | Orc:4    | Defeated an ogre mage
 41231 | Orc:4    | Found Ijipidud's Food Emporium.
 41231 | Orc:4    | Found Esaon's Antique Armour Shop.
 41232 | Orc:4    | Found Fufyogouh's Food Boutique.
 41232 | Orc:4    | Found Usedarr's Book Emporium.
 41238 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41239 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41239 | Orc:4    | Noticed a two-headed ogre
 41246 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 41250 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 41251 | Orc:4    | Defeated a two-headed ogre
 42809 | Orc:4    | Bought a shimmering leather armour for 238 gold pieces
 42809 | Orc:4    | Identified the cursed -2 leather armour of Tweps (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)
 43214 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 6 spell: Haste
 44252 | Swamp:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Swamp
 44688 | Swamp:1  | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
 44915 | Swamp:1  | Reached skill level 1 in Staves
 47985 | Swamp:3  | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
 49002 | Swamp:4  | Reached skill level 1 in Stabbing
 49342 | Swamp:4  | Gained mutation: You cover ground slowly.
 49367 | Swamp:3  | Gained mutation: You have a fast metabolism.
 49551 | Swamp:3  | Reached skill level 5 in Charms
 50937 | Swamp:4  | Reached XP level 16. HP: 75/75 MP: 22/40
 51478 | Swamp:5  | Entered Level 5 of the Swamp
 52646 | Swamp:5  | Got a decaying rune of Zot
 52790 | Swamp:4  | Reached skill level 15 in Necromancy
 54824 | Hive:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Hive
 55123 | Hive:2   | Entered Level 2 of the Hive
 55366 | Hive:2   | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth
 57825 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 58683 | D:16     | Reached skill level 18 in Spellcasting
 60986 | D:17     | Reached XP level 17. HP: 79/79 MP: 20/41
 61125 | D:17     | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
 61215 | D:17     | Noticed Louise
 61223 | D:17     | Defeated Louise
 62567 | D:17     | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
 62567 | D:17     | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
 62567 | D:17     | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
 63458 | D:18     | Noticed Mara
 63467 | D:18     | Defeated Mara
 63646 | D:18     | Noticed Snorg
 63665 | D:18     | Defeated Snorg
 65610 | D:19     | Found a staircase to the Vaults.
 66681 | Hive:2   | Learned a level 2 spell: Swiftness
 67967 | D:20     | Entered Level 20 of the Dungeon
 68025 | D:20     | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 68048 | D:20     | Found Ziraan's Antique Armour Shop.
 68125 | D:20     | Bought a buckler for 77 gold pieces
 68152 | D:20     | Bought a dull large shield for 387 gold pieces
 68152 | D:20     | Identified the cursed +8 shield of Ignorance (You bought it in a shop on level 20 of the Dungeon)
 68324 | D:20     | Reached XP level 18. HP: 84/84 MP: 29/42
 68731 | D:20     | Noticed a deep elf conjurer
 68736 | D:20     | Defeated a deep elf conjurer
 69663 | D:21     | Noticed Margery
 69680 | D:21     | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
 69682 | D:21     | Defeated Margery
 70083 | D:21     | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
 70293 | D:21     | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 70794 | D:21     | Found a gateway to Hell.
 71153 | D:21     | Learned a level 4 spell: Flight
 71726 | Hive:2   | Learned a level 6 spell: Deflect Missiles
 72442 | Orc:4    | Bought a transparent shield for 323 gold pieces
 72442 | Orc:4    | Identified the +2 shield of Okawaru's Vengeance (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)
 72528 | D:7      | Bought a book of Alchemy for 825 gold pieces
 72532 | D:7      | Learned a level 2 spell: Sublimation of Blood
 73306 | Shoals:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Shoals
 73892 | Shoals:1 | Got a rare book
 73894 | Shoals:1 | Identified the Handbook of Dark Buffs (You found it on level 1 of the Shoals)
 73933 | Shoals:1 | Noticed Saint Roka
 73940 | Shoals:1 | Defeated Saint Roka
 74415 | Shoals:2 | Found Shrapp's Antique Armour Emporium.
 74611 | Shoals:2 | Reached skill level 5 in Transmutations
 75162 | Shoals:3 | Noticed Frederick
 75175 | Shoals:3 | Defeated Frederick
 75912 | Shoals:4 | Reached XP level 19. HP: 100/103 MP: 1/42
 77085 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 8 spell: Necromutation
