Remove tomahawk/javelin variety + add guaranteed sources

[Leszczynek]

Let's make this post relatively short.

1. If you aren't playing an ogre/troll, to have a reliable amount of javelins (as tomahawks don't do that much in late) you need to go Okawaru/Trog, pray for Shoals and still end up with insufficient stacks to actually use them as a primary or even a secondary weapon.

2. The ammo change removing brands did wonders for inventory management, why can't we have the same for tomahawks and javelins? I mean large rocks and stones already lack brands, right? All those steel silver javelins of returning are annoying to keep, but you do need them because javelins are so rare otherwise. The only really useful brand is penetration anyway, and even that is only until you get Portal Projectile.

3. You easily get over a thousand of arrows and bolts, so why isn't there a guaranteed source for thrown weapons?

3. If you can't do anything about it because blowguns are too strong, nerf blowguns instead or give them their own separate skill.

[Sar]

but javelins of penetration are fun

[Leszczynek]

As were bolts of penetration but you don't see them in trunk/0.18 anymore.

[Sar]

Penetration exists as a launcher ego, though personally I think removing ammo egos was a mistake.

[dowan]

Tomahawks are really good with some throwing skill, and I've had plenty of non oka/trog characters use throwing as a secondary attack all game. Finding a tomahawk of returning bailey helps, obviously, but as long as you're not throwing your good stuff at everything, rather than just challenging stuff, there's usually enough.

If you want enough javs of penetration all game, yeah, you usually need to go oka/trog. I don't know how acquirement is about giving javs of penetration, but I'd have to be pretty well decked out with a good weapon, armor, jewelry, and wands, before I'd consider using acquirement for some javelins.

[Siegurt]

Suggestion: remove thrown ammo brands, give them to gloves instead.

[njvack]

"Gloves of Penetration" sounds kind of icky, though

+1 on dowan's 'tomahawks are really good' -- unless the formulas have changed, I remember them being strong enough to kill just about anything before it could close to melee range after something like 20 throwing. Large rocks were stronger, but not enough that I cared unless the target was really threatening.

[dynast]

If you are good enough you can kill stuff with stones too.

[Airwolf]

How about a new *taur that uses javelins? Or existing *taurs sometimes get throwing instead of *bows---maybe tomahawks for centaurs and javelins for yaktaurs. Maybe Naga Marksmen could have throwing, too.

[duvessa]

having both tomahawks and javelins in the game is dumb, just have one of them

[nago]

FR: bring back darts

[4Hooves2Appendages]

having both tomahawks and javelins in the game is dumb, just have one of them

Not that I disagree strongly, but by that logic many other weapons could be merged, like scimitars and long swords for example.

[duvessa]

Tomahawks and javelins are more like if melee weapons didn't have enchantment or artefacts or different brands on different weapons, backgrounds started with scimitars (javelins), and long swords (darts) and scimitars (javelins) got merged, then immediately after that merge, arming swords (tomahawks) were added, rendering the merge completely pointless.

I would also support merging long swords and scimitars.

[Reptisaurus]

having both tomahawks and javelins in the game is dumb, just have one of them

Not that I disagree strongly, but by that logic many other weapons could be merged, like scimitars and long swords for example.

But they don't take up inventory space.

[amaril]

Why do there need to be enough javelins in a game that you can use them as your primary weapon? To me it always seemed like scarcity was supposed to be throwing's gimmick (with javelins in particular). Even if you only have 8 javelins, they are still a powerful tool w/ moderate throwing skill--you just have to be more selective in your use, kind of like w/ evocables.

[amaril]

I definitely support removal of tomahawks and removal of all jav brands except for penetration.

Also, blowgun ammo should behave in a consistent manner. And blowguns shouldn't exist--the ammo should just be thrown.

[WingedEspeon]

(as tomahawks don't do that much in late)

No.
I do agree with the inventory management being a bit too much and the lack of ammo though.

[tabstorm]

Ranged combat in DCSS was a mistake.

[dowan]

Well if you remove tomahawks you'd have to allow small species to wield javs, otherwise all they can throw are stones.

Speaking of which... why are there still weapons that are 1h for most races and 2h for small guys? I thought most of that silliness went away along with 1.5 handed weapons way back.

[Shard1697]

It is a bit weird. Bad aptitudes should be enough to discourage them from using them.

But, then again, shield penalties for small species still exist.

[dowan]

They also get SH bonuses, so it kinda works out... but of course I'd be find if that was removed too.
Halflings have a +0 sword apt, not bad at all, but they cannot use a double sword in one hand. I just don't get what it is about halflings and kobolds that necessitates limiting their 1h weapon options. Spriggans are super fast and weird, so I guess it doesn't bother me as much that they have some weird restrictions.

It just serves to make playing halflings suck more than it already did. Being locked out of greatswords and triple swords is bad enough...

[duvessa]

Speaking of which... why are there still weapons that are 1h for most races and 2h for small guys? I thought most of that silliness went away along with 1.5 handed weapons way back.

I wish. 1.5-handed weapons only went away for medium+ species. I'm pretty sure this post is still accurate.

[dowan]

That served to make me sad on a halfling that invested a decent amount of shield skill, then found a double sword. Especially when demon swords are roughly equal in terms of dps anyway, and they can use those 1 handed.

Eh... just another reason to never play halflings. At least kobolds get intrinsic gourmand, which makes me much happier than it should. Halflings are just extra boring humans with unnecessary weapon and shield restrictions.

[Wahaha]

Halflings are just extra boring humans with unnecessary weapon and shield restrictions.

But they're really bad at transmutations!

[TeshiAlair]

I actually forget halflings exist until I roll one and then reroll.

[Speleothing]

Tomahawks and javelins are more like if melee weapons didn't have enchantment or artefacts or different brands on different weapons, backgrounds started with scimitars (javelins), and long swords (darts) and scimitars (javelins) got merged, then immediately after that merge, arming swords (tomahawks) were added, rendering the merge completely pointless.

I would also support merging long swords and scimitars.

The problem with darts was that they (counter-intuitively) did less damage than throwing stones.

Throwing is in a good place right now. I can see the point with dropping steel & silver, but Returning and Penetration are really nice.