Add option to see to hit


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 17:17

Add option to see to hit

Here are some screenshots where I am trying different spells vs Aizul (see top right corner)

Bolt of Fire, chance to hit 27%
Image

Venom Bolt, 41%
Image

Stone Arrow, 68%
Image

Mystic Blast, 79%
Image

These numbers are NOT damage numbers, they are numbers which help player to make decisions. Also note that they are displayed AFTER attack so they don't spoil anything, they just help players to get a feel for different spells without playing hundreds of games and noting how good are different spells vs monsters with different EV score (+++).

Of course it should not be visible by default, it is a new option which can be set by interested players.
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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 20:09

Re: Add option to see to hit

Oh my god yes

Also, side note, why is bolt of fire, a higher level bolt spell, less likely to hit then venom bolt!?

That is so unintuitive it hurts. it's reasonable like that that something like this is necessary.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 20:15

Re: Add option to see to hit

Is there any reason it's necessary to only show the numbers after hit to avoid spoiling things? What are you spoiling by showing the chance before?

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 20:24

Re: Add option to see to hit

Tiktacy wrote:Also, side note, why is bolt of fire, a higher level bolt spell, less likely to hit then venom bolt!?


I don't know, I did have different skill levels in Fire and Poison.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 21:04

Re: Add option to see to hit

Quazifuji wrote:Is there any reason it's necessary to only show the numbers after hit to avoid spoiling things? What are you spoiling by showing the chance before?
I suppose monster EV is supposed to be hidden if it's a pan lord or an orc wearing an unidentified ring of evasion.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 21:12

Re: Add option to see to hit

^that actually doesn't answer the question but is another argument for auto-identifying all equipment ;)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 21:21

Re: Add option to see to hit

It answers the question if you are capable of inference. Showing to-hit chance against one of those monsters leaks information about their otherwise unknown EV. Unless you deliberately show the wrong to-hit chance, which is stupid. (Then again, it's already done for MR if I recall correctly...)
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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 21:33

Re: Add option to see to hit

duvessa wrote:It answers the question if you are capable of inference. Showing to-hit chance against one of those monsters leaks information about their otherwise unknown EV. Unless you deliberately show the wrong to-hit chance, which is stupid. (Then again, it's already done for MR if I recall correctly...)


It wouldn't be problematic if you mention somewhere that the to-hit chance could potentially(however exceedingly rare) be skewed by unidentified items equipped to the monster. Hell, that wouldn't even effect most monsters anyway, since if I'm not mistaken the majority(maybe less? I didn't double check the amount) of existing enemies are unable to even wear equipment.

Pan lords list evasion on their info page(don't they?) so it would make sense if they also listed the to-hit.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 21:36

Re: Add option to see to hit

if you show the correct chance to hit, you are leaking info, whether or not there has been an attempt to hit the monster. If the orc was wearing a ring of evasion, you should be able to infer the exact EV bonus/malus on that ring, by looking at the chance to hit.
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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 22:09

Re: Add option to see to hit

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:if you show the correct chance to hit, you are leaking info, whether or not there has been an attempt to hit the monster. If the orc was wearing a ring of evasion, you should be able to infer the exact EV bonus/malus on that ring, by looking at the chance to hit.


You mean the ADJUSTED hit? Calling it the 'correct' evasion just makes it sound like its intentionally misleading the player.

Its pretty stupid though that this even needs to be put into consideration. Just remove IDing already, its the one thing(besides food, kind of) holding the game back from being perfect
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 22:13

Re: Add option to see to hit

Tiktacy wrote:You mean the ADJUSTED hit? Calling it the 'correct' evasion just makes it sound like its intentionally misleading the player.


Misleading the player is what is happening, though. The interface that exists in the game is the hexes one. When you target a monster with a hex spell, it says ''chance to defeat MR'' and then displays a number. In the case where the monster is wearing an unknown MR+ item that number may not be the chance to defeat MR. That the number might in general be based on partial information about the monster's status is not evident from what the targeting interface tells the player.

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Tomb Titivator

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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 23:24

Re: Add option to see to hit

  Code:
Aiming at: an orc, wielding a war axe and wearing a shiny scale mail. (chance to defeat MR: 75%(assuming the shiny scale mail is not of magic resistance(36% if the shiny scale mail is actually of magic resistance)))

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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 23:58

Re: Add option to see to hit

Or more concise, but not quite as much info:

Maximum chance to defeat MR: 75%
Minimum chance to defeat MR: 36%
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Post Tuesday, 31st May 2016, 00:02

Re: Add option to see to hit

If only there was an easy solution that would solve that problem and many more while simultaneously reducing the tediousness of each game.
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Post Tuesday, 31st May 2016, 00:24

Re: Add option to see to hit

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:
  Code:
Aiming at: an orc, wielding a war axe and wearing a shiny scale mail. (chance to defeat MR: 75%(assuming the shiny scale mail is not of magic resistance(36% if the shiny scale mail is actually of magic resistance)))

But what if it's an artefact armour/weapon/jewellery with MR+++???

Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 31st May 2016, 00:28

Re: Add option to see to hit

Tiktacy wrote:Just remove IDing already, its the one thing(besides food, kind of) holding the game back from being perfect
Didn't you recently have a thread about this? Second half of the sentence is ludicrous at best.
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Post Tuesday, 31st May 2016, 00:36

Re: Add option to see to hit

CanOfWorms wrote:
HardboiledGargoyle wrote:
  Code:
Aiming at: an orc, wielding a war axe and wearing a shiny scale mail. (chance to defeat MR: 75%(assuming the shiny scale mail is not of magic resistance(36% if the shiny scale mail is actually of magic resistance)))

But what if it's an artefact armour/weapon/jewellery with MR+++???


  Code:
Aiming at: an orc, wielding a war axe and a +3 Warlocks Mirror and wearing a shiny scale mail. (chance to defeat MR: 75%(assuming the shiny scale mail is not of magic resistance(36% if the shiny scale mail is actually of magic resistance(if the enemy is also wearing a plate armor of MR+++, MR++, MR+, MR-, MR--, or MR--- then its entirely possible that the enemy may or may not be all but immune to hostile enchantments depending on the enchantments you use against said enemy, or they could be increasingly vulnerable, or they could be completely susceptible in the event of multiple stacks of MR-(If the enemy is wearing warlocks mirror(a randart with the ability to deflect various enchantments including but not limited to: Paralysis, dispel undead, etc.) then there exists a chance that they will then deflect the enchantment back at you, which adds to the chance of failure based on the monsters HD which contributes to the shield skill for monsters(the chance can also be effected if the monster is wearing an amulet of reflection, which would increase the ability for an enemy to block your enchantment and reflect it which is displayed as failure, you can see the chance of deflection(added non-manipulatively) when examining the spell you are currently using)))))
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Post Tuesday, 31st May 2016, 00:40

Re: Add option to see to hit

dpeg wrote:
Tiktacy wrote:Just remove IDing already, its the one thing(besides food, kind of) holding the game back from being perfect
Didn't you recently have a thread about this? Second half of the sentence is ludicrous at best.


Well shit, you cracked the code. Guess I'm a #CruzMissile now.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Tuesday, 31st May 2016, 03:06

Re: Add option to see to hit

duvessa wrote:It answers the question if you are capable of inference. Showing to-hit chance against one of those monsters leaks information about their otherwise unknown EV. Unless you deliberately show the wrong to-hit chance, which is stupid. (Then again, it's already done for MR if I recall correctly...)


To be specific, I'm fairly sure that .18 shows the correct current chance to defeat monster MR, thus leaking info about MR-altering equipment the monster has.

And I'm OK with that.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 31st May 2016, 03:22

Re: Add option to see to hit

Rast wrote:To be specific, I'm fairly sure that .18 shows the correct current chance to defeat monster MR, thus leaking info about MR-altering equipment the monster has.


It does not. The desc_success_chance function takes a monster_info as its target, and monster_infos are by design constructed to contain only information known by the player. In particular, monster_info's constructor does "mr = m->res_magic(false);", where false is the argument for the calc_unid parameter.

That said, it does "leak" information in the sense that it lets you calculate monster MR more precisely than the "++..." bar shown in the xv screen. I personally wouldn't object if we made the exact number available via lua, since we already put it into the monster_info.

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Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 03:38

Re: Add option to see to hit

neil wrote:
Rast wrote:To be specific, I'm fairly sure that .18 shows the correct current chance to defeat monster MR, thus leaking info about MR-altering equipment the monster has.


It does not. The desc_success_chance function takes a monster_info as its target, and monster_infos are by design constructed to contain only information known by the player. In particular, monster_info's constructor does "mr = m->res_magic(false);", where false is the argument for the calc_unid parameter.

That said, it does "leak" information in the sense that it lets you calculate monster MR more precisely than the "++..." bar shown in the xv screen. I personally wouldn't object if we made the exact number available via lua, since we already put it into the monster_info.

Or just make monster MR granular enough to be precisely represented by the "++..." bar.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 14:22

Re: Add option to see to hit

The whole minimum maximum chance to hit shenanigan and the extended message shenanigan are both information overload IMO. Just ID enemy equipment... that way there's no problem with showing accurate chance to hit. I don't think anyone can give me a reason why going "The orc's ring glows. It looks [more/less] evasive than normal" and then showing the exact correct chance to hit is a huge problem.
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Post Wednesday, 1st June 2016, 21:43

Re: Add option to see to hit

Where do you see “minimum maximum chance to hit shenanigan”? I see “Be hit chance” and “To hit chance”, so Aizul has an 87% chance to hit SlowThinker with Venom Bolt, a 50% chance to hit SlowThinker with melee, and 41/68/79% chance to be hit by SlowThinker’s VB/SA/MB.

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Post Thursday, 2nd June 2016, 13:46

Re: Add option to see to hit

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:Where do you see “minimum maximum chance to hit shenanigan”? I see “Be hit chance” and “To hit chance”, so Aizul has an 87% chance to hit SlowThinker with Venom Bolt, a 50% chance to hit SlowThinker with melee, and 41/68/79% chance to be hit by SlowThinker’s VB/SA/MB.


Uh...

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:
  Code:
Aiming at: an orc, wielding a war axe and wearing a shiny scale mail. (chance to defeat MR: 75%(assuming the shiny scale mail is not of magic resistance(36% if the shiny scale mail is actually of magic resistance)))


ydeve wrote:Maximum chance to defeat MR: 75%
Minimum chance to defeat MR: 36%

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