 77118 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 7 spell: Orb of Destruction
 77386 | Shoals:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Shoals
 77596 | Shoals:5 | Noticed Polyphemus
 77627 | Shoals:5 | Defeated Polyphemus
 78545 | Shoals:5 | Noticed Xtahua
 78558 | Shoals:5 | Defeated Xtahua
 79046 | Shoals:5 | Noticed Boris
 79075 | Shoals:5 | Defeated Boris
 79436 | Shoals:5 | Reached skill level 19 in Spellcasting
 79706 | Shoals:5 | Reached skill level 10 in Stealth
 79909 | Shoals:5 | Got the cursed cloak of Freedom {Str+2}
 79915 | Shoals:5 | Noticed Ilsuiw
 79967 | Shoals:5 | Defeated Ilsuiw
 79987 | Shoals:5 | Lost mutation: You have a fast metabolism.
 80198 | Shoals:5 | Identified the cursed -3 cloak of Freedom {Str+2} (You found it on level 5 of the Shoals)
 80424 | Shoals:5 | Got a barnacled rune of Zot
 80727 | Lair:2   | Lost mutation: You cover ground slowly.
 80985 | Elf:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Elven Halls
 82182 | Elf:1    | Noticed Psyche
 82188 | Elf:1    | Defeated Psyche
 82793 | Elf:2    | Noticed Donald
 82802 | Elf:2    | Defeated Donald
 82806 | Elf:2    | Reached XP level 20. HP: 108/108 MP: 16/44
 83254 | Elf:2    | Your ally Donald died
 85201 | Elf:4    | Identified the ring "Duulaog"
 85706 | Elf:4    | Found Qubidghoilo's Food Shoppe.
 86190 | Elf:5    | Entered Level 5 of the Elven Halls
 86216 | Elf:5    | Reached skill level 1 in Unarmed Combat
 86697 | Elf:5    | Noticed a deep elf blademaster
 87421 | Elf:5    | Defeated a deep elf blademaster
 88287 | Elf:5    | Noticed a deep elf blademaster
 89200 | Elf:5    | Defeated a deep elf blademaster
 89405 | Elf:5    | Reached skill level 10 in Transmutations
 89489 | Elf:5    | Identified the cursed +3 leather armour of the Snail (You took it off a deep elf death mage on level 5 of the Elven Halls)
 89775 | Elf:5    | Identified the +3 leather armour of Curiosity (You took it off a deep elf mage on level 5 of the Elven Halls)
 90005 | Elf:5    | Noticed a deep elf master archer
 90015 | Elf:5    | Defeated a deep elf master archer
 90017 | Elf:5    | Reached XP level 21. HP: 97/113 MP: 13/45
 90117 | Elf:5    | Identified the amulet of Incredulity
 90117 | Elf:5    | Identified the ring "Faodgheve"
 90117 | Elf:5    | Noticed a deep elf master archer
 90149 | Elf:5    | Defeated a deep elf master archer
 90366 | Elf:5    | Got the cursed quarterstaff of Zaimuwn {crush, rElec rPois}
 90476 | Elf:5    | Got the dagger "Pendulum" {holy, +Blink +Inv rElec rF++}
 91036 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 7 spell: Ring of Flames
 91328 | Vault:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Vaults
 92637 | Vault:2  | Found Effa Guo's Food Emporium.
 92675 | Vault:2  | Found Loagaa's Antique Armour Shoppe.
 92682 | Vault:2  | Bought a runed robe for 19 gold pieces
 92682 | Vault:2  | Bought an embroidered robe for 19 gold pieces
 92682 | Vault:2  | Bought an embroidered robe for 19 gold pieces
 93131 | Vault:2  | Found Arrideoh's Antique Weapon Boutique.
 93242 | Vault:2  | Found Mnepam's Magic Scroll Emporium.
 93247 | Vault:2  | Found Beoz's Assorted Antiques.
 93499 | Vault:3  | Noticed a deep elf conjurer
 93508 | Vault:3  | Defeated a deep elf conjurer
 94073 | Vault:3  | Found a staircase to the Crypt.
 95436 | Vault:4  | Found Moedeh's Armour Emporium.
 95828 | Vault:4  | Gained mutation: You are agile (Dex +1).
 96808 | Vault:5  | Found a staircase to the Hall of Blades.
 96993 | Vault:5  | Reached skill level 5 in Fire Magic
 96993 | Vault:5  | Reached XP level 22. HP: 119/119 MP: 6/45
 98051 | Vault:6  | Found a magical portal.
 98062 | WizLab   | Entered Eringya's Formal Garden
 98070 | WizLab   | Identified a rod of destruction [ice]
 98118 | WizLab   | Got a colourful book
 98123 | WizLab   | Got a sparkling book
 98130 | WizLab   | Got a droning book
 98132 | WizLab   | Got a yellowed book
 98143 | WizLab   | Identified Amoam's Tome of Earthen Ice (You found it in Eringya's Formal Garden)
 98143 | WizLab   | Identified Easy Secret Knowledge (You found it in Eringya's Formal Garden)
 98143 | WizLab   | Identified The Advanced Guide to Sorcery (You found it in Eringya's Formal Garden)
 98143 | WizLab   | Identified the Catalogue of the Shifting Snowflakes (You found it in Eringya's Formal Garden)
 98445 | WizLab   | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
 98810 | Vault:6  | Noticed Mennas
 98912 | Vault:6  | Defeated Mennas

