The Tavern

... Or cut themselves (dealing perhaps a couple of points) in order to allow faster reduction of blood levels.

Blood levels and the options they present are the most interesting thing about Vamps, but waiting around/spamming higher level spells/repeatedly using Bat Form is tedious (and you can't Bat Form if you've got too much blood, and the spell solution becomes less effective if you level Spellcasting, which sucks).

I'm thinking the vomit option should take a couple of turns (30 auts?) to execute, so as to not completely trivialize the process and allow it in-combat to shuffle resistances at low/no cost. Alternately, implementing an option where the Vamp cuts itself and bleeds out satiation should take just one turn, but at the cost of HP. Either option should (IMO) drop roughly one satiation level and produce a potion of blood ("You manage to salvage some of the vital fluid for later."). Ofc, the satiation lost should be much more than a potion of blood at all levels (pretty sure this is already the case).

Does this mean Octopodes can shoot their ink, too? Felids can cough up/shoot furballs now, to make up for the inability to hold projectiles? Mummies can construct origami shuriken from their bandages, huh?

What about all the other humanoids? Imo if there's a simian race coming into development, they should be able to fling their poo at XL7.

Tressol wrote:... Or cut themselves (dealing perhaps a couple of points) in order to allow faster reduction of blood levels.

Blood levels and the options they present are the most interesting thing about Vamps, but waiting around/spamming higher level spells/repeatedly using Bat Form is tedious (and you can't Bat Form if you've got too much blood, and the spell solution becomes less effective if you level Spellcasting, which sucks).

I'm thinking the vomit option should take a couple of turns (30 auts?) to execute, so as to not completely trivialize the process and allow it in-combat to shuffle resistances at low/no cost. Alternately, implementing an option where the Vamp cuts itself and bleeds out satiation should take just one turn, but at the cost of HP. Either option should (IMO) drop roughly one satiation level and produce a potion of blood ("You manage to salvage some of the vital fluid for later."). Ofc, the satiation lost should be much more than a potion of blood at all levels (pretty sure this is already the case).

(A) Yuck.

(B) Good call actually.

DIngbat wrote:Does this mean Octopodes can shoot their ink, too? Felids can cough up/shoot furballs now, to make up for the inability to hold projectiles? Mummies can construct origami shuriken from their bandages, huh?

What about all the other humanoids? Imo if there's a simian race coming into development, they should be able to fling their poo at XL7.

Not positive that this post was a joke - while I would be happy for Octopodes to get ink, this is totally different. I'm not proposing any new sort of attack, this is about reducing tedium (and turncount, I suppose) related to manipulating Vampire satiation levels.

DIngbat wrote:Does this mean Octopodes can shoot their ink, too? Felids can cough up/shoot furballs now, to make up for the inability to hold projectiles?

A man can only dream.

FR: every race gets a 500nutrition-cost acid spit

I dont know why everyone is writing stupid jokes, but I wouldnt mind being able to lower my satiaion as a Vp at a cost

This sounds useful.

The last time I played a Vp, the tedium of managing satiation killed it.

Being able to regenerate health slowly while bloodless would also be nice. Taking damage as a bloodless vampire, then having some food, then waiting to become bloodless again is annoying. I'd rather be able to hit 5.

Alternately, we could eliminate the relationship between Vp aliveness and hunger altogether and just make them into a species focused on transforming between a few forms or whatever.

archaeo wrote:Alternately, we could eliminate the relationship between Vp aliveness and hunger altogether and just make them into a species focused on transforming between a few forms or whatever.

Yes, yes - eliminate food, etc.

Vampires have the most interesting interaction with "food" of all species in the game - surely you aren't suggesting that Vamps just not have a food clock (and change forms in, say, 30 Auts) like mummies while, say, humans have normal food requirements. I find it equally improbable that you're suggesting that Vampires eat normal food, and saying that they can *only* get satiation from blood while being able to starve would be saying that vampires basically can't do extended.

This would, however, be the way to make Vampires work if/when food is removed, sure.

Tressol wrote:Not positive that this post was a joke - this is about reducing tedium (and turncount, I suppose) related to manipulating Vampire satiation levels.

