FR: fix two minor annoyances with web traps

[andreas]

Two things about webs.

1) Changing the description to mention ''web sense''

Apparently (I was recently told, and the wiki and learndb confirm) some monsters have a ''web sense,'' which means they detect it when the player steps into a web and go to the web. But there is indication of this neither in the x-v description for the web feature nor under the descriptions of the monsters that have this flag, according to the wiki; if this is described elsewhere in game, I don't know about it.

This is objectionably spoilery. This is in part because it is sometimes desirable to destroy webs, say, when they are choking a natural escape path or a good spot to lure enemies back to. For example: I have had it be that Spider:4 had long hallways, choked with webs, from the stairs to the rune vault, and it seemed reasonable to clear the path before opening the vault. But whether this is a good idea is different if stepping into the web to destroy it will alert nearby enemies: what I just described may still be a good idea, but it's a worse idea to step around a corner to see a few sleeping spiders, then step back around the corner to clear a path behind you (you don't want to still be stuck when something comes investigating).

Right now the description for webs reads

A web

A spider's web. The spider who left it must have been huge, as it seems to be made for trapping [the character's genus] rather than flies.

I would like to add to the end of this

Beware! Nearby spiders will sense the web's strands vibrating if you get caught in it.

(I think it would not be necessary to add anything to the monster descriptions, if this is added to the trap description.)

(If this seems unobjectionable, I will just add such a submission through Mantis myself.)

2) Removing the awkwardness of destroying webs---make it so escaping always destroys the web

More substantially: as far as I know, if you want to tear a web to open up an escape path or whatever, there's no alternative to stepping into it and then trying to step out again. You may have to struggle to leave the web for several turns, even if nothing is around (this is fine, I guess). What annoys me is that there is a chance to just exit the web without destroying it---''you disentangle yourself.'' But it's strange flavorwise that your character could accidentally pick their way out, when you are trying to have them break the web; and more importantly, it's frustrating and pointless to repeatedly step in and out of webs until you successfully destroy them on the way out instead of merely disentangle yourself. It would be better if you just had to mash 'j' or whatever until you broke the web, instead of have to dance back and forth in and out of the web.

I realize this is a bit of fiddly detail, but it seems like an irritation that comes up for me each time I get Spider; perhaps I am not the only one.

(Theoretically this problem is not unique to Spider, but appears with any traps that are depletable by being triggered several times, e.g., needle traps. But practically, Spider seems to be the main place where many such traps predictably often block tactically useful terrain. Since there are only two traps blocking the Zot lungs, and since the interesting traps to get by that point are not really the depletable ones anyway, the same issue doesn't really appear there.)

I have two ideas for how to deal with this.

First: the simpler idea, which I favor, is to make it so that the web always tears when the player escapes. If this is done, then no more dancing: you just thrash against the web until it breaks and you're out.

To attempt to meet some objections before they are lodged: it is sometimes an interesting tactic to try to catch monsters in traps. You may think this change makes that harder to do, since if you first notice a trap by stumbling into it, you cannot use it for this purpose. (Note that this is already the case with other traps that trigger at most once, like temporary teleport traps and shafts.) But, since most enemies in Spider can't be caught in webs, the primary place webs appear doesn't encourage this strategy, anyway. It may be thought that webs should simply persist and never be torn: it is sometimes interesting (well, maybe) that traps persist so that they permanently block an access point. But this would make Spider much more annoying, in my opinion, unless the quantity and placement of webs were changed.

I am not sure much would be lost if webs always tore on escape, and a bit of tedium would be erased for me and, if there are any, other people who deliberately tear webs.

Second, less ideally from my perspective, but a less drastic change: it would be nice if there were at least a way to attempt only to destroy the web only when leaving from being trapped, perhaps with reduced chance to successfully exit. Maybe, for example, ctrl+direction tries to tear the web only, while direction by itself does what it normally does. I don't know where to indicate this to the player (in the description screen for the web?). (To ward off misunderstanding: the proposal is not to make this depend on a skill that has to be trained!)

I like the first idea much better: it is less complicated, does not introduce a new mechanic, and I suspect is easier to code. But I would prefer the second idea to the status quo.

[Hurkyl]

Historical note: there used to be a 'disarm trap' feature that could be used when standing beside a trap by doing ctrl-direction, and this could be used on webs. It had a chance to fail, of course, which in turn had a chance of moving you onto the trap and triggering it.