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1567

Joined: Friday, 21st January 2011, 22:56

Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 14:00

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

minmay wrote:Is there a reason for not letting the player toggle level 0 skills in the new system?

I haven't played with the new system yet, but if you cant manually learn level 0 skills this removal of victory dancing seems a little half-assed. So I am also interested in an answer to minmay's question.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1531

Joined: Saturday, 5th March 2011, 06:29

Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 14:09

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

That was one issue - it took me a seriously long time to get Fighting 1. I'd cleared Swamp before I got it.

Couldn't understand why it didn't happen - kept meleeing stuff for a while, then earning XP, just didn't happen. Finally got the level when I killed Margery and I hadn't been doing anything particularly different. It all seemed a bit random.

From that point I got up to about Fighting 7 in pretty much no time!
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 14:15

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

minmay wrote:Is there a reason for not letting the player toggle level 0 skills in the new system?

When the system were discussed on the wiki, I initially proposed a bunch of restrictions to prevent you from training skills if you didn't have any mean of actually using them. Kilobyte proposed to only restrict level 0 skills which achieve almost the same effect and is much simpler. if you have been able to gain the first level by exercising the skill, then we can assume you can keep exercising it higher.
The gameplay effect is that it prevents you from training skills until you find the relevant items (weapon type, book, armour for Trolls and Ogres, ...). Not that you have any reason to train a skill if you have no use for it anyway. The system for learning new skills isn't perfect and will probably be tweaked a bit. It's also possible that the level 0 restriction will be removed latter, but for now, we will test the system with it.

mumra wrote:That was one issue - it took me a seriously long time to get Fighting 1. I'd cleared Swamp before I got it.

I will increase the frequency of exercises, so it will be easier to gain it. What was your aptitude?
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1531

Joined: Saturday, 5th March 2011, 06:29

Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 15:03

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

galehar wrote:
mumra wrote:That was one issue - it took me a seriously long time to get Fighting 1. I'd cleared Swamp before I got it.

I will increase the frequency of exercises, so it will be easier to gain it. What was your aptitude?


