Spell proposal: Vice Grip

[removeelyvilon]

MAD ARTISTIC SKILLS!



Vice Grip (dank alternate names: snake arms, deadly reach)

Level 4* transmutations magic

found in the book of changes*

Inflates your (appendage) and turns it rubbery, allowing you to stretch and <stupid puns incoming
yank up an enemy up to 7* tiles away (depending on spellpower, minimum 4* tiles), pulling it adjecent to you.
You then begin to crush the victim, constricting** it (follows normal constiction rules except you can grab things taller than you)*

*can be changed if overpowered
**or ditched entirely

Pros: pulls dangerous ranged enemies towards you, extra damage, make evasive enemies easier to hit
Cons: Single target, limited range at lower spell power, cannot pull enemies that are hiding behind obstacles (such as other monsters)

Reasons:
-ugh... um... uh...
-I think there is a lot of unused potential and "fantasy" when it comes to tmut spells, like a rubber-based spell in this example
-also unused potential for non-form, non-alchemy*** based tmut spells
-gotta start somewhere

***irradiate, petrify, alistair's etc.

[PowerOfKaishin]

As a primarily melee class, Transmuter would greatly appreciate Bolt of "Get the fuck over here". Since that's my favorite class and I could think of quite a few interesting uses for this, I support this change.

They shouldn't get constriction, or at least if they do it shouldn't do damage or last forever.

There is a reason only Octopodes get constriction at level 1. Octopode DPS on constricted enemies is godlike (provided you don't die) since they take a ton of passive damage and are significantly easier to hit.

I also think it shouldn't do damage on the first turn. That way you can use it on a weak enemy and then move next turn, using it as a chokepoint.

Fun fact: Player constriction also prevents blink and teleportation attempts (or causes them to be significantly less reliable). It can help against certain opponents but is mostly a novelty.

[ydeve]

This sounds like a translocations spell.

[ydeve]

Mechanically this is translocations, not transmutations.

[PowerOfKaishin]

This sounds like a translocations spell.

It does, which is why I assume he flavored it like a transmutations spell. You could make it both, by making it like portal projectile but reversed (your goopy arm goes through the portal and grabs the enemy). That would make it smite targetted though, which would then be balanced by the fact that it's a 2-school level 4 spell and that is hard to get going in the parts of the game where this is most useful unless you're dedicated towards one of the schools.

Besides, it's not like transmutations doesn't already intrude on the design space of other schools. Looking at you, S2S.

[duvessa]

Make it tloc and call it "blink other". Doesn't need to be smite targeted.

[removeelyvilon]

I just flavoured it tmut because tm is a background I like to play
and I got inspired by characters like Mr. Fantastic so it seemed like a good starting point.
So I thought to myself "what kind of spell would a transmuter appreciate?"
PowerOfKaishin described it perfectly.

That being said, making this tloc instead (and losing the constrction part) is perfectly fine by me if that's what the people want.

(Side note: whether spell shools should have the monopoly over one type of effect is a discussion for another thread)

[PleasingFungus]

range shouldn't be limited by spellpower, because we're going to want to roll against the spellpower to avoid hard breakpoints (range 5 at exactly 55 power or w/e). instead, make the distance you actually pull the target based on spellpower, just as with apportation.

sort of overlaps with gell's gravitas in terms of functionality, but dramatically greater range and single-target effect might be enough to differentiate it. i do like the fundamental concept, it's something i was idly thinking about the other day (but without the constriction effect - not sure how i feel about that)

agreed it shouldn't be smite targeted.

[duvessa]

sort of overlaps with gell's gravitas in terms of functionality, but dramatically greater range and single-target effect might be enough to differentiate it.

i doubt it has ever been a good idea to use gell's to pull a monster to you
if this spell reliably put the monster next to you with 1 action, then it would occasionally be good (pretty sure level 4 is too high to be useful though, even if you do make it smite targeted)

[Arrhythmia]

sort of overlaps with gell's gravitas in terms of functionality, but dramatically greater range and single-target effect might be enough to differentiate it.

i doubt it has ever been a good idea to use gell's to pull a monster to you

well i don't think it's ever been a good idea to use gell's at all, so

[goodcoolguy]

It's a good idea. It would give transmutations a nice tactical angle and differentiate it from standard melee.

