Rework or Replace Monk

[yesno]

The two defining features of the Monk background have nothing to do with each other... Unarmed, and Piety boost. Rename Monk to "Devout" or something, and give them a weapon choice (including unarmed) like every other melee background. That's all.

[chequers]

Good suggestion, I agree that unarmed and piety boost don't have much connection. I think starting Monk with a weapon makes it very similar to Fi/Gl though, so I've opened a pull request to start with generic fighting skills only.

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/298

[DracheReborn]

Do Fi and Gl get UC as a starting option for non-Trolls/Ghouls? If UC isn't a distinguishing feature for Monks anymore then maybe they should.

[Leszczynek]

@chequers
Starting with just a bit more Fighting doesn't seem to make up for having to rely on 0 UC at XL 1, especially for species unable to get anything out of the Armour skill; better piety doesn't matter as you won't find an altar until XL 3 or so. Every other start has something to rely on even when starting unarmed, be it spells, ranged weapons (AM) or wands (Ar). Also depriving a Monk of Unarmed Combat makes it questionable if it's even a monk anymore - perhaps a class name change would make more sense.

Other than that, it's a decent idea.

[duvessa]

I think the change was intended to keep Mo the weakest background, not buff it.

[chequers]

Yes, well more specifically I wasn't interested in what happened to the power level, as long as it didn't become significantly worse, or better than almost all others.

Suggestions for improvement are welcome: think the core of Monk is bonus piety and beyond that the background should be quite flexible.

[Sandman25]

I think it should start with Dodging, not Armour. Even guys in heavy armour train some Dodging but it does not make much sense to train Armour if you are going to use robe or leather. For example, DEMo can easily join Vehumet or Sif Muna and switch to robe of archmagi.

[Tiktacy]

I think it would be funny if monks started with almost no skills but got *****. instead of **....

[dowan]

I think UC and dodging are pretty thematic for a monk, they're seemingly based off the mythical kung-fu monks. Piety goes with that, and seems to work out. I think they're one of the most thematically tight backgrounds in the game actually. Whether the theme itself is worth having is perhaps debatable...

[Sar]

UC Monks is how Monks work in DnD IIRC (well, they also can use some "exotic" weapons), so I'd expect most new players to understand the background as it used to be pretty well.

[dowan]

How about monks start with 0 piety, and 0 in all skills. However, we'll all agree to insist they are the most powerful background, and act like it should be completely obvious why.

Obviously I'll edit this post so as not to spoil the ruse.

[infinitevox]

Give them the option to start with a lajatang imo. Still fits the exotic weapon theme and gives them another option.
Maybe also have them start with boots/gloves/both?

[Sprucery]

Give them the option to start with a lajatang imo. Still fits the exotic weapon theme and gives them another option.
Maybe also have them start with boots/gloves/both?

That would be quite a buff indeed.

[crate]

maybe they could start with a quarterstaff and worship zin

[yesno]

UC Monks is how Monks work in DnD IIRC (well, they also can use some "exotic" weapons), so I'd expect most new players to understand the background as it used to be pretty well.

i know, but that's why i suggested a possible name-change to "devout" ( or "faithful", "pilgrim", maybe "acolyte" or something). also i didn't think reproducing DnD culture was a goal for Crawl design anyway, and besides even if it were, i don't think crawl's monk implementation meets the expectations a DnD player probably has (in DnD you gain unique unarmed/unarmored combat powers and resistances over long term, in crawl you gain quicker access to arbitrary set of divine abilities in the short term)

as for skills i don't know they could maybe start with like 2 invo... but... there are a lot of gods without invo after all. their skills can also just stay the same except for option of weapon skill and they'd be fine, or at least better than currently.

[yesno]

https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c ... 89383c3901

cool!

[HardboiledGargoyle]

I agree that it's better to avoid the association between monks and unarmed combat;

"pilgrim"

would be best: you are conducting a sacred pilgrimage to the dungeon, in search of legendary altars, and the rest writes itself.

[yesno]

yeah, i like that one too.

[infinitevox]

Martial Artist imo

[Reptisaurus]

As a fan of crappy starting backgrounds, I am displeased.

(Really!)

[PleasingFungus]

play mumo, my friend

[milski]

How about monks start with 0 piety, and 0 in all skills. However, we'll all agree to insist they are the most powerful background, and act like it should be completely obvious why.

Obviously I'll edit this post so as not to spoil the ruse.

Oh gitp forums, how I missed thee and thy partially charged wands

[4Hooves2Appendages]

As a fan of crappy starting backgrounds, I am displeased.

(Really!)

You can always start-scum for some truly horrendous Wanderers. They exist.

[Hellmonk]

Rest in pizza demigod monk. You were too pure for this cruel world.

[rchandra]

I'm just glad that good older suggestions can be redone, and might get followed!

[yesno]

so i feel a little shy making another suggestion here after such a nice change was already made, but how about quarterstaves among options for monk starter? just seems like they should have one...

[triorph]

How about monks start with 0 piety, and 0 in all skills. However, we'll all agree to insist they are the most powerful background, and act like it should be completely obvious why.

Obviously I'll edit this post so as not to spoil the ruse.

Ah.. the ol' Chei trick.

[DracheReborn]

so i feel a little shy making another suggestion here after such a nice change was already made, but how about quarterstaves among options for monk starter? just seems like they should have one...

It's getting harder and harder to tell Mo and Gl apart... or is that the intention? Stealth removal by making 2 backgrounds the same

[yesno]

mo doesn't have armor or nets and has lower fighting and weapon skills...