DEWz, so -2 aptitude - char dump is in my post above, you can see I finally gained Fighting 1 on D:21! Had been making an effort to melee anything I felt safe to thru most of the game.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1531

Joined: Saturday, 5th March 2011, 06:29

Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 15:05

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

I should add that there was another game where I got Fighting 1 very easily quite early on. Maybe it's just harder further down the line if you miss that early opportunity?
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Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 5832

Joined: Thursday, 10th February 2011, 18:30

Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 15:53

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

Playing similar characters, I feel I am seeing skills level later than I expected as well. I use auto, not manual.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
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Bim

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 700

Joined: Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 15:51

Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 15:57

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

It's more than it being a hassle to experienced players: level 0 skills being treated in this way will be very unintuitive to new players

I agree that it does seem a bit odd and seems a bit 'well I can turn skills on and off...but why can't I turn some skills on and off?'. As good as the new system is, the old mode was easily intuitive. You hit stuff, your xp goes down and your levels goes up. It takes all of about 10 seconds to realise what's happening. However obviously that got rubbish later on, when you kill something and spend ages magic darting the wall, but I just feel that this needs abit more work to make it intuitive somehow.

Perhaps making it possible to turn all skills on and off would make it easier, especially as, just like if you gain a level in axes for firestorming stuff, we're moving completely away from the idea that doing a specific action improves that skill. Therefore, I can't really see any reason why it would not make sense just to let players turn on and off what they want. Just seems a bit arbitrary if not.
2012 Winner of fewest proposed ideas implemented by devs.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 312

Joined: Thursday, 9th June 2011, 19:12

Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 17:00

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

For what it is worth Gehalar, as a (relatively) new player, I like the way you have things set up now.

Might need some polishing, but it definitaly seems a step in the right direction.

Lair Larrikin

Posts: 23

Joined: Tuesday, 21st December 2010, 05:10

Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 01:26

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

From what I've played in the last few days, I think this part of the new training system is almost entirely better than the previous one (except for the issue with piety-on-skill-training gods, like Sif Muna).

And as for the odd timing of skill increases, dpeg's first suggestion sounds like the best way to fix it:
dpeg wrote:1) Train skills as now, but only level a skill when it is actually used.

Temple Termagant

Posts: 11

Joined: Sunday, 3rd July 2011, 16:18

Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 05:32

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

The seemingly odd timing is preferable to having potentially multiple skills at 95% of the next level, simply waiting for it to be used. The experience that went into leveling it up is wasted until you realize it has happened and do whatever action you need to do. It adds more micromanagement to the skill screen than is necessary, when it is only having to unlearn the old system that makes it appear strange.
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Blades Runner

Posts: 575

Joined: Tuesday, 18th January 2011, 15:11

Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 07:36

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

Nobody wrote:And as for the odd timing of skill increases, dpeg's first suggestion sounds like the best way to fix it:
dpeg wrote:1) Train skills as now, but only level a skill when it is actually used.


that's restricted victory dancing.
phrasing appropriately the level-up message (as per xuaxua's last suggestion way above) should be enough. it can feel strange, but you'll get used to it soon enough.
Wins: DDBe (3 runes, morgue file)

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 13:05

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

Have to agree with absolutego.

After some playing, my main quirk is the 0% for deselected skills. I know that this is very often what you want, but, at least for me, it is also not what I want: suppose I start a VM. I'll want to disable Poison soon enough, so that it doesn't eat all the xp. However, I never intended Poison to stall at skill 6 -- I was perfectly happy it would grow, just slower. With the current system (no matter whether auto or manual), I have to make sure to turn out Poison at some point, and then switch if off again. In other words, I need to spend more time with the skills screen than I used to (and also more time than I'd like to expect from a new player).
However, galehar is aware of this. The Focusing solution will fix this, I think, even if it may not be as convenient as the old state. I guess that's the price to pay for eradication of victory dancing (which is a huge plus).
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Barkeep

Posts: 4434

Joined: Tuesday, 11th January 2011, 12:28

Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 13:09

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

dpeg wrote:After some playing, my main quirk is the 0% for deselected skills. I know that this is very often what you want, but, at least for me, it is also not what I want: suppose I start a VM. I'll want to disable Poison soon enough, so that it doesn't eat all the xp. However, I never intended Poison to stall at skill 6 -- I was perfectly happy it would grow, just slower.


What if you could set training for a skill to, say, "Focused", "Normal", "Slow", and "Off"?
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Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 13:12

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

njvack wrote:
dpeg wrote:After some playing, my main quirk is the 0% for deselected skills. I know that this is very often what you want, but, at least for me, it is also not what I want: suppose I start a VM. I'll want to disable Poison soon enough, so that it doesn't eat all the xp. However, I never intended Poison to stall at skill 6 -- I was perfectly happy it would grow, just slower.


