The Tavern

They keep activating on weak enemies that I have to go and chase again or sometimes end up in a bad situation with them coming up behind me. So I have a suggestion to make them both more useful and less annoying.

Amulets of Dismissal now only activate when enemies deal significant damage in a single turn. Something around... 10-20% of your health? In return they should activate at a higher rate than 10%. Maybe around 25%. If it deals enough to trigger "Ouch! That really hurt." then it always activates.

You realize that would make them incredibly good, as opposed to just good?

I wouldn't call it "just good", I wouldn't even call it "good"
Personally I find the item annoying enough that I drop it upon ID, just like loudness or inaccuracy.

Amulet of dismissal is probably overpowered, it's just that it's narrow. If you don't want to kill things (there are cases where this is true) then it is by far the best non-artefact amulet in the game, except maybe for faith with some gods.

Dismissal is pretty good actually, all you have to do is remove it when you want to prevent the stuff you are killing from teleporting away and put it back aftewards. Yay for amulet swapping.

If you have ever had situations where you thought "Hey, if this dude stays within melee distance of me much longer, I will die", you should understand why Dismissal is good.

Hah, this thread tells me I need to hang onto my dismissal amulets instead of throwing them away. There are certainly times I wish the guy beating up on me would just teleport away...

My problem with it is that it isn't useful as a way it of fights i dont want to be in, because it has a very small chance per hit of doing so, and it is more likely that i will die before it does anything, and if it isn't likely that i will die in the time frame that i would have to wait for it to work, then i probably don't want the critter to teleport away.

I suppose in some of those circumstances it functions like a slow and inconsistent, but reusable, teleport scroll, thereby saving my real scrolls for later. But i dont think i have ever had a game where running out of teleport scrolls (and wand charges) was what killed me.

The only situation in which that isnt true is when i prefer to do my damage at range, in which case it is always a good thing to use, and it doesn't matter if the critter is threatening or not.

Maybe teleport scrolls just need to be rarer.

Tied with regeneration for my favorite amulet in hell.

I'd actually be a lot happier with it if Amulet of Dismissal was removed and *Dismiss was instead added as an armour ego.

I'd be a lot happier if dismissal didn't exist in any form, since its entire role is to annoy you in trivial fights and randomly save you from nontrivial ones, neither of which are good.

I'm just going from the assumption that Dismissal isn't being dismissed

Dismissal should just be evocable disjunction with some kind of downside... A random% chance of moving enemies away from me... Not consistent, not cotrollble, not fun. Its decently strong but too random and non skillful for a game like dcss.

Too random for DCSS? What version of this game have you been playing?

dowan wrote:Too random for DCSS? What version of this game have you been playing?

The version where every other amulet has a consistent or evocable effect. Rather than one based on a continual low% die roll you have no control over.

I guess that would be one of the versions between dismissal being created and warding no longer existing. But my point is that DCSS is a very random game as is, with damage rolls being 1-x damage, with very random and swingy combat, with lots of spells and attack effects having % chances to inflict some status or another, with a translocations spell that has a % chance to teleport enemies who attack you away (Hey does that sound familiar?

DCSS is really random. You're right that amulets usually aren't so random, but that's a lot different than saying something is too random for DCSS.

dynast wrote:Dismissal is pretty good actually, all you have to do is remove it when you want to prevent the stuff you are killing from teleporting away and put it back aftewards. Yay for amulet swapping.

infinitevox wrote:I'd actually be a lot happier with it if Amulet of Dismissal was removed and *Dismiss was instead added as an armour ego.

As annoying as amulet swapping is, having dismissal be an armour ego would be so much worse. You'd have to hide and swap the armour before fighting enemies w/ potentially good weapons/armour, or else you'd always have to reexplore the level.

Ultimately, dismissal is powerful but annoying to use. I would be happy if it were removed.

dowan wrote:I guess that would be one of the versions between dismissal being created and warding no longer existing. But my point is that DCSS is a very random game as is, with damage rolls being 1-x damage, with very random and swingy combat, with lots of spells and attack effects having % chances to inflict some status or another, with a translocations spell that has a % chance to teleport enemies who attack you away (Hey does that sound familiar?

DCSS is really random. You're right that amulets usually aren't so random, but that's a lot different than saying something is too random for DCSS.

Actually damage rolls are more like 1-x times 1-y times 1-z, where y and z are the multipliers from fighting and weapon skill.

lethediver wrote:
dowan wrote:Too random for DCSS? What version of this game have you been playing?

The version where every other amulet has a consistent or evocable effect. Rather than one based on a continual low% die roll you have no control over.

Technically, Amulet of Reflection does not match that description, and is in some ways very similar to Amulet of Dismissal, although its effect is much more minor and not something you might rely on like dismissal.

Overall, Duvessa's description seems pretty spot-on to me. Randomness and unreliability against powerful monsters can be debated, but "it sometimes makes popcorn a lot more annoying to kill" strikes me as an extremely poorly-designed drawback.

Quazifuji wrote:
lethediver wrote:
dowan wrote:Too random for DCSS? What version of this game have you been playing?

The version where every other amulet has a consistent or evocable effect. Rather than one based on a continual low% die roll you have no control over.

Technically, Amulet of Reflection does not match that description, and is in some ways very similar to Amulet of Dismissal, although its effect is much more minor and not something you might rely on like dismissal.

Overall, Duvessa's description seems pretty spot-on to me. Randomness and unreliability against powerful monsters can be debated, but "it sometimes makes popcorn a lot more annoying to kill" strikes me as an extremely poorly-designed drawback.

That's my point. It shouldn't activate when you're not in danger. It's still completely random but only works on enemies that you'd actually want to be away from you.

