Buffs to octopodes.

[PowerOfKaishin]

I just thought of this while posting in another topic. Op is generally seen as wanting to avoid melee combat, but what if we gave them a really good incentive? Constriction being amazing makes an octopode more similar to a glass cannon than a shitty melee combatant, so what if we introduced more powerful melee options?

I have some suggestions and was wondering what you all thought of each one:

- 6 extra auxiliary attacks: I don't think any race could so much as touch Op in the DPS department (at least in terms of melee) if they were to have this. The big issue is that those tentacles are already used for constriction. However, you can already attack with a shield while constricting 8 enemies at once with only 8 tentacles, so flavor has already been thrown out the window for gameplay purposes anyway.
- Cleaving auxiliary attacks: As above, but the 6 extra attacks separate to hit as many different targets as possible with a chance of constriction as normal. Constricted enemies are automatically hit with constriction damage as normal, but the currently constricting tentacle gets a free, unavoidable attack on top of that.
- Constriction lowers evasion: Imagine that you were to constrict an enemy and suddenly you scored automatic hits on them with your main weapon.

Blade Hands Cleaving makes my mouth kinda water. If this were to be a thing then Blade Hands should no longer allow constriction.

[Sar]

Constriction already lowers evasion both for you and monsters.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Constriction already lowers evasion both for you and monsters.

Thanks for letting me know. It seems intuitive but it isn't indicated anywhere so I couldn't tell.

Edit: So wait, if constriction lowers evasion for the user, that only makes Op even more glass cannon-y. This would perpetuate that even further.

[Sar]

I meant, if you get constricted. Sorry, I worded it poorly. I think it's even displayed on the HUD now, get constricted and your EV gets lower. It's not a HUGE hit, though.

[RBrandon]

Octopodes already have the strongest aux melee in the game (except for vine stalkers), with both constriction and the actual aux squeeze attack which gets talked about less but is much more important.

[le_nerd]

To illustrate just how strong Op aux attacks are:

A XL 1-2 zero melee skill +0 dagger octopode can easily melee crimson imps. Constriction prevents them from blinking, and at some point constriction damage (grows over time). Say no to annoying imps!

[PowerOfKaishin]

To illustrate just how strong Op aux attacks are:

A XL 1-2 zero melee skill +0 dagger octopode can easily melee crimson imps. Constriction prevents them from blinking, and at some point constriction damage (grows over time). Say no to annoying imps!

Preaching to the choir. This is the biggest reason that I love constriction. Fuck imps so much.

Octopodes already have the strongest aux melee in the game (except for vine stalkers), with both constriction and the actual aux squeeze attack which gets talked about less but is much more important.

How does the squeeze work? It's not detailed anywhere. Does it only work when someone is constricted? Or is it an additional aux attack beside the tentacle slap?

[Sar]

the biggest reason you love constriction is that it allows you to kill a zero threat enemy?

[PowerOfKaishin]

the biggest reason you love constriction is that it allows you to kill a zero threat enemy?

My hatred for those annoying imps is that great. That's not saying I don't love constriction for the damage, though. I definitely do.

[crate]

I don't think giving octopodes higher-damage auxes is going to happen; that was (accidentally) tried for a while some time ago and then got fixed:

  Code:

<Sequell> octopode[2/5]: For four days in 2012, octopodes had eight times the normal squeeze damage (96 instead of 12), allowing them to one-shot greater mummies (among others) with ease. Introduced, and then ruined, by |amethyst; rest in peace.

I don't see the real problem though anyway. Octopodes are weak, but they're not unplayable, and clearly lots of people enjoy them since they are popular.

[duvessa]

just switch their hat slot to a body armour slot

[Tiktacy]

Let them wear 8 shields

[infinitevox]

Ancedotal Evidence that Octopodes don't suck completely...

Of course this was a few versions ago

[PlatinumSpider]

Hi new here, created my account for this. Beastly Appendage gives the tentacle spike mutation.This should allow an Octopode to stab with its unarmed skill like a dagger.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Hi new here, created my account for this. Beastly Appendage gives the tentacle spike mutation.This should allow an Octopode to stab with its unarmed skill like a dagger.

Oh that's actually a really cool idea, especially considering that Beastly Appendage falls off later. This gives another option for it.

The same thing could be applied to Blade Hands, but that's a little OP and overcentralizing.

[PlatinumSpider]

Not for Blade Hands because that's more Long Blades style than Short Blades like the spike is.

[duvessa]

especially considering that Beastly Appendage falls off later.

THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT OF BEASTLY APPENDAGE HOW DO PEOPLE NOT REALIZE THIS ASLDJFASLKDGHAOIHLDKHADFQEGDAJADSFJAS:LQJW$"JL$W@#%"LJG BZNVIVAW$%N

[nago]

Because some lv.1 spells are very good all the game up to 15 runes and beyond?

[PowerOfKaishin]

Because some lv.1 spells are very good all the game up to 15 runes and beyond?

Not having a source of see invisible is so much fun.

I think Duvy was making a bad pun off of my post though. It wasn't supposed to be punny.

[duvessa]

IT'S NOT A PUN BEASTLY APPENDAGE IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE USEFUL ALL GAME AND IT WOULD BE TERRIBLE IF IT WERE YOU MIGHT AS WELL COMPLAIN THAT FLAME TONGUE AND +0 CLUBS AREN'T USEFUL ALL GAME

[PowerOfKaishin]

So what's wrong with a level 1 spell giving the user unarmed stabs?

