Felid repair thread


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Post Wednesday, 25th May 2016, 23:52

Felid repair thread

Lasty wrote:My big problem is that felids basically play a game w/o loot (well, very little loot), and in my opinion loot is a defining feature of crawl. Loot leads to excitement, and loot leads to differentiation of characters as you find different loot at different times, and make choices over which loot to use and which to ignore. The lack of loot makes most felids feel really similar from game to game, and means that many of the moments of excitement (discovery of a loot hoard!) have no emotional or decision-making weight attached.


FR: Allow felids to wear boots, hats (not helmets), cloaks, and wield short blades (-1 apt) and rods.

To balance it out, reduce Fangs to rank 1. Remove the increases to Shaggy Fur with level up. Reduce Fighting apt to -1.
Last edited by archaeo on Thursday, 26th May 2016, 13:22, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: this is a discussion about game design, so moved to GDD
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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 00:11

Re: Felid repair thread

Or, to keep them interesting and not just a variant on Spriggans, make them able to wear two pairs of boots (but wearing two pairs suppresses their claws). No other changes required, Felids are fine as they are otherwise.
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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 00:19

Re: Felid repair thread

That post from Lasty seems very confusing to me. Right now felid is way too close to octopode (or possibly spriggan, I guess); the way to differentiate them is to make felid be able to use fewer items, not more items. This is why I never understood and never will understand why felids were changed to be able to use wands, since that was a step very much in the wrong direction

Now, it's reasonable to think that "can't use things" is not a good direction for a race and thus the race should be removed, I'm not going to say anything about that here.

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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 01:19

Re: Felid repair thread

Tiktacy wrote:
Lasty wrote:My big problem is that felids basically play a game w/o loot (well, very little loot), and in my opinion loot is a defining feature of crawl. Loot leads to excitement, and loot leads to differentiation of characters as you find different loot at different times, and make choices over which loot to use and which to ignore. The lack of loot makes most felids feel really similar from game to game, and means that many of the moments of excitement (discovery of a loot hoard!) have no emotional or decision-making weight attached.


Doesn't removing felids for that sort of go against the whole idea of "Improve not remove" that I see from devs all the time?

Its really not that big of a stretch to allow felids to wear hats, gloves, and a cloak.

EDIT: Proof of concept

Spoiler: show
Image
Image
Image



Despite what the silly kitten pictures might imply, this response was not a joke, I was going to put it in GDD.

I prefer gloves over boots, its a lot easier to rap your head around a large cat wearing gloves rather than boots. Also, maybe its just me, but felids wearing boots just makes me think of shrek, which doesn't seem like a good thing considering the way crawl tries to portray itself normally.
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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 01:26

Re: Felid repair thread

crate wrote:That post from Lasty seems very confusing to me. Right now felid is way too close to octopode (or possibly spriggan, I guess); the way to differentiate them is to make felid be able to use fewer items, not more items. This is why I never understood and never will understand why felids were changed to be able to use wands, since that was a step very much in the wrong direction

Now, it's reasonable to think that "can't use things" is not a good direction for a race and thus the race should be removed, I'm not going to say anything about that here.


The defining feature of felids-gameplay wise is the low HP and poor defenses but having extra lives(similar to spriggans, although spriggans have much better aptitudes and much greater speed), not that they can't use armor. Allowing some wearable loot and adjusting some aptitudes/stats could keep the main gameplay quality that people(or me, i guess) like in tact while still getting rid of the "no loot" problem.

I also think removing their extra speed would improve them as a race overall in terms of enjoyment while further differentiating them from spriggans.

So yeah, give them SOME equipment, remove extra speed, adjust aptitudes for balance purposes. That's all I think is needed to improve them(I'd be lying if I said I thought they were perfect, although I do like playing them).
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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 03:01

Re: Felid repair thread

Why should "spriggan with extra lives" (which is what equipment-using felids are) be a race? That makes no sense.

