Make Shields take 0.5 aut to put on/remove

[milski]

Additionally, make equipping a two hand weapon automatically remove your shield and current weapon. As it stands it's annoying to be prompted when trying to switch weapons and shields taking long periods of time to remove doesn't offer much in terms of gameplay, since the response to "shields make it difficult to swap weapons/swap to ranged options" is "well don't use shields, they suck for other reasons."

[PlatinumSpider]

Additionally, make equipping a two hand weapon automatically remove your shield and current weapon. As it stands it's annoying to be prompted when trying to switch weapons and shields taking long periods of time to remove doesn't offer much in terms of gameplay, since the response to "shields make it difficult to swap weapons/swap to ranged options" is "well don't use shields, they suck for other reasons."

I always thought shields took too long to equip. If you've ever seen how it's done you know how fast they are. You put your arm through a loop to brace your arm against and hold a handle, done equipped. To take it off you can just drop it if you want to be fast or a bit slower drop it and grab the loop to hook over your shoulder.

[ydeve]

The idea is you aren't supposed to be able to alternate between a 2h weapon and a shield in-fight.

[milski]

The idea is you aren't supposed to be able to alternate between a 2h weapon and a shield in-fight.

Why?

I understand that's the point, I just do not see a design reason for it. Shields aren't good enough for that to matter, unless there is a serious issue with swapping for resistances.

[duvessa]

Because swapping sucks. It's annoying to do, makes you carry around more items, and rarely, if ever, results in decisions that are both difficult and important.
Yes, rationally you should be able to put on or take off a hat faster than you can put on or take off a suit of plate, but it doesn't result in good gameplay, which is more important.

I would rather make weapon and jewellery swapping take 5 game turns like armour, and remove rod wielding.

[Tiktacy]

I don't see what there is to gain from restricting shields by increasing the time it takes to remove them. I understand the idea is to avoid weapon swapping, but determining the value of defense over offense can potentially create more depth and decisions with each battle. This isn't a no-brainer like resistance swapping. I agree that carrying an extra item kind of sucks, but thats a different problem entirely, and probably not worth discussing in this thread(its definitely not on the same problematic level as ring swapping, and that already exists!).

In practice, all turn restrictions mean is that investing in shields in the long run becomes a waste the moment you find a superior two handed weapon who's damage output out-ways the defense a shield offers(which in most cases is fairly minimal). As a result, I just never train shields(outside of niche circumstances), because there are so many more skills I could invest in that will improve my survivability(often times even more so) that WON'T go to waste.

I assume maybe others find more value in shields, but I personally never felt like allowing myself to spend more time in battle(by dealing less damage with a 1 hander) in general has ever helped me win. On the other hand, I would certainly consider swapping to using a shield mid-battle if the situation goes sour and I need some extra protection to get me through it.

[duvessa]

In practice, all turn restrictions mean is that investing in shields in the long run becomes a waste the moment you find a superior two handed weapon who's damage output out-ways the defense a shield offers(which in most cases is fairly minimal). As a result, I just never train shields(outside of niche circumstances), because there are so many more skills I could invest in that will improve my survivability(often times even more so) that WON'T go to waste.

By the same logic, investing in a two-handed weapon becomes a waste the moment you find a shield whose defense outweighs the damage output the two-handed weapon offers.
And investing in a weapon class becomes a waste the moment you find a weapon in another class that does more damage.

[Tiktacy]

That's not the same logic. There isn't a skill specifically for two handed axes, there is just axes.

You second example makes even less sense but for different reasons. of course it's a waste of experience on the off chance you find a weapon so good that it's worth abandoning your investment. The comparison doesn't make sense in regards to having similar logic though, your comparing a choice that is based on information you know to a choice based on information you don't know.

[duvessa]

How do you know that you will find a "superior two handed weapon who's damage output out-ways the defense a shield offers"?

[milski]

How do you know that you will find a "superior two handed weapon who's damage output out-ways the defense a shield offers"?

Because the game gives guaranteed sources of weapons that do just that, and it seems the design for shields is to make them weak compared to a strong two-hander.

[duvessa]

So shields need to be better or two-handed weapons need to be worse. That has nothing to do with swapping time.

[VeryAngryFelid]

Please don't implement OP idea. I don't want to equip large shield with 0 levels in Shield every time I activate autoexplore and then remove it back when I am actually in melee range and want to hit things.

CA fork implemented removal of shield when wielding 2h weapon but it still takes normal amount of time:

Unequip your shield first?
h - a +0 bardiche (weapon)
_You finish taking off your +0 shield.

[PleasingFungus]

yeah, the actual complaint here is a UI issue. i think we'd almost certainly accept a patch to follow CA's behaviour here; should be pretty easy, since you could probably just steal their commit

[ion_frigate]

Personally I like the way that both Warhammer Fantasy and Morrowind handle this, which I think translates very well to Crawl: you get all the benefits of a shield until you actually need to use your weapon.

I'm suggesting something along these lines:

• You can always wear a shield, with the obvious racial/Ru exceptions.
• Swinging at anything with a 2H weapon instantly drops your SH to zero; whether or not you still get ego/artefact effects is a different issue (personally I think you should).
• You can get your SH back by swapping to a 1H weapon or not swinging at anything for a whole turn.

This is pretty much the same as the OP, but just automates the process and removes a mostly-meaningless delay. The only exception regards artefact effects, but personally I think this is pretty minor and it's easiest to just let the player have artefact effects all the time - there's no reason that 2H weapon + artefact shield is more overpowered than 1H weapon + artefact shield.