What if you could set training for a skill to, say, "Focused", "Normal", "Slow", and "Off"?


That is definitely one too many. If I was more concerned about the issue than I am, I'd suggest three levels (Normal, Slow, Off). Galehar made it clear that disabled skills training a little is not going to happen, so I didn't push this point.
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Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 13:23

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

three levels are enough. say {!, +, -}. although there could be a joke option where you set the weights up by hand, and they have to add to 100 or you leak skill points all over the dungeon floor. :)

after playing with it a little while (i've been stuck doing a 15-runer this week and that was a first for me, so i didn't want to mess up with experimental changes) i have to say that i'm liking auto very much, even more so than i expected. after galehar's tweaking regarding fighting and spellcasting, you gain those quick enough. everything else, so far, is a breeze. the fact that there are two modes is confusing, and manual seems cheating somehow (leveling up skills i don't use?), but overall it's way better than the experience pool management simulator.
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Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 13:33

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

dpeg wrote:That is definitely one too many. If I was more concerned about the issue than I am, I'd suggest three levels (Normal, Slow, Off). Galehar made it clear that disabled skills training a little is not going to happen, so I didn't push this point.

3 levels is definitely the maximum to have. More and we could as well allow the player to set directly the percentages. Now, there's 2 ways to go about it. Either (normal, slow, off) or (fast, normal, off). You could say it's equivalent since everything is proportional, but my idea is that you can select only one skill as fast. Why? Because sometimes you want all your skills to level up at a reasonable rate sometimes you want to increase the speed of one skill for a specific goal, while keeping the other levelling slowly, and sometimes you want to sacrifice everything to level up a single skill as fast as possible (turn on manual).
For this to work effectively, no skill should train too fast. In 0.7 and before, we used to disable weapon skills and some spell schools to keep them in-check at 1/4 training speed. But we don't have to reproduce this awkward system, I believe it's better to address the source of the problem and slow down the training of some skills. Make weapon skills training depend on the weapon base damage. You need more hits to kill an enemy with a weak weapon, so it only trains with x_chance_in_y(base_damage, 20) (except if you're trying to learn the skill).
For spell schools, any spell with conjuration as one of its school as a lower chance to train. The chance is number_of_schools / 4. So 1/4 for IMB, 1/2 for throw flame, and 3/4 for cloud spells. Hopefully, this will help to bring auto mode closer to the goal of training effectively your skills without you having to worry too much about it.
I'm actually implementing this right now. Those numbers can be tweaked, I'm open for suggestions. Let's try to spot the skills which train too fast and slow them down, while giving the player tools (focus and manual) to increase the training speed of the skills he needs.
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Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 14:17

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

Eh, damn ninjas. I had written up a big post, and now almost everything I wanted to know has already been adressed.

I think that you usually want more levels of skills that you use a lot, at least at low and medium levels. If you don't, something is wrong with the skills. So I think axing the off option and bringing back slow (with reduction depending on skill level) might be better. I think whatever is more convenient for most people should be used. But making skills that are frequently spammed train at a reasonable speed is great. Maybe a slow option wont be needed after this.

I think training with spells which are only half conj should be slowed down just as much as pure conj. Pure conjuration is usually no more spammy than half conjuration (throw flame vs magic dart for example). Clouds are less spammy. Special cases could be introduced for spells like sticky flame and conjure flame, but that is probably unnecessary. Playtesting should be used to determine good values for training slowdowns.

An issue that occurred to me while thinking about this: how does the new training system handle exercise spam from turned off skills? Queue length is only 100 I think, and some casters can fill that up (or at least get close) with just exercises for conj, an elemental school and spellcasting (maybe some stealth, dodging and T&D thrown in). Fighters also mostly exercise their weapon skill, fighting and armor/dodging. If all highly used skills are turned off only very few exercises of turned-on skills will be in the queue, so the training ratios might fluctuate a lot. It may be better to use a longer queue, then calculate the training ratios from the last 100 entries of skills that are actually being trained. This is preferable to not adding turned off exercises to the queue at all because that would delay the effect of turning skills on or off (not hugely relevant for actual play, but screws with the instant update of displayed training percentages). I should probably have looked at the code before writing this to see if this issue is already adressed in some way, but it's too late for that now. Also slower training of spammy skills would mitigate the problem (if there is one).
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Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 14:19

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

The problem I have with this system is I have found myself PRE-victory dancing.

