Let us turn off ghost generation.

[Hands]

Lots of people don't find them fun, and they're strikingly inconsistent with the design goals the dev team have set themselves. If fun is the only thing that matters then they should be an option.

[Shard1697]

In my view this is very pertinent to design discussion in that one oughtn't follow rules off a cliff. I'd rather play a fun game than a "consistently" designed game, after all, this is a leisure pastime, not a logic test.

Yes, but the people complaining about ghosts in this thread do not think ghosts are fun(they think they are downright unfun, actually!)

[dynast]

You guys have all the right to dislike ghosts the same way i have all the rights to dislike uniques and, objectively speaking, uniques are way more dangerous and flawed than ghosts(sigmund, a d:2 unique with invisibility, confuse and flame, natasha, d:2 unique with slow, imps, high ev, fast and 3 lives).
In fact, player ghosts are normally weaker than the monsters on that floor because they died on that floor, or they died to a unique, which pulls back to the first fact. Oh but ghosts can have elec/distortion weapons, as does pretty much every enemy in this game. Ghosts cant quaff potions(haste, zerk) or carry wands.
Ghosts are perfect for this game. If you cant play effectively better than someone who lost the game, you dont deserve to win.

[Sandman25]

Skipping one floor because of Sigmund and another because of Grinder is fine, both are normal speed and check just a single resistance (MR). Also they have reasonable HP/AC/EV unlike some player ghosts.

Edit. Ok, Sigmund has Throw Flame (3d5) also.

[Hands]

You guys have all the right to dislike ghosts the same way i have all the rights to dislike uniques and, objectively speaking, uniques are way more dangerous and flawed than ghosts(sigmund, a d:2 unique with invisibility, confuse and flame, natasha, d:2 unique with slow, imps, high ev, fast and 3 lives).
In fact, player ghosts are normally weaker than the monsters on that floor because they died on that floor, or they died to a unique, which pulls back to the first fact. Oh but ghosts can have elec/distortion weapons, as does pretty much every enemy in this game. Ghosts cant quaff potions(haste, zerk) or carry wands.
Ghosts are perfect for this game. If you cant play effectively better than someone who lost the game, you dont deserve to win.

This post doesn't entirely make sense but I feel that on a basic level I've been called a scrub and told to git gud.

[KoboldLord]

You guys have all the right to dislike ghosts the same way i have all the rights to dislike uniques and, objectively speaking, uniques are way more dangerous and flawed than ghosts(sigmund, a d:2 unique with invisibility, confuse and flame, natasha, d:2 unique with slow, imps, high ev, fast and 3 lives).
In fact, player ghosts are normally weaker than the monsters on that floor because they died on that floor, or they died to a unique, which pulls back to the first fact. Oh but ghosts can have elec/distortion weapons, as does pretty much every enemy in this game. Ghosts cant quaff potions(haste, zerk) or carry wands.
Ghosts are perfect for this game. If you cant play effectively better than someone who lost the game, you dont deserve to win.

You realize that Sigmund is just an orc wizard with 10 extra hit points, right? He doesn't even have a different spell list.

Most ghosts are much stronger than the normal contents of their level. Player stats are usually off the charts compared to monster stats. They died not because they were weak, but because their player did something stupid.

If Sigmund was actually too dangerous for his spawning range, we could check the stats for the online servers and determine whether he was killing too many of the players in games where he appeared. Uniques actually have been moved deeper or shallower in the past, because those decisions can be based on actual statistical data instead of excited outbursts by players who have just gotten their characters killed by one. Problems created by uniques are at least in principle fixable.

No such statistical data exists for ghosts, because each one is different and there is too much noise to prove anything. It really seems obvious that kiting around multiple slow melee brutes with 20AC and 20EV is bad for gameplay, or that fast ghosts with endgame magic is not appropriate for pre-Lair, but somehow we can't get rid of them because some people like the flavor.

[crate]

what if i hate ghosts and uniques

[dynast]

Skipping one floor because of Sigmund and another because of Grinder is fine

Yet skipping a floor because of a player ghost, who cant take advantage of your absence to gather loot on the floor is not fine, why?

You realize that Sigmund is just an orc wizard with 10 extra hit points, right? He doesn't even have a different spell list.

Yes, but do you? You just described something stronger than what would already be a ood spawn for d:2, do you realize that?

  Code:

beem: * (killer=Sigmund place=d:2) has played 94624 games, between 2006-12-05 01:09:34 and 2016-07-03 15:05:23, won 0, high score 2986, total score 8724670, total turns 132227475, play-time/day 2:36:47, total time 1y+15d+23:25:16.

  Code:

beem: * (killer=orc_wizard Place=d:3) has played 88705 games, between 2006-12-08 20:04:59 and 2016-07-03 14:35:46, won 0, high score 4473, total score 16948438, total turns 217534513, play-time/day 4:07:07, total time 1y+234d+23:10:55.

Most ghosts are much stronger than the normal contents of their level. Player stats are usually off the charts compared to monster stats.