Don't agree that it should be translocations. If it's flavored as a physical grab and it's not resisted by MR, it makes sense as a transmutation.

[dowan]

TM already has sticks to snakes, clearly mechanically a summon spell. Ice has freeze, clearly a conjuration. It's OK if there's a little crossover as long as you can explain it, or it works in the game. I like this idea personally.

[yesno]

spell schools should be thematic and not mechanical, unless you just figure the hell with it and call spell schools "MOVE foo OR you" "REDUCE foo.hp" "BUFF you" "SPAWN foo" "APPLY STATUS EFFECT TO foo" etc

[and into]

spell schools should be thematic and not mechanical, unless you just figure the hell with it and call spell schools "MOVE foo OR you" "REDUCE foo.hp" "BUFF you" "SPAWN foo" "APPLY STATUS EFFECT TO foo" etc

They are both thematic and mechanical, though. Different spell schools force one to make choices about experience allocation (mechanical / balancing consideration). Which spell goes into which category is mostly based on flavor/theme, but that flavor involves the general functional ("mechanical") use of the spells. For most of the schools it is a mix. At the same time, the elemental schools in particular are almost entirely thematic.

FWIW I think it is much more justifiable to play fast-and-loose with spell school when the spell in question appears in a starting book. Doubly so if it only appears in a starting book. In which case priority should go to the question, "Is this spell fun and/or important for balance, in the context of the other tools that this background starts with?"

[yesno]

yeah, my comment was a response to stuff like "Mechanically this is translocations, not transmutations." i disagree with this attitude

[duvessa]

repositioning spells shouldn't be in transmutations for the same reason that reaching weapons shouldn't be long blades

[yesno]

it's unclean

[genericpseudonym]

repositioning spells shouldn't be in transmutations for the same reason that reaching weapons shouldn't be long blades

FR: add an unrand long blade demon whip of reaching

[removeelyvilon]

Where do the nice pictures in this thread keep going?

Anyway, from what I can gather we can (mostly) agree on:

-It should not be smite targeted (never was)
-It should remain a transmutations spell
-it should not have a constriction effect
-it should not have spellpower break points

Now the last one I find a little difficult because wouldn't making it act like apportation also have spellpower breakpoints?
Besides, I came to the conclusion (in rpg games in general) that utilitly spells that need much extra investment beyond getting them castable are pretty lousy.
Like duvessa said, if it can pull an enemy towards you in 1 turn there would be some use for this spell.

[ion_frigate]

Now the last one I find a little difficult because wouldn't making it act like apportation also have spellpower breakpoints?

Unless I'm mistaken, the distance Apportation drags things is random but dependent on spellpower. That avoids hard breakpoints.

[goodcoolguy]

Worth pointing out here that the way apportation works isn't actually good. There's no good reason to make the player cast the spell twice to get something. Exactly the same principle applies here.

[ion_frigate]

Apportation is bad because it's rarely used in combat, so there's no downside to having to cast it again other than interface annoyance. For this spell, failing to bring the monster adjacent means you'll be down (another) 4MP in a combat situation, and give the monster another chance to pelt you from range (since that's presumably why you're trying to pull it towards you). It's more akin to a Hex, even if it checks spellpower instead of MR.

Granted I think there are legitimate issues with the way Hexes work, but that's probably a discussion for another thread.

[goodcoolguy]

I don't see why grabbing something with an elastic arm would depend on spellpower or MR or whatever. It should depend on strength and monster HD.

If you're trying to grab a monster to get into range where you can beat the hell out of it, the difference between accomplishing that in one turn or two turns is a matter of annoyance, not mp loss. Presumably you have way more mp than you need. The only monsters that really try to maintain distance maintain a very short distance and would be caught in one shot if it works anything like apportation anyway.