[WalkerBoh]

Just popping in to say that shields are pretty good.

[VeryAngryFelid]

mostly-meaningless delay

The delay forces players to decide what weapon they want to use, what shield they want to use (buckler/regular/large). If there is no delay, everyone will use 2h weapon (including longbows and crossbows) AND large shield.
Also I can even imagine switching from shield of reflection to shield of protection at melee range if you are happy with your 1h weapon, that would be worse than casting Phase Shift before every fight.
Found a shield? Use it. Found 2h weapon? Use it too.
Do we want to add no-brainers to the game?

[Lasty]

It would also mean switching to a shield every time you want to run away.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

It would also mean switching to a shield every time you want to run away.

That's also a good reason to remove the protection/evasion brands from (non-unrandart) weapons. I often carry a protection weapon in the early that I wield when exploring or running away.

[Sprucery]

That's also a good reason to remove the protection/evasion brands from (non-unrandart) weapons. I often carry a protection weapon in the early that I wield when exploring or running away.

Yeah, too bad that this thread didn't accomplish in making it happen.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Well, nothing quite like beating a dead horse I guess.

Oh, and Carthage must be destroyed.

[Lasty]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Another thing to throw on the list...

[andreas]

Getting a whatever of protection is actually exciting (well, for me) when playing an Op or even DE or something fragile like that, and depending on the details I may well decide to make that weapon type my popcorn popper because of that.

The problem with the protection brand is hot-swapping the weapon for increased AC. The problem with making a shield hot-swappable is that you would hot-swap it for increased SH. Why do we solve the second problem by making swapping take many turns, but want to solve the first problem in a different way? If the attitude is that constant swapping back and forth of weapons is bad, then why not the same fix that makes it bad to swap armour back and forth?

If it took five turns to swap weapons, then ranged weapons would be a problem. But the upcoming changes will fix that, since you won't have to wield a launcher. Spell staves are a problem, but the spirit behind the change proposed here seems like it should also not like spellcasters swapping between staves to cast and weapons to fight, so perhaps spell staves should also be reworked. Similar remarks might go for artifact weapons that serve as resistance sticks.

Appearances to the contrary, I don't really have strong feelings about this; I'm just curious about the reasoning. Is the thought that the protection ego is just not interesting enough to be bothered with saving? What then is the answer for the cases of swapping spellcasting staves or artifact resistance sticks?

[Sprucery]

If it took five turns to swap weapons

...you couldn't attempt to stab a sleeping monster with a dagger and then switch to a better melee weapon if it wakes up.

[Sar]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Another thing to throw on the list...

Carthage has already been destroyed. Twice!

[andreas]

If it took five turns to swap weapons

...you couldn't attempt to stab a sleeping monster with a dagger and then switch to a better melee weapon if it wakes up.

Do you like swapping back and forth between a dagger for walking around/stabbing and a real weapon for fighting? It seems to me like another instance of what people in this thread find objectionable.

[Sprucery]

Do you like swapping back and forth between a dagger for walking around/stabbing and a real weapon for fighting?

Yes. Personally I don't find any problem with that.

[roctavian]

What if protection brand took turns/xp/something else to build up from 0?

[duvessa]

I think it's better to remove protection brand than to try and save it by making it more complicated. As I mentioned previously weapon swapping should just take 5 turns, though.

[andreas]

Do you like swapping back and forth between a dagger for walking around/stabbing and a real weapon for fighting?

Yes. Personally I don't find any problem with that.

I don't mind either, really, although I think in general I am slower than average to count things as objectionably tedious. But I would certainly not complain if, say, stabbing with your dagger did not require actually swapping to it.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

I don't mind swapping between two weapons (like bow/sword) because the mechanic for that is pretty good.

However there quite a few games where I carry four or more weapons with different brands, especially in the beginning. Swapping between this isn't great because of the interface. Now perhaps it's possible to set up some functions to bind these weapons to numbers 1-2-3-4, like in another well known type of game?

[neil]

I don't mind swapping between two weapons (like bow/sword) because the mechanic for that is pretty good.

However there quite a few games where I carry four or more weapons with different brands, especially in the beginning. Swapping between this isn't great because of the interface. Now perhaps it's possible to set up some functions to bind these weapons to numbers 1-2-3-4, like in another well known type of game?

Suppose the things you want to swap among are in slots a through d.

  Code:

{a@w1
{b@w2
{c@w3
{d@w4


Now you can use w1, w2, w3, w4 to swap to the relevant weapon.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Hmm. There's gotta be a way to do swap to the correct weapon with a single button. I guess I'll need to look at lua in a bit more detail. Thanks though!

[neil]

Hmm. There's gotta be a way to do swap to the correct weapon with a single button. I guess I'll need to look at lua in a bit more detail. Thanks though!

Don't need lua, just make a macro: ~m<F1>w1 (or, if you don't use the keypad, even ~m1w1)

[4Hooves2Appendages]

Awesome!

[PleasingFungus]

If anyone wants to try out '0.5 aut shield swapping', the circus animals fork implemented it on wednesday. Probably in response to this thread!

[PleasingFungus]

update: i tried to pull ca's shield-swap code into trunk, and not only was it broken, the action of putting a shield on in ca caused the game to crash

so i guess that's that for now. sorry, all