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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 03:30

Re: Felid repair thread

crate wrote:Why should "spriggan with extra lives" (which is what equipment-using felids are) be a race? That makes no sense.


How the fuck would felids be spriggans with extra lives if they didn't have their speed? Spriggans speed is one of their defining features. I mean, their aptitudes are similar, but I even mentioned adjusting aptitudes, maybe not specifically to differentiate them but I figured that would be implied as part it. They might be pretty similar to spriggans as it stands, and I even acknowledged that they have their problems that need fixing,.I said specifically that they aren't perfect and could use improvement, and part of that is the similarity to spriggans(which I also acknowledged).

Are you responding to someone else or did you just not read what I said and just responded presumptuously?
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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 03:55

Re: Felid repair thread

Well basically my argument is that felids only have two things that are distinct about them, which is extra lives and lack of equipment. I don't personally think extra lives is a good gimmick, but if you want felids to be "x race but with extra lives (it's kobold if you remove their speed)" then okay, whatever, I'm not going to argue.

Not being able to use equipment is actually unique and could be a distinguishing feature, and in fact I would play a hypothetical no-equipment race if it wasn't burdened with the other crap (fast, low hp, extra lives) you have to put up with when you play felid.

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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 11:05

Re: Felid repair thread

Disclaimer: I enjoy playing Fe.

The two things I like about Felids are (1) little equipment use, (2) feeling threatened more often.

(1) Giving Fe more equipment would dilute the species from my point of view, making it closer to Op / Sp. So I oppose that. Perhaps taking away (some of) the remaining equipment slots could be fun. I wonder if some bits of the game would become a bit too tedious though. I'm thinking of stuff like resting off poison without rPois or something. Completely lacking access to resistance against a common damage type (fire in Gehenna say) could be quite painful, involving lots of luring, pack splitting and stair-dancing. More than usually.

(2) As far as danger level is concerned, there are some contradictions in the design. Fe have the low AC/HP - high EV(/small size) combination. Anything that hits automatically is quite scary. So far no big problem. What is a bit odd is that later in the game Fe don't have to be very careful, because they can just die quite a few times. To preserve the threat level I would be in favour of restricting extra lives (e.g. finite number, no more than 1 at a time, bigger drawback). Tinkering with the movement speed might also be an option, but being fragile and fast seems to make sense intuitively.
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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 11:48

Re: Felid repair thread

I've said this before, but hey, I like the sound of my own voice so I'll say it again:
What I would do:
1) Restrict wands
2) Give them 9 lives at the start (of course no more will come)
3) If you die, you won't be teleported anywhere. Just restored to full HP on the spot. What happens to status effects is open to debate.
DCSS: 80: ...MfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTm
DgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}
SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAK{BaFi
Bloat: 6: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}

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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 11:59

Re: Felid repair thread

9 lives from the start seems rather too much. Most won Fe don't die that often in the whole game.
Last edited by 4Hooves2Appendages on Thursday, 26th May 2016, 15:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 12:06

Re: Felid repair thread

Well, maybe take away their extra speed to compensate :)

Oh, and I forgot: 4) no loss of level upon death. It is very annoying.
DCSS: 80: ...MfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTm
DgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}
SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAK{BaFi
Bloat: 6: RaRoPrPh{GuStGnCa}{ArEtZoNb}

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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 15:23

Re: Felid repair thread

If anything I think the punishment for death should be (much) more severe. Maybe not levels, but some heavy drain? Some permanent downside?

I've had a situation with a pan lord blasting me with glaciate. I considered trying to blink, heal, etc. but was backed into a corner. So I shrugged and died to save those consumables. It felt like a free Tele-vivification.