[andreas]

Right---the problem is that right now you can still ''disarm'' web traps, it's just super annoying to do it.

[dpeg]

Very good points! I can't see anyone objecting to the web sense sentence in the trap description.

Perhaps we're better off with indestructible webs? That removes the temptation to destroy them, and you have to deal with it.

[dowan]

Well, although as the OP pointed out most enemies in spider are immune to getting webbed, not all are. If they become permanent doesn't it add undesired gameplay, where the player attempts to lure enemies into the web?

Admittedly, it's a pretty edge case, but in the case of a dangerous unique spawning in spider one could just lure them into web traps to make the fight much easier. I know I've killed kirke that way a few times, but at least now kirke usually breaks the web when she escapes the first time.

Of course, even destructible webs have this problem, just to a lesser extent, because the player breaks many of them upon discovering them, but not all.

I do agree they should either always break or be unbreakable, the current situation encourages dancing in and out of webs to break them, which can be annoying, but optimal in some situations.

[TeshiAlair]

Yeah optimal play being "break every web when you see it without enemies around" is freaking hideous

[amaril]

Changing the description to mention ''web sense''

is to make it so that the web always tears when the player escapes.

Both of these ideas are preferable to the status quo. But it would be better if webs didn't appear as traps or terrain at all. Jumping Spiders can keep their ability.

Perhaps we're better off with indestructible webs? That removes the temptation to destroy them, and you have to deal with it.

The problem is that once you know a web is there, it no longer contributes to gameplay in any meaningful way. The decision of 'walk onto a square containing a web' vs 'walk onto a square without a web' has an obvious answer. Maybe sometimes they limit the player's ability to retreat? Overall though they just punish accidental button presses.

[dpeg]

The problem is that once you know a web is there, it no longer contributes to gameplay in any meaningful way. The decision of 'walk onto a square containing a web' vs 'walk onto a square without a web' has an obvious answer.

The answer is obvious, but webbed squares would still have a meaning: they make your path longer, whereas spiders can take the shortcut, or in worse circumstances, they may be unavoidable.

Not saying this is the only solution or anything, but I wanted to point out that permawebs would also address andreas' point.

[amaril]

Yeah, that's fair. Permawebs would also be preferable to semi-breakable ones.

Spiders don't usually need much help surrounding a fleeing player because of speed/jumping, but it is true that removing webs would be a slight player buff.

[andreas]

Yes, probably I was over-hasty in putting aside the option of making web traps never tear. Doing this entirely disincentivizes ''disarming'' web traps, which is likely for the best. Perhaps I was influenced by its making my life a little bit harder as a player .

I am definitely an amateur when it comes to coding, but I think this is a pretty simple change. I will try to get a working patch submitted to Mantis over the next week or so.

Thanks for the feedback!

[ion_frigate]

The problem is that once you know a web is there, it no longer contributes to gameplay in any meaningful way. The decision of 'walk onto a square containing a web' vs 'walk onto a square without a web' has an obvious answer.

The answer is obvious, but webbed squares would still have a meaning: they make your path longer, whereas spiders can take the shortcut, or in worse circumstances, they may be unavoidable.

Not saying this is the only solution or anything, but I wanted to point out that permawebs would also address andreas' point.

Permawebs are then like a worse version of shallow water in Swamp: terrain that's bad for you, good for monsters. Worse because, in addition to punishing typos, they also impose an interface burden (escaping the web).

Perhaps known (perma)webs could be treated like shallow water: your actions are slowed as you avoid the web, but you don't get entangled. It'd be easy enough to convey this to the player ("You slowly walk around the web"/"Your [attack/spell] is slowed as you avoid the web here.")

[andreas]

in addition to punishing typos, [webs] also impose an interface burden (escaping the web).

I agree; most of the time I step into a web, it's by typo. Other traps (e.g. net traps and Zot traps; I don't know why some and not others) ask you to confirm before you step into them, if you know they are there.

Is this too annoying to do for the common web trap, too? If webs become permawebs, we just removed a big (though not the only) motivation to purposely step into one.

(More dramatic changes that have been mentioned, like changing webs to act like shallow water or just removing them, might be appropriate. But I suspect more incremental changes are more likely to actually happen in the short term.)