Thats a straight up lie. Only a ghost with decent gear would have off the chart stats and im sorry but those are very rare until late into the game.

what if i hate ghosts and uniques

Sucks to be you.

[Sandman25]

Yet skipping a floor because of a player ghost, who cant take advantage of your absence to gather loot on the floor is not fine, why?

Because you can have 11 player ghosts before getting first rune (22 floors, that happened to me recently). Skipping every other floor is not fun, not everyone likes speedruning and manual exploration.

[ydeve]

Most ghosts are much stronger than the normal contents of their level. Player stats are usually off the charts compared to monster stats.

Thats a straight up lie. Only a ghost with decent gear would have off the chart stats and im sorry but those are very rare until late into the game.

I don't know what game you're playing, but it doesn't sound like the same one I am. Everyone and their dog seems to be running --Fi or --Be and most of the ghosts have quite the defensive stats.

[dynast]

I don't know what game you're playing, but it doesn't sound like the same one I am. Everyone and their dog seems to be running --Fi or --Be and most of the ghosts have quite the defensive stats.

I don't know what game you're playing, does your argument even fits it? Because --Be can dispatch player ghosts pretty easily OR --Be ghosts are very easy to deal with, mainly because they have no abilities.

You and pretty much everyone against ghosts in this thread is using the argument of someone who doesnt care about ghosts to fit their narrative that they shouldnt care about it either, except that they do, thats why they are here and thats why their arguments doesnt have anything to stand on, as you can make the case that anything else is just as problematic, as i did for uniques.

Skipping every other floor is not fun, not everyone likes speedruning and manual exploration.

I am running out of "sucks to be you" to give. Really, should the game be designed around being able to win pressing "o" and "tab", MORE THAN IT ALREADY HAS? Dont you think there is a combo that you can play that allows you to avoid having to do those things?

Everyone and their dog seems to be running --Fi or --Be

[Sandman25]

I am running out of "sucks to be you" to give. Really, should the game be designed around being able to win pressing "o" and "tab", MORE THAN IT ALREADY HAS? Dont you think there is a combo that you can play that allows you to avoid having to do those things?

Should the game be designed around random monsters devs have no control over? Would you be happy with panlords on D3? If you find the game too easy (I believe you do), you should advocate for adding difficulty levels, not some ridiculously OP monsters which can one-shot or two-shot you as soon as you come into view.

Yes, the combo is called "offline play where I can delete player ghosts manually". If you played offline, you can see the difference and probably realize why some players hate ghosts.

[dynast]

Should the game be designed around random monsters devs have no control over? Would you be happy with panlords on D3? If you find the game too easy (I believe you do), you should advocate for adding difficulty levels, not some ridiculously OP monsters which can one-shot or two-shot you as soon as you come into view. Yes, the combo is called "offline play where I can delete player ghosts manually". If you played offline, you can see the difference and probably realize why some players hate ghosts.

I hate adders, i hate orc priests, i hate orc wizards, blowgun kobolds, centaurs, killer bees, i hate whoever picks a potion or wand and use it against me. I advocate for difficult balance, i dont like playing this game like surgery during the first floors, holding my ass on every corner and then as soon as i hit d:4 hope for my god altar together with a randart +10 so i can mindlessly tab the rest of it.
The randomness of what threatens my game is what makes everything i hate FUN, if you like the illusion of being threatened by something or just to play a mindless game about pressing buttons, where even pressing buttons is problematic, what do you even advocate for?

[Sandman25]

I hate adders, i hate orc priests, i hate orc wizards, blowgun kobolds, centaurs, killer bees, i hate whoever picks a potion or wand and use it against me. I advocate for difficult balance, i dont like playing this game like surgery during the first floors, holding my ass on every corner and then as soon as i hit d:4 hope for my god altar together with a randart +10 so i can mindlessly tab the rest of it.
The randomness of what threatens my game is what makes everything i hate FUN, if you like the illusion of being threatened by something or just to play a mindless game about pressing buttons, where even pressing buttons is problematic, what do you even advocate for?

I advocate planning. How can I plan if I enter Bailey as Mummy of Chei and find a ghost with sticky flame 1 tiles away without exit in view? The less unavoidable deaths the game can have the better. Also I advocate for autoexploring. I want to spend my time on interesting battles and other decision-related activities, not on pressing arrow keys hundreds of times on every level.

[Hands]

I hate adders, i hate orc priests, i hate orc wizards, blowgun kobolds, centaurs, killer bees, i hate whoever picks a potion or wand and use it against me. I advocate for difficult balance, i dont like playing this game like surgery during the first floors, holding my ass on every corner and then as soon as i hit d:4 hope for my god altar together with a randart +10 so i can mindlessly tab the rest of it.
The randomness of what threatens my game is what makes everything i hate FUN, if you like the illusion of being threatened by something or just to play a mindless game about pressing buttons, where even pressing buttons is problematic, what do you even advocate for?