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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 15:30

Re: Felid repair thread

I guess i'm the only person who thinks felids are in the best spot they've ever been and don't need adjusting at all. Before the buffs felids had their appealing (yes, this is very subjective) gimmicks ruined by the race being annoyingly weak, now they are just fine.
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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 15:40

Re: Felid repair thread

ZoFy wrote:I guess i'm the only person who thinks felids are in the best spot they've ever been and don't need adjusting at all. Before the buffs felids had their appealing (yes, this is very subjective) gimmicks ruined by the race being annoyingly weak, now they are just fine.


No, you are not alone. From my first forum post that made me choose the nick:
Come on, are you seriously going to "fix" Felids? It is a unique race, you are going to make it "yet another human" with minor difference
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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 16:38

Re: Felid repair thread

4Hooves2Appendages wrote:I've had a situation with a pan lord blasting me with glaciate. I considered trying to blink, heal, etc. but was backed into a corner. So I shrugged and died to save those consumables. It felt like a free Tele-vivification.

My suggestion is that you wouldn't be teleported anywhere when you die and resurrect. So the Pan lord would be there blasting you again.
DCSS: 80: ...MfBeMiSk}DrEE{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTm
DgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWzDDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}
SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGlHuWrGnWrNaAK{BaFi
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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 17:28

Re: Felid repair thread

crate wrote:That post from Lasty seems very confusing to me. Right now felid is way too close to octopode (or possibly spriggan, I guess); the way to differentiate them is to make felid be able to use fewer items, not more items. This is why I never understood and never will understand why felids were changed to be able to use wands, since that was a step very much in the wrong direction

Now, it's reasonable to think that "can't use things" is not a good direction for a race and thus the race should be removed, I'm not going to say anything about that here.

You make it sound like I was advocating keeping felids but letting them use more equipment. I'm advocating for removing them completely. I think they have three defining traits, the two you identified and also frail + fast movement. I feel strongly that "no equipment" is a bad unique feature in crawl, and I put forward the quick argument for that position in the post you reference. I do think that limited equipment can work, but it's best when it's not too limited, and it's probably a gimmick we overuse as it stands. I don't particularly like "extra lives" as a feature, but I feel less strongly about it. We already have several fast species and several frail species and even two other fast and frail species, so that's also not enough to build the species around.

Basically, I think if anything about felids should remain in the game, it's extra lives, and even then I'd rather do without.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:From my first forum post that made me choose the nick

That was closer to your 10,000th forum post than your first.

Edit: My feelings about no-loot are subjective; I'm not arguing that it's inherently bad design or that no one can enjoy it. The reason I haven't removed felids by fiat is that I recognize that other people do enjoy felids for their "streamlined" play.

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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 17:39

Re: Felid repair thread

That's a shame. It really can be refreshing not having to bother much with loot. I guess I can just leave stuff on the floor, but that feels quite artificial.

The no-loot species need not be fast/frail or need extra lives.
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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 17:47

Re: Felid repair thread

Lasty wrote:
crate wrote:That post from Lasty seems very confusing to me. Right now felid is way too close to octopode (or possibly spriggan, I guess); the way to differentiate them is to make felid be able to use fewer items, not more items. This is why I never understood and never will understand why felids were changed to be able to use wands, since that was a step very much in the wrong direction

Now, it's reasonable to think that "can't use things" is not a good direction for a race and thus the race should be removed, I'm not going to say anything about that here.

You make it sound like I was advocating keeping felids but letting them use more equipment. I'm advocating for removing them completely. I think they have three defining traits, the two you identified and also frail + fast movement. I feel strongly that "no equipment" is a bad unique feature in crawl, and I put forward the quick argument for that position in the post you reference. I do think that limited equipment can work, but it's best when it's not too limited, and it's probably a gimmick we overuse as it stands. I don't particularly like "extra lives" as a feature, but I feel less strongly about it. We already have several fast species and several frail species and even two other fast and frail species, so that's also not enough to build the species around.

Basically, I think if anything about felids should remain in the game, it's extra lives, and even then I'd rather do without.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:From my first forum post that made me choose the nick

That was closer to your 10,000th forum post than your first.