[njvack]

Well, since you get one of several tempmuts with appendage, you'd be encouraged to cast it until you got the one that would let you stab. Then it would be the sole source of unarmed stabs, so if you ever stab things ever (and you're unarmed) it would be really strong, so it's yet another level 1 spell that is surprisingly useful forever. And unarmed stabs just don't need to be a thing. Daggers exist.

[PlatinumSpider]

Well, since you get one of several tempmuts with appendage, you'd be encouraged to cast it until you got the one that would let you stab. Then it would be the sole source of unarmed stabs, so if you ever stab things ever (and you're unarmed) it would be really strong, so it's yet another level 1 spell that is surprisingly useful forever. And unarmed stabs just don't need to be a thing. Daggers exist.

With the Op you don't get one of several you get one, the tentacle spike. The Op is a very stealth reliant character but make for cool transmuters, however if you want to stab well you need to carry a dagger and train short blades. Since only the OP gets the tentacle spike from beastly appendage, and only the Op gets a special appendage from the Beastly appendage spell, I'm asking that the mutatioin be changed to allow an Op to get unarmed stabbing without the need to train short blades and carry a dagger. It is so thematically appropriate that I was surprised to find that I wasn't stabbing from it already.

[PleasingFungus]

you can also get horns, iirc?

[Sprucery]

you can also get horns, iirc?

No, Op can not gain horns. Unless that has recently been changed.

[njvack]

I think it'd be better if Op just got unarmed stabs (say, give them a beak even though it's actually squids that get beaks IRL) than it would be for a spell to turn it on.

Really, though, if you want to stabdudes get a dagger and train short blades, or don't train short blades and make your stabs on stealth skill.

[ZipZipskins]

I think it'd be better if Op just got unarmed stabs (say, give them a beak even though it's actually squids that get beaks IRL)

all cephalopods have beaks, octopuses included

[HardboiledGargoyle]

just switch their hat slot to a body armour slot

Can there be any objection to this? There's a race that can't wear armor, a race that can wear auxes but not body armor, and several races that have armor restrictions all over the place, yet no race can wear body armor but no auxes. Body armors are more common, fun, and variable, and you only have 1 slot to work with. Octopodes don't have to be able to train armor. Even the flavor is appealing.

[ydeve]

If Op is supposed to be a "no AC without rings" race, then yes, body armor is a problem. I believe their gimmick was supposed to be no armor but lots of rings? In which case giving them the actually important armor slot kind of defeats the gimmick.

[Shard1697]

just switch their hat slot to a body armour slot

yet no race can wear body armor but no auxes.

Monstrous demonspawn is this. You only get that sometimes, of course.

[Sar]

Monstrous Ds can still wear cloaks.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

in addition to being rare and still allowed to wear cloaks, it also takes many XLs for them to get to the point where they can't wear any gloves/boots/headgear.

[Reptisaurus]

If Op is supposed to be a "no AC without rings" race, then yes, body armor is a problem. I believe their gimmick was supposed to be no armor but lots of rings? In which case giving them the actually important armor slot kind of defeats the gimmick.

Yes. Glorious Octopus Nudity is the best (really the only) reason to play crawl. We all know this, right?

[crate]

From a design standpoint I definitely think op without hats (and with 0 ac instead of 1) is better-designed than op with hats. It's not really very important though; presumably the hat is as much for flavour as anything.

[Quazifuji]

Aren't Octopodes supposed to be a challenge race? They seem to be in a great place for a challenge race to me. They provide exactly what I want out of a challenge race: they offer significant downsides that require careful play to work around, yet they also provide upsides strong enough to make me really want to play them instead of just being straight-up terrible. Why do they need a buff? Giving them body armor instead of a hat would just turn them into a powerful race that gets rings instead of aux armor.

As for the Beastly Appendage idea, I feel that everyone's ignoring the most important part here: Giving a single, already somewhat opaque spell a special, fairly arbitrary interaction with a single race is just an awful idea. It would be fiddly, it would be spoilery, and I don't think it's necessary for Octopodes or the Beastly Appendage spell. If Beastly Appendage added unarmed stabs to every race, or if Octopodes just got innate unarmed stabs, that would be better from a gameplay standpoint, but neither of those makes any sense. Making Beastly Appendage give only Octopodes stabs is an idea I hate with a passion.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

Aren't Octopodes supposed to be a challenge race?

I don't think that the way species are currently unbalanced is an aspect that should be specifically preserved. If something made minotaurs more interesting/flavorful/appealing or simply better to play, but also made them harder, the latter should not necessarily veto the change. And you could easily give Op -20% HP instead of -10% HP.

[Cantwell]

Drowning.

Every time I'm in deep water, constricting an enemy on land, how I wish, how I long for the ability... to drag the monster in with me.

Confusion-drowning is fun, but drag-drowning? Oh my goodness.

[4Hooves2Appendages]

From a design standpoint I definitely think op without hats (and with 0 ac instead of 1) is better-designed than op with hats. It's not really very important though; presumably the hat is as much for flavour as anything.

I like the hat because it's funny, but it does seem inconsistent with the no armour, but lots of jewellery design. The impact is kinda small either way.