Demonspawn Rework


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

KSK

Temple Termagant

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Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 05:46

Demonspawn Rework

first, powerd by death.


Pbd is all-time op. like a semi-makhleb. but Pbd is 2-tier mutation.

so, you can got Pbd even level 2.

in my korean community, some people try Pbd-scumming.

playing level 2~3, not Pbd? just suicide. and new game.

it very annoying,funless,harm the concept of demonspawn.

Pbd - level 2 berserker? you're winner!

Pbd - mahkleb, your invincible.

Pbd - qazlal, your noisy. but you never mind.

Pbd - okawaru, your true hero.

... and same other gods.

demonspawn is fun, but definite Pbd is not fun.


second, passive-freeze/damnation.


demonspawn have 2 ice-path and 2 fire-path mutation.

ice mail / passive freeze

ice mail extremly useful 2-tier mutation. AC+10 vs non-fire enemy

but passive freeze... not useful in 3-tiers.

AC ignore freeze damage, but useless late game. useful vs draconian only?

ignite blood / damntaion

ignite blood useful 2-tier mutation in mid-game, but useless vs non-blood enemy

and now, damnation is not a fire. no reason included to fire-path mutation.


i think ice/fire path mutation, enough just one.



my suggestion


- make Pbd 3-tier mutation, and sightly buff(extend regen duration)

Pbd's worth enough 3-tier


- remove passive-freeze, and mix to ice mail

passive-freeze is weakness 3-tier mutation. Pbd replace it.

ice mail(AC+10) → AC+5(melt immune), freeze enemy hits in melee(halve damage than passive-freeze)


- make damnation not fire-path mutation.

damnation 1 - damnation

damnation 2 - damnation burst

damnation 3 - rDamnation(50% chance ignore or 33% reduce?)

For this message the author KSK has received thanks:
Shard1697
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Zot Zealot

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Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 06:06

Re: Demonspawn Rework

I actually just nerfed pbd. It's much weaker now. Give it a shot and let me know if you think it's still OP.

KSK

Temple Termagant

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Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 08:45

Re: Demonspawn Rework

chequers wrote:I actually just nerfed pbd. It's much weaker now. Give it a shot and let me know if you think it's still OP.


just nerf Pbd? yeah, thats good. no more op, no more scumming.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 14:15

Re: Demonspawn Rework

At first I was like "rework one of the best species in the game? are you nuts?"

The topic title is a little misleading. I approve of the nerf though. How exactly was it nerfed? Regen significantly less or something?
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 15:35

Re: Demonspawn Rework

I like the way you formatted the OP. It seemed kind of weird at first but it actually makes reading it a lot easier considering english is probably not your first language.

As for the topic, I agree PBD is insane, its arguably the best mutation in the game. Maxed out PBD regenerates like 11 HP per turn, its insane especially in zigs.

I also liked your reworking on damnation mutation, damnation from Ds is pretty bad as it stands right now and your idea is a pretty creative way of reworking it.

Lastly, I 100% agree with merging icemail and passive freeze, maybe buffing it up to a tier 3 mutation in plate of robustness(its already a regular mutation anyway).
To all new players: Ignore all strategy guides posted on the wiki, ask questions in the Advice forum, players with lots of posts normally have the best advice.

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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 22:03

Re: Demonspawn Rework

From a metagame perspective PBD is one of the worst mutations because when you're fighting enemies 1 at a time it doesn't do anything (except prevent piety decay). So most of the time it's useless. Now from a real player perspective it is indeed good, because real players don't have infinite patience to fight everything 1 at a time and don't like to mash 5. But if the game is balanced for the optimal player™ then PBD is pretty bad. Except in abyss, pan and hells where it's very good.

I hope DS keep damnation because it's a really fun mutation.

Spider Stomper

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Joined: Monday, 10th November 2014, 21:32

Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 22:13

Re: Demonspawn Rework

Wahaha wrote:From a metagame perspective PBD is one of the worst mutations because when you're fighting enemies 1 at a time it doesn't do anything (except prevent piety decay). So most of the time it's useless. Now from a real player perspective it is indeed good, because real players don't have infinite patience to fight everything 1 at a time and don't like to mash 5. But if the game is balanced for the optimal player™ then PBD is pretty bad. Except in abyss, pan and hells where it's very good.

I hope DS keep damnation because it's a really fun mutation.


Even if you are fighting 1 at a time, depending on the opponent you can fight in a hallway and both gain the benefits of PBD for opponents while chaining them. I guess that's still suboptimal compared to pulling one at a time, but the mass regen of PBD is probably more powerful than the slightly increased risk of having five melee threats behind the melee threat you're fighting.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 22:33

Re: Demonspawn Rework

Ignite blood works on your own blood too, so when you notice you're standing in a cloud of flame, back up to make your non-bleeding enemies roast, too.

