Allow Octopode constriction to work on larger enemies.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Scaling by size and experience level to eventually allow constriction against huge monsters.

Contrary to common belief, there are situations in which meleeing dragons and titans is not an automatic death sentence. Being able to constrict nasties like those and other threats would be a really cool addition for melee oriented Op, giving them an additional unique attribute exclusive to the race.

I just want to wrap my tentacles around Lom Lobon and strangle his teleporting neck. Now if only you could constrict TRJ and prevent him from running away as well.

[infinitevox]

TRJ, acids, oozes, and jellies should all be immune to constriction.
That's like trying to squeeze a greased pig....that's also trying to murder you horribly.
So maybe more like trying to squeeze a greased wild boar.

Either way I support this change

[crate]

I think constriction should either just work on everything or not exist. It's really annoying that it works on some enemies but not others, depending on a thing that (almost?) nothing else in crawl cares about (monster size, also plus a few other things can't be constricted because of spines or something).

[Shard1697]

Scaling by size and experience level to eventually allow constriction against huge monsters.

Let's take this a step further: remove "size" since what monsters are and aren't large/huge/whatever is confusing and most of the differences are weird edge cases.

Like, which is smaller: small or little? No unspoiled player is going to know. Which is larger: Large or big? Giant or Huge? Why have those distinctions? When do any of these matter(usually not at all, up until you try to throw a net at something and it doesn't work for reasons)?

Remove size and give currently giant and huge creatures amphibious(or the "fake amphibious" they have now where they still get water penalties), listed as "it is tall enough to walk through deep water" in the description.

Also remove that thing where some monsters are "insubstantial" and thus cannot be affected by certain very specific things. I don't think it's important that shadows be immune to sticky flame.

[Sandman25]

Yes, let's remove size and add "It can be constricted" to monster description if you have constriction (Op/Na). All other PC enjoy reading one less line of text.
Size does not matter for nets because you can always quiver net and check targetter (it does not take any time).

[Shard1697]

As far as I'm concerned if I can net Gloorx Vloq I should be able to net a hill giant or whatever. The reasons for which monsters can and cannot be netted are based entirely on flavor, not gameplay balancing of any sort.

[duvessa]

Monster size has a lot of effects but none of them are interesting or add noticeable realism.

[Shard1697]

Monster size has a lot of effects but none of them are interesting or add noticeable realism.

It's probably telling that I have recently finished winning with every species in the game and I have no fucking idea what monster size does beyond "giant/huge monsters cannot be netted/constricted, and can walk thru deep water". The learndb doesn't even seem to have an entry on monster size and what it affects, so I don't know where I would look up that information besides looking through the code/hunting down individual formulas where it matters.

Also... yaktaurs are bigger than ogres???

[le_nerd]

Also size affects average number of chunks and gold when worshipping gozaq. And until previous net simplification also I think escape chances?

[Shtopit]

And how large the radius of the explosion of inner flame is, and how powerful.

I like the presence of different sizes. I would like it better if it did a bigger difference, like adding reach for very large monsters.

It's true that understanding the difference between small and little isn't possible without documentation (I have no idea of which is larger). Maybe one could go with small-very small-very very small-very very very small...

Sizes for PCs do have clear effects (shields, EV...).

[ydeve]

If sizes absolutely must remain in the game for some bizarre reason, small/medium/large is plenty. If that *still* isn't enough, tiny/small/medium/large/giant is already overkill. Anything additional is just silly complications that do nothing of meaning other than confusing the player.

[infinitevox]

size:
SIZE_TINY, // rats/bats
SIZE_LITTLE, // spriggans
SIZE_SMALL, // halflings/kobolds
SIZE_MEDIUM, // humans/elves/dwarves
SIZE_LARGE, // trolls/ogres/centaurs/nagas
SIZE_BIG, // large quadrupeds
SIZE_GIANT, // giants

[Dracunos]

size:
SIZE_TINY, // rats/bats
SIZE_LITTLE, // spriggans
SIZE_SMALL, // halflings/kobolds
SIZE_MEDIUM, // humans/elves/dwarves
SIZE_LARGE, // trolls/ogres/centaurs/nagas
SIZE_BIG, // large quadrupeds
SIZE_GIANT, // giants

Elephant: Giant
Cerebov: Giant
Wasp: tiny
Spriggan: litttle
Spriggan riding a Wasp: small


Also, water is effected by size, too, and it's not really mentioned anywhere ingame, so you might be surprised when you play Mf and run away to a pool of deep water and find the elephant can follow you!

At least player size is intended to affect the fumbling in water as well, not sure about monsters in this case:

"<Sequell> shallow water[1/2]: Waist-deep pools of water. Moving through this stuff is gonna be really slow! All but Ogre, Troll, Centaur, Gray draconian, Naga, Merfolk, or Octopode players in shallow water will fumble their attack 4-out-of-DEX times, and 20% of the time regardless as well. Monsters will fumble their attack 1/4 of the time."

I agree with one poster, it's an interesting mechanic, adds a bit more depth, maybe can be cleaned up a bit. Personally, I've noticed the size mechanics in my games and do believe they are noticeable, despite not being in your face like some of our favorite dcss mechanics. I think we've come up with a reasonable list of things that size has an impact on, and most of them seem to make sense and can even (rarely) add some tactical depth if you pay attention to it. The constriction mechanic is a little bit complex, and potentially very powerful against the player, imo it's understandable in that case to give up some flavor for balance, though.

I guess the alternative would be to give up official 'size' effects and sizes, only put them potentially in text descriptions, and hard code all of those special cases related to size into the monsters on a case by case basis? I'm not sure if that's necessary, but probably wouldn't be that noticeably different.

[Shtopit]

About octopodes: there are 2 things I thought of.

The first is: octopodes have a lot of tentacles. They could use more than one tentacle to constrict monsters larger than medium. 2 for large, 4 for big, 8 for giant. This means that they would not be able to grab 2 iron dragons, but they could constrict 1 at a time.

The second is adding a "powerful/weak tentacles" mutation: powerful: it allows you to constrict monsters in increasingly large size categories as the 3 levels stack; weak: it gradually reduces the size of the enemies you can constrict.

I like the first one better.

[PowerOfKaishin]

TRJ, acids, oozes, and jellies should all be immune to constriction.
That's like trying to squeeze a greased pig....that's also trying to murder you horribly.
So maybe more like trying to squeeze a greased wild boar.

Either way I support this change

I realize that amorphous blobs are immune to constriction. Bear in mind that I used Lom Lobon in the previous sentence as he is also something that can currently not be constricted. I was making a hopeful wish that one day I could constrict TRJ (even though it probably won't happen).

About octopodes: there are 2 things I thought of.

The first is: octopodes have a lot of tentacles. They could use more than one tentacle to constrict monsters larger than medium. 2 for large, 4 for big, 8 for giant. This means that they would not be able to grab 2 iron dragons, but they could constrict 1 at a time.

The second is adding a "powerful/weak tentacles" mutation: powerful: it allows you to constrict monsters in increasingly large size categories as the 3 levels stack; weak: it gradually reduces the size of the enemies you can constrict.

I like the first one better.

I like the first idea better as well and would wholeheartedly approve. Get wrecked gold dragon.