Honestly the more you post about this the less I understand your reasoning. You find ghosts trivial but also you like them because of the challenge they bring to the game. You want the difficulty balanced but you advocate for something which can range from 'trivial bonus xp', through 'annoying but essentially harmless busywork' up to 'the most deadly thing in the dungeon' with barely any balancing mechanism at all. It just reads like you like ghosts for reasons you can't really explain and are just suspending arguments under this floating opinion to make it look like it's supported by something. I mean, it's ok to like ghosts, but they're not a rational response to any design challenge that cares about game balance.

[dynast]

I advocate planning. How can I plan if I enter Bailey as Mummy of Chei and find a ghost with sticky flame 1 tiles away without exit in view? The less unavoidable deaths the game can have the better. Also I advocate for autoexploring. I want to spend my time on interesting battles and other decision-related activities, not on pressing arrow keys hundreds of times on every level.

Dont all baileys spawn you at the exit? Also, man... this brings memories of when i fought 4 ghosts inside a bailey... and the other time i left 3 draconian ghosts at another, someone came into my game and said "ha, i beat them all, you fucker!".

Your whole scenario is pretty laughable(chei, mu, baileys), try to come up with a more consistent scenario at least, or dont, its clear that we will just disagree on all this, you want one of the most harmful keys of the game to not lead to unavoidable deaths and you also think its possible to get rid of DCSS's unavoidable deaths.

[dynast]

You want the difficulty balanced but you advocate for something which can range from 'trivial bonus xp', through 'annoying but essentially harmless busywork' up to 'the most deadly thing in the dungeon' with barely any balancing mechanism at all.

Point me to something in this game that does not range as you just exactly described and tell me if you want the whole game that way.

It just reads like you like ghosts for reasons you can't really explain and are just suspending arguments under this floating opinion to make it look like it's supported by something.

Imagine trying to explain why a platformer has death pits against the argument "you could just put floor below and have the player walk back to the beginning". You dont feel threatened if you are not being threatened.

it's ok to like ghosts, but they're not a rational response to any design challenge that cares about game balance.

You can only care so much about balance until your game becomes a straight line of nothingness. Its a love and hate relationship.

[Sandman25]

Your whole scenario is pretty laughable(chei, mu, baileys), try to come up with a more consistent scenario at least, or dont, its clear that we will just disagree on all this, you want one of the most harmful keys of the game to not lead to unavoidable deaths and you also think its possible to get rid of DCSS's unavoidable deaths.

The laughable scenario actually happened to me and I disagree that it was fun. Root cause was a ghost, no wonder I am arguing to remove them.

[dynast]

The laughable scenario actually happened to me and I disagree that it was fun. Root cause was a ghost, no wonder I am arguing to remove them.

Your whole scenario is one bad decision after another, its not laugable because its possible fakeness or exageration, its is laughable because i dont care what killed you, you were a death waiting to happen, the game does not owe you for your bad decisions.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Are you actually arguing that picking Mu or visiting a bailey are deaths waiting to happen? (Chei, well...)

[Sandman25]

Your whole scenario is one bad decision after another, its not laugable because its possible fakeness or exageration, its is laughable because i dont care what killed you, you were a death waiting to happen, the game does not owe you for your bad decisions.

I don't see why you believe there is no place for balance or even planning when players choose to play hard combos. It could be a Formicid or Naga of any god. "Git gud" is not an excuse for "panlords" on D3, I don't want to play TrBe every time.

[dynast]

I don't see why you believe there is no place for balance or even planning when players choose to play hard combos.

Yeah, there is no place for balance if you want to play a hard combo and not be punished for that. ITS CALLED HARD COMBO FFS. Planning? planning to die, sure. I cant see how you plan to have the game where the worst combo is the "viable" combo.

It could be a Formicid or Naga of any god.

Or it could be a felid on its last life who went downstairs next to jorgrun in a game where flight did not generate.

Are you actually arguing that picking Mu or visiting a bailey are deaths waiting to happen? (Chei, well...)

The sum of the 3 things.

[Sandman25]

Yeah, there is no place for balance if you want to play a hard combo and not be punished for that. ITS CALLED HARD COMBO FFS. Planning? planning to die, sure. I cant see how you plan to have the game where the worst combo is the "viable" combo.

Now I see you believe unfair deaths are fine and should not be reduced when possible. I disagree of course, I don't enter Ice Cave as Spprigan without rC+, I don't enter Volcano as Mummy with rF-, I read scroll of blinking when Erolcha comes into view but you can continue to believe there is no planning/balance in crawl.

[Sar]

I don't enter Volcano as Mummy with rF-

Why? There are plenty of volcanoes where clouds are relatively easy to avoid (I'm sure you already know them) and if you get a bad one you can just take the exit. It's a good source of rF!

[Sandman25]

Why? There are plenty of volcanoes where clouds are relatively easy to avoid (I'm sure you already know them) and if you get a bad one you can just take the exit. It's a good source of rF!

Even without clouds there are usually too many monsters with fire attacks, I end using scrolls of blinking too often.

[archaeo]

I feel like we've basically covered all of the bases w/r/t ghosts again, and now this is just another thread about whether or not Crawl is balanced, an eternal question we can consider in other threads. Locked, but if you have some specific and novel point/suggestion about ghosts, feel free to open a new thread.