FWIW, I don't think anybody has ever said they like felids being fast. Its okay to have 2 fast species: A frail and a stronger one, but having another hfast and frail just makes no sense.

I do think frailness has a tendency to make the game more interesting though, and although being frail is a defining feature for felids, its also a defining feature for many species(albeit moreso for felids).

I very much so agree with you on the equipment thing, limiting equipment he way felids do takes away the fun of loot, and it only works for octopodes because they have 8 ring slots meaning finding rings can often be just as exciting i not MORE exciting than regular loot. However, I think there IS something to be said about the value in simplicity, many people, including myself, occasionally want a game that requires little to no focus on equipment and are looking for a game centered strictly around combat and tactics with no interruptions when deciding on equipment.

Personally, I prefer the idea of giving felids a few choices in armor, because having none just seems weird to me. But I think my opinions on felids might be a minority.
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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 17:48

Re: Felid repair thread

Lasty wrote:That was closer to your 10,000th forum post than your first.


It proves how much some players love Felids. I couldn't stay silent after "yet another leave" when some guys are trying to remove species which they don't play anyway.

Spoiler: show
And actually this is why I am posting in this thread too
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Post Thursday, 26th May 2016, 21:21

Re: Felid repair thread

I think no-equipment is a much better idea for a race than extra lives, and honestly that is one species idea that is probably worth at least trying.

No, felids don't count, because like I said they have so much other junk attached that you can't see how much of that is no-equipment and how much is the other junk.

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Post Friday, 27th May 2016, 01:54

Re: Felid repair thread

Inventory management is one of my least favorite parts of Crawl, and not having to do it as much is the best part of playing a felid. Crawl is such a complex game with so many options that it can be fun to take some of those options away and get a simpler, more streamlined experience. I also enjoy the lack of potions when I play a mummy.

On the other hand, I dislike extra lives. I don't enjoy dying in Crawl, and when I play a felid I invariably die more than once per game, even when I win. It almost feels worse to die as a felid since I don't get the relief of death; I'm thrown right back into the world with less max HP, making my next death more likely. Sure, I could theoretically win a felid without dying, but A) I'm just not that good and B) then I effectively wouldn't have extra lives anyway.

I would be happy if extra lives were removed and felids were buffed up a little bit to compensate. Or maybe a new species should try a different take on the "no equipment" thing. I don't know.
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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 12:12

Re: Felid repair thread

As someone whose longest streak was 4 felids. Leave felids alone!
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}

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Post Monday, 30th May 2016, 13:30

Re: Felid repair thread

Rast wrote:
Lasty wrote:My big problem is that felids basically play a game w/o loot (well, very little loot), and in my opinion loot is a defining feature of crawl. Loot leads to excitement, and loot leads to differentiation of characters as you find different loot at different times, and make choices over which loot to use and which to ignore. The lack of loot makes most felids feel really similar from game to game, and means that many of the moments of excitement (discovery of a loot hoard!) have no emotional or decision-making weight attached.

FR: Allow felids to wear boots, hats (not helmets), cloaks, and wield short blades (-1 apt) and rods.
To balance it out, reduce Fangs to rank 1. Remove the increases to Shaggy Fur with level up. Reduce Fighting apt to -1.


I don't find loot a defining feature of crawl.

I can see your point in loot leading to differentiation, but I think there are many other ways to differentiate, and "no-loot" forces you to explore other paths.

I like felids because they play very differently to other races (including spriggans that have been mentioned by some).

Letting them wield blades and rods would make them less interesting IMHO. I would take away wands too.
Boots/hats&cloaks/gloves I don't feel very strongly about, but adding many of these slots would certainly be a step backward IMHO.

I haven't really seen the case for making felids less differentiated versus other races being made here. Unless you subscribe to the "more loot experience is necessary" opinion.

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