KSK

Temple Termagant

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Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 01:51

Re: Demonspawn Rework

PowerOfKaishin wrote:At first I was like "rework one of the best species in the game? are you nuts?"

The topic title is a little misleading. I approve of the nerf though. How exactly was it nerfed? Regen significantly less or something?


hmm, divide Pbd's regen duration halve and limit regen gain.(maybe +7?)

useful keep fierce battle, comparative useless other situation.

KSK

Temple Termagant

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Joined: Tuesday, 12th April 2016, 10:27

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 01:52

Re: Demonspawn Rework

Tiktacy wrote:I like the way you formatted the OP. It seemed kind of weird at first but it actually makes reading it a lot easier considering english is probably not your first language.

As for the topic, I agree PBD is insane, its arguably the best mutation in the game. Maxed out PBD regenerates like 11 HP per turn, its insane especially in zigs.

I also liked your reworking on damnation mutation, damnation from Ds is pretty bad as it stands right now and your idea is a pretty creative way of reworking it.

Lastly, I 100% agree with merging icemail and passive freeze, maybe buffing it up to a tier 3 mutation in plate of robustness(its already a regular mutation anyway).



exactly, robust is not demonic-mutation. Same as scale and body-mutation.

but random scale is fun, forced body-mutation give merit & demerit. it fun too.

i agree robust need some change.

KSK

Temple Termagant

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Joined: Tuesday, 12th April 2016, 10:27

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 01:54

Re: Demonspawn Rework

Wahaha wrote:From a metagame perspective PBD is one of the worst mutations because when you're fighting enemies 1 at a time it doesn't do anything (except prevent piety decay). So most of the time it's useless. Now from a real player perspective it is indeed good, because real players don't have infinite patience to fight everything 1 at a time and don't like to mash 5. But if the game is balanced for the optimal player™ then PBD is pretty bad. Except in abyss, pan and hells where it's very good.

I hope DS keep damnation because it's a really fun mutation.



Pbd just 2-tier mutation. if you got Pbd, you get another powerful 3-tier mutation soon.

Pbd's merit is crazy.

KSK

Temple Termagant

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Joined: Tuesday, 12th April 2016, 10:27

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 01:54

Re: Demonspawn Rework

Airwolf wrote:Ignite blood works on your own blood too, so when you notice you're standing in a cloud of flame, back up to make your non-bleeding enemies roast, too.



yeah, your right. but, player harder than enemy. check EV/SH/AC... finally, boom!
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Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 02:50

Re: Demonspawn Rework

chequers wrote:I actually just nerfed pbd. It's much weaker now. Give it a shot and let me know if you think it's still OP.


As someone who has >90% of their games as Ds, You'll pay dearly for this!
infinitevox on akrasiac & berotato
Busy dying horrible deaths from chugging too many pots of Mutation.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 02:52

Re: Demonspawn Rework

KSK wrote:
Airwolf wrote:Ignite blood works on your own blood too, so when you notice you're standing in a cloud of flame, back up to make your non-bleeding enemies roast, too.



yeah, your right. but, player harder than enemy. check EV/SH/AC... finally, boom!


You have never found the artifact "Firestarter" when playing a Demonspawn with the Ignite Blood mutation, have you?
infinitevox on akrasiac & berotato
Busy dying horrible deaths from chugging too many pots of Mutation.

KSK

Temple Termagant

Posts: 14

Joined: Tuesday, 12th April 2016, 10:27

Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 11:02

Re: Demonspawn Rework

infinitevox wrote:
KSK wrote:
Airwolf wrote:Ignite blood works on your own blood too, so when you notice you're standing in a cloud of flame, back up to make your non-bleeding enemies roast, too.



yeah, your right. but, player harder than enemy. check EV/SH/AC... finally, boom!


You have never found the artifact "Firestarter" when playing a Demonspawn with the Ignite Blood mutation, have you?



i never seen firestarter in playing any mace-firgter. even excluding demonspawn.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Friday, 3rd June 2016, 02:01

Re: Demonspawn Rework

Definitely agreed on PBD, it's far and away the strongest DS mutation. I haven't gotten it since it was nerfed but I feel like even with a large nerf it still deserves to be a tier 3.

I also agree with you about icemail. Perhaps it could be rolled together with passive freeze(tier 1=rC+, tier 2=passive freeze, tier 3=icemail), alongside damnation being made a non-fire mutation branch, so there's 1 fire and 1 ice demonspawn mutation.

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