For example, my EE has to cast Passwall a few times prior to attacking someone just to get some % up in the appropriate skill.
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Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 14:23

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

You could just use manual mode to train earth to the level you want, then go back to auto. Even switching between manual and auto every two minutes will be less hassle than predancing.
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Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 14:29

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

The slowdowns I'm introducing have no effect on unknown skills. I've pushed a couple of tweaks yesterday to make learning skills easier and I'll push one more tonight. Also, exercises for unknown skills are handled differently, they are not in the queue. Therefore, yes, you do have to dance them a bit, but there's no need to do it just before a fight. Those exercises won't be overwritten by others, they'll be deleted only when the skill is actually trained.
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Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 14:57

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

I'd like to see a 'focussed, normal, off.' with one only two skills (50 or 60% in total) being able to be focussed at one time. The reason for two is that most of the time I want to train up fighting and axes, or Spellcasting and earth, or dodging and short blades. I just think that having two focussed skills would be better than just one, as just having one would mean that you'd be forever going back into the skill screen to alternate between the two things you'd want to turn on and off. All the rest of the points could go into everything that wasn't turned off, so they'd go slowly, but still go up.
I really think this would be a massive step forward, as it'd stop an insane amount of time staring at the 'm' screen for people who want more control than auto can provide.
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Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 15:23

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

Maybe. If I allow more than one, I might as well just allow any number. But I believe that for those specific cases, just auto should work fine.

I wanted to map it to ctrl+letter, but this is tricky. If you know more than 26 skills, the last ones will be uppercase and curses doesn't seem to handle ctrl+shift+letter. Alternating between 3 states will be very annoying when you just want to toggle skills on/off.
Having more than 26 skills shouldn't be too frequent. Maybe in this case you'll just select the skill with the arrows and toggle it with ctrl+enter for focus.
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Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 15:48

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

I know. I'll just bring back the "Do" switch so you can toggle between practise and focus.
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Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 16:05

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

Is there ever an advantage to having a partially trained skill? That is, does Bolt of Fire do more damage with Level 15 Fire Magic and 95% progress than with Level 15 Fire Magic and 0% progress? Am I more likely to connect a blow with Level 15 Axes and 95% progress than with Level 15 Axes and 0% progress?

If not, (If partial levels don't help the player), then isn't it best to always have all the experience going to one skill, so you don't waste experience on partial levels? With this system, I find myself using manual with one skill on at a time, choosing the least expensive skill among those that need to be raised to reach the next goal.

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Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 16:37

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

Oh, and while you're working on the m screen, it would be wonderful if you found a place to put the amount of experience needed to get the next level of that skill. Perhaps replace the aptitudes column with a cost column when you're viewing progress? Then if I'm trying to decide whether I want to get freezing cloud's spell power up or work on using a shield instead of a buckler, I could just look on the spell screen and see whether the next level of shields costs more or less than the next levels of spellcasting, conjurations, ice magic, and air magic. Trying to calculate it accounting for aptitudes and the way skill levels change costs with level is time consuming now.

But I can see where that may be throwing too many numbers out there.
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Post Friday, 8th July 2011, 17:13

Re: Bye bye victory dancing

jejorda2 wrote:Is there ever an advantage to having a partially trained skill? That is, does Bolt of Fire do more damage with Level 15 Fire Magic and 95% progress than with Level 15 Fire Magic and 0% progress? Am I more likely to connect a blow with Level 15 Axes and 95% progress than with Level 15 Axes and 0% progress?

If not, (If partial levels don't help the player), then isn't it best to always have all the experience going to one skill, so you don't waste experience on partial levels? With this system, I find myself using manual with one skill on at a time, choosing the least expensive skill among those that need to be raised to reach the next goal.

No you don't get anything from partial levels and so you are right, it's optimal to train skills one after the other. I want the system to be simple and efficient both for optimal and casual play.
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