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Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 04:41by Iniera
Apart from Sigmund why is this weapon type in the game? Do players wield Scythes, ever? Are the randarts good enough to justify their inclusion?
Edit: meant fixedarts, I also love the scythe of curses. It is nice to see real randart scythe love too though.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 04:43by Sar
Scythe of Curses is cool
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 05:05by Quazifuji
Don't other fixedarts with unique base types exist? Wouldn't it be possible to keep the Scythe of Curses while removing other scythes?
I think then the question would just be what to do about Sigmund.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 05:31by Shard1697
You could always let Sigmund spawn with a scythe, and not include them in normal weapon generation.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 05:33by Sar
worked so well for Yiuf and his hammers
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 07:24by Tiktacy
Sar wrote:Scythe of Curses is cool
This randart holds a special place in my heart, as it played a significant part in my very first crawl victory.
In any case, I think the OP is going about this completely the wrong way. Rather than ask "why not remove this useless item?" I think we should ask "what can we do to make this item less useless?".
I have no idea why scythes are so incredibly terrible, scythe of curses is literally the only good scythe in the game that one outside of an insanely lucky randart(which very very rarely spawn scythes to begin with). I always was fond of the idea to give scythes a sweeping effect that let them act as axes with extended range. In addition to reducing the insultingly high delay.
In case what I said didn't make sense, all % would be enemies that would be hit from a single attack. The first set represents axes, and the second set represents what the scythe would supposedly do.
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Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 07:55by Shard1697
Could also make scythes replace halberds, if they're to be better.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 08:59by Tiktacy
Just wondering, why exactly do scythes need to be removed?
I mean, something normally has to have a REASON to be removed. But I don't see any reasoning behind removing them besides RemoveEverythingTM.
Yeah they are bad, but so are clubs, also I think GSC's are terrible compared to regular SC's in terms of practicality due to requiring way less skill and only increasing base damage by 2, not sure if that counts but it does to me. There are also a couple spells like conjure ball lightning and that one spell that removes enemy buffs that are equally as useless as scythes. There are probably worse spells, but those are just 2 that come to mind.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 09:03by 4Hooves2Appendages
Could just make the base speed 1.6 or 1.7 and people would probably stop ignoring them. That would fit naturally into polearms strength progression too.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 17:26by dowan
Scythes seem intentionally designed to utterly suck. Clubs suck too, but at least they fit in the progression, and are given as starting weapons. Nobody starts with a scythe, and I can't imagine a scenario where anyone would use a scythe, outside of amazing randarts/fixedarts.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 17:51by ydeve
Tiktacy wrote:Just wondering, why exactly do scythes need to be removed?
I mean, something normally has to have a REASON to be removed. But I don't see any reasoning behind removing them besides RemoveEverythingTM.
Yeah they are bad, but so are clubs, also I think GSC's are terrible compared to regular SC's in terms of practicality due to requiring way less skill and only increasing base damage by 2, not sure if that counts but it does to me. There are also a couple spells like conjure ball lightning and that one spell that removes enemy buffs that are equally as useless as scythes. There are probably worse spells, but those are just 2 that come to mind.
The same reason hammers were removed, I guess, except hammers have even better flavor than scythes did.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 17:54by crate
Removing scythes to not trick players into wielding them is a pretty good argument imo.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 19:35by wizzzargh
Scythes with Reach and Cleaving gets mentioned every time scythes get brought up and this is clearly a sign it should be implemented.
Mostly so Reapers become whirlwinds of hellish destruction, but Scythe-Zigging and Sigmund murdering summons and skeletons could be interesting little bonuses as well.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 19:40by Sar
The best scythe I actually used was that:
- Code:
a - +12 scythe of Reinforcement {speed, MR++ Stlth-, DAT SCYTHE}
Probably wasn't worth reskilling my character, probably not as good as a good bardiche, but I still had to use it. Oh, and I had 11 slaying, so it wasn't really that bad.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 22:13by Iniera
crate wrote:Removing scythes to not trick players into wielding them is a pretty good argument imo.
This was my angle, anyway. Scythe reform is obviously reasonable as well since keeping them and adjusting their stats wouldn't be hard, polearms aren't presently a very crowded weapon type.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Thursday, 12th May 2016, 23:27by WingedEspeon
Sar wrote:The best scythe I actually used was that:
- Code:
a - +12 scythe of Reinforcement {speed, MR++ Stlth-, DAT SCYTHE}
Probably wasn't worth reskilling my character, probably not as good as a good bardiche, but I still had to use it. Oh, and I had 11 slaying, so it wasn't really that bad.
If you are a Mf that is actually a great weapon. Speed gives a lot of power to a weapon. Even finisher is a good weapon of a Mf with no bardiches available.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Sunday, 15th May 2016, 22:32by Xion350
To be honest I almost never see scythes outside of Sigmund and Reapers anyway.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Monday, 16th May 2016, 03:39by HardboiledGargoyle
dowan wrote:Clubs suck too, and are given as starting weapons.
to who?
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Monday, 16th May 2016, 04:06by duvessa
hobgoblins
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Monday, 16th May 2016, 04:09by ion_frigate
HardboiledGargoyle wrote:dowan wrote:Clubs suck too, and are given as starting weapons.
to who?
They used to be given to OgEn/As, but
that was removed. This was back when "stabbing" with a club could confuse monsters, so it sort of made sense for stabby Ogres.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Monday, 16th May 2016, 04:18by genericpseudonym
Clubs are a "starting weapon" for unarmed book starts who need to scrounge up a melee weapon off of the first goblin they kill.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Wednesday, 18th May 2016, 17:27by Speleothing
dowan wrote:Scythes seem intentionally designed to utterly suck. Clubs suck too, but at least they fit in the progression, and are given as starting weapons. Nobody starts with a scythe, and I can't imagine a scenario where anyone would use a scythe, outside of amazing randarts/fixedarts.
And now that weapon stats aren't hidden, players can easily see that they utterly suck and know not to use them.
Giving them reach+cleave is a cool idea, and wouldn't really change anything in D1-4 except for Su and Wz starts. But I'd like to see exactly how the squares would work out.
Re: Remove scythes
Posted:
Wednesday, 18th May 2016, 17:29by crate
And now that weapon stats aren't hidden, players can easily see that they utterly suck and know not to use them.
This is kind of not really true, mainly since "base damage" doesn't make much sense since it's not actually damage. If enchantment and base damage worked the same way (they should), perhaps this would be a reasonable argument.