Amulet of <I wish it were health or mana regen instead>

What if dismissal scaled with Evo and did a tiny amount of damage on success at high evo, so it serves as a popcorn grinder, but requires investment to be useful on later enemies.

All it really needs is a name change to "Amulet of Pretty Good Protection from Hydras."

dowan wrote:I guess that would be one of the versions between dismissal being created and warding no longer existing. But my point is that DCSS is a very random game as is, with damage rolls being 1-x damage, with very random and swingy combat.

you really gotta play some ToME4 if you want to expierence swingy combat and consisent off-screen one-shot deaths. dcss is currently one of least swingy and most fair rougelikes

I agree with you, but that doesn't mean there's not room for improvement.

kroki wrote:
dowan wrote:I guess that would be one of the versions between dismissal being created and warding no longer existing. But my point is that DCSS is a very random game as is, with damage rolls being 1-x damage, with very random and swingy combat.

you really gotta play some ToME4 if you want to expierence swingy combat and consisent off-screen one-shot deaths. dcss is currently one of least swingy and most fair rougelikes

DCSS is less likely to oneshot you with some kind of archmage-oozemancer dual class turboorc or a gnome with a wand of death on D:2 but the combat is definitely really random and swingy. For example, an ogre can miss 5 times in a row or it can hit once for 2/3rds of your max HP, and it's totally down to RNG which happens. (And this can encourage, for example, fighting the ogre until it actually gets a hit in and then just pillardancing to regen and reset the fight and try again.)

The only other roguelike I can think of where combat is so randomly "either everything is a complete breeze or you lose half your maxhp in one turn but you can't tell which in advance" is Angband and variants when you're crossing fingers for some unique to cast "cause light wounds" or "blind" instead of using its 1600 damage fire breath.

(I have a vague suspicion that this was already suggested somewhere but) it could be interesting if the amulet always triggered on any target that spends X amount of time within radius Y of the player. That would make it less random and give the player some control over when it triggers. It would also incentivize the player to stay close to dangerous enemies longer in order to dismiss them.

(OTOH I personally would not be unhappy if this amulet were simply removed.)

phloomp--I feel as though this would lead to players counting how many turns they had been in combat w/ enemies, and removing the amulet if they are clearly winning combat prior to the time it would activate (because it is 'optimal' to wear it at all other times, seeing as combat is swingy). You could, I suppose, place a cost on removal of the amulet but I don't think that would make the dismissal's effect any less annoying.

I would likewise be happy if dismissal were removed--I don't think it is 'interesting' enough to be worth saving, and the design space of 'enemies periodically teleport around' is already occupied better by distortion weapons anyways.

I've had the chance to try it out recently, on a fairly weak character using slings, and it worked OK. I would trade it for regen in a heartbeat, but not every amulet has to be equally good.

amaril wrote:the design space of 'enemies periodically teleport around' is already occupied better by distortion weapons anyways.

The times where this amulet is strong are the times when you aren't fighting enemies.

My biggest issue with dismissal is that it encourages amulet swapping, while I swear the original justification for amulet overhaul was to discourage amulet swapping.

Reptisaurus wrote:All it really needs is a name change to "Amulet of Pretty Good Protection from Hydras."

I actually have one in my OpTm game right now, and I've just spotted a hydra I don't want to fight. You've given me an idea that I'll remember if it does happen to spot me (its just wandering at the moment)

how about making it evocable at an HP/MP cost and taking time, and making it dismiss only the next hit?

E.g evoke it for 10hp cost. Takes 2 turns to "charge". The next monster to hit you after the charge teleports. And it makes a loud noise?

This would stop it being an instant win GTFO a fight button, but provide enough interesting choice and utility to make it worth it. If you do something stupid and get swamped, your not going to get saved. IF you let a basilisk and a hydra get next to you, your not going to get saved. But it can be used in those situations where you have an enemy chasing you - but its usage comes at a cost (2 free attacks of said monster, and attracting attention)

delarado wrote:how about making it evocable at an HP/MP cost and taking time, and making it dismiss only the next hit?

E.g evoke it for 10hp cost. Takes 2 turns to "charge". The next monster to hit you after the charge teleports. And it makes a loud noise?

This would stop it being an instant win GTFO a fight button, but provide enough interesting choice and utility to make it worth it. If you do something stupid and get swamped, your not going to get saved. IF you let a basilisk and a hydra get next to you, your not going to get saved. But it can be used in those situations where you have an enemy chasing you - but its usage comes at a cost (2 free attacks of said monster, and attracting attention)

If that was unesistable it would be too powerful (just evoke the turn a hydra comes into LOS) and if it was resistable the weird delay before re-attempting would make it too annoying.

Seriously, make "dismissal's effect toggleable.

And if it's too powerful, you can make it drain mp on dismissal, like spirit shield.

What if dismissal flickered the monster instead of teleporting it. "your amu vibrates and foo temporarily stops existing for # turns"

Then you know where it is (right where you left it), you know it's coming back, and you can try to get gone, or wait a bit to kill it.

pumpyscump wrote:What if dismissal flickered the monster instead of teleporting it. "your amu vibrates and foo temporarily stops existing for # turns"

Then you know where it is (right where you left it), you know it's coming back, and you can try to get gone, or wait a bit to kill it.

Like some kind of... amulet of stasis? :mrgreen:

I like this idea though.

I think replacing the instant tele with blink away could be another solution. But then it still occupies a weird design space - if the effect triggers too often, then every enemy can be tediously taken advantage of (like what you can do to phantoms). If it doesn't trigger often enough, then it's probably not worth ever using over "regen/etc.

The Tavern

Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

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Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful

Re: Amulets of Dismissal are more annoying than helpful