[TonberryJam]

The only buff Monk needs is for Fo to have upwards to 4 attacks with UC.

[Shard1697]

The only buff Monk needs is for Fo to have upwards to 4 attacks with UC.

3 unarmed punches without shield(and 1 with) would not be broken. I'm in favor

[Tressol]

The point of the monk is that you're trading your starting gear for the piety. Since you have no starting gear, you have no weapon, thus unarmed skill. Piety is a somewhat limited resource, perhaps analogous to a Gladiator's nets (and weapon/armor/helm) or a Fighter's might potion (and weapon/armour/shield). Giving up the gear means giving up the skill associated with the gear. I don't understand what's wrong with this arrangement. Next people will be asking for Fi to start with Evo instead of Shield skill, because not all fighters want to wear shields the whole game.

[Sandman25]

That's actually a problem with artificers/hunters. Why do they start with short blades?

[Sar]

Because they need some weapon, but giving them a good one would be too good. I guess?

[Tressol]

Artificers and Hunters aside, the piety and the unarmed on monks are in fact related, as I explained above.

I would be happy for Artificer to start with a quarterstaff, but that could be OP I guess. Hunters could probably survive D1 even without a melee weapon. Perhaps short blades are for flavor in that case? Hunters get DEX and stealth, so maybe a dagger is more appropriate than a short sword (for flavor as well).

[yesno]

The point of the monk is that you're trading your starting gear for the piety. Since you have no starting gear, you have no weapon, thus unarmed skill. Piety is a somewhat limited resource, perhaps analogous to a Gladiator's nets (and weapon/armor/helm) or a Fighter's might potion (and weapon/armour/shield). Giving up the gear means giving up the skill associated with the gear. I don't understand what's wrong with this arrangement. Next people will be asking for Fi to start with Evo instead of Shield skill, because not all fighters want to wear shields the whole game.

monks don't get armour, aux armour, nets, a shield, or a might potion, or as much weapon skill ...

[rchandra]

Nor as good a weapon!

[Tressol]

The point of the monk is that you're trading your starting gear for the piety. Since you have no starting gear, you have no weapon, thus unarmed skill. Piety is a somewhat limited resource, perhaps analogous to a Gladiator's nets (and weapon/armor/helm) or a Fighter's might potion (and weapon/armour/shield). Giving up the gear means giving up the skill associated with the gear. I don't understand what's wrong with this arrangement. Next people will be asking for Fi to start with Evo instead of Shield skill, because not all fighters want to wear shields the whole game.

monks don't get armour, aux armour, nets, a shield, or a might potion, or as much weapon skill ...

Interesting that you bring up weapon skill. According to the wiki (I'll check in game when I get home, I know the wiki blows), Monks get 4 UC and Gladiators get 3 skill in chosen weapon, Monks get 3 fighting to a Gladiator's 2. They get Stealth instead of Throwing at 2, and both backgrounds get dodging at 3. So, monks effectively get more overall starting exp, and posess probably better starting stats for a light armor type. But feel free to keep making up "facts" to support your position.

Edit: Facts checked. As of 0.18.1, these figures are still correct.

[duvessa]

Actually, both of you are pulling things out of your ass. Monks and gladiators currently get the exact same amount of weapon skill.

[Tressol]

Actually, both of you are pulling things out of your ass. Monks and gladiators currently get the exact same amount of weapon skill.

I literally just checked *again* with a human monk and a human (unarmed skill) gladiator. You are wrong or trolling. I will post turn 0 morgue files if you need me to. Monks start with 4 UC skill, Gladiators 3. I ALSO made a weapon (maces & flails) gladiator just to check if that somehow made a difference. It did not. You are wrong. 0.18.1.

Kindly check your facts before you claim I'm pulling stuff out of my ass when I explained to you that I had just checked mine.

[crate]

Uh, minmay was certainly talking about current trunk, where monks are not the same as 0.18 monks. If you read the commit that changed monks (linked earlier in this topic) you see that they do indeed have the same weapon skill gladiators do.

[duvessa]

Actually, both of you are pulling things out of your ass. Monks and gladiators currently get the exact same amount of weapon skill.

I literally just checked *again* with a human monk and a human (unarmed skill) gladiator. You are wrong or trolling. I will post turn 0 morgue files if you need me to. Monks start with 4 UC skill, Gladiators 3. I ALSO made a weapon (maces & flails) gladiator just to check if that somehow made a difference. It did not. You are wrong. 0.18.1.

Kindly check your facts before you claim I'm pulling stuff out of my ass when I explained to you that I had just checked mine.

Why are you talking about a two-month-old version of Crawl, when there is a link in this thread to a change made to Mo this month?

[Tressol]

Well, I see that now. I don't generally follow Trunk, and I missed the link when first reading the thread so that's my mistake. Sorry for stirring things up, then.

In my defense, the version to which I was referring to was made clear in the edit on my ("talking out of my ass") post, and there were still no replies when I got home, checked .18.1 and then added said (version labeled) edit to the post.

I still don't think I like this change, but whatever - I hardly play Monks, anyway. If anything, these changes make them even less interesting to me.

[yesno]

Actually, both of you are pulling things out of your ass. Monks and gladiators currently get the exact same amount of weapon skill.

i thought gladiators got 4, my mistake, but there's no need to start talking like that just because that other guy is

[infinitevox]

Don't mind duvessa, she's always inordinately angry to any given situation

Personally, I think monks should start with gloves or boots (or both)

[Shard1697]

Why? Gladiator getting aux armor is part of what sets it apart from monk(better gear overall). A big part of monk as a start is "minimal armor".