Your idea is neat; I'm just busting your chops a lil bit. Personally I believe that vomiting all over the dungeon floor would be a waste -- cutting one's blood into an empty vial for later satiation would be better from a strategic perspective, no? Or maybe just implement both: vomiting for short-term benefit, cutting for long-term stratagem. Vamps would get either as special abilities at different XLs, or something.

Tressol wrote:while I would be happy for Octopodes to get ink, this is totally different. I'm not proposing any new sort of attack

Although Octopode inking could also work as a defensive utility -- blinding dudes, swiftly jettisoning away from monsters whilst swimming, etc.

vible wrote:I dont know why everyone is writing stupid jokes

same reason why 'everyone' is griping about them: 'cause it's the internet.
calm down buddy.

DIngbat wrote:Does this mean Octopodes can shoot their ink, too? Felids can cough up/shoot furballs now, to make up for the inability to hold projectiles? Mummies can construct origami shuriken from their bandages, huh?

What about all the other humanoids? Imo if there's a simian race coming into development, they should be able to fling their poo at XL7.

SIMIAN RACE COMING INTO DEVELOPMENT, YOU SAY?

Looks like the monkeys have effectively infiltrated the dungeon ... >;)

No. Vampires being able to control their blood level would be an insane buff. It would promote tedium, not reduce it.

Every fight you'd bottle blood, use enough to regen, then vomit it up. There's very little reason to not stay bloodless in many builds.

The issue is that you can still essentially do that, it just takes repeated bat form, spamming spells or mashing ctrl-5 a bunch...

additional FR: Remove potions of blood. Allow bloodless vampire to regen.

why not just remove vampires? Is the only appealing unique part of the race batform?

batform, stealth+hex apts, and resistances (pois, ice, neg, torm), also heal on stab.

lesser perks: doesn't care about spell hunger, can get high regen by drinking a lot of blood

yesno wrote:batform, stealth+hex apts, and resistances (pois, ice, neg, torm), also heal on stab.

lesser perks: doesn't care about spell hunger, can get high regen by drinking a lot of blood

They're like a bad spriggan crossed with a ghoul and an additional "interesting" hunger mechanic.

Remove vampires if you must but plz no "regen while bloodless" vampires. Would make early late game absurdly easy.

tabstorm wrote:
yesno wrote:batform, stealth+hex apts, and resistances (pois, ice, neg, torm), also heal on stab.

lesser perks: doesn't care about spell hunger, can get high regen by drinking a lot of blood

They're like a bad spriggan crossed with a ghoul and an additional "interesting" hunger mechanic.

yeah it's interesting how much better vp starts to look if you just remove sp

fr: remove spriggans

lethediver wrote:Remove vampires if you must but plz no "regen while bloodless" vampires. Would make early late game absurdly easy.

what is "early late game" exactly (third rune? depths + zot:1?) and why would bloodless healing trivialize it...?

lethediver wrote:Remove vampires if you must but plz no "regen while bloodless" vampires. Would make early late game absurdly easy.

How would it be appreciably different from a ghoul

tabstorm wrote:
lethediver wrote:Remove vampires if you must but plz no "regen while bloodless" vampires. Would make early late game absurdly easy.

How would it be appreciably different from a ghoul

better stealth!

ok but seriously remove spriggans imo

Just remove the food clock for VP actually for everyone... and let them change between "hunger states" at will.

WingedEspeon wrote: let them change between "hunger states" at will.

The problem with this is that being bloodless is almost always preferable to being alive, except that bloodless vampires don't regen health. The role the food mechanic serves is that it makes it difficult to regen at will, and this offsets the benefits of bloodlessness. If you can switch states at will there is no drawback to being bloodless all the time.

there is already no real drawback to being bloodless all the time, because you just drink 1 or 2 bloods and hit 5.

FR: Bloodless vampires cannot drink potions (except Blood). Weakened effects/chance to fail for near bloodless. Heightened effects at "alive," where applicable (increaced healing or duration, for example).

Because playing like a mummy should preclude potion use, and bloodless vampire is generally much better than mummy, anyway. Also, to make Vamp hunger states less of a no-brainer once the character is off the ground.

hmm, make vp worse, to be more like mummy, or better, to be more like spriggan? what a conundrum

yesno wrote:ok but seriously remove spriggans imo

I'm tempted to agree but would hate to see the various enemy Spriggans go... But I think Wieglaf (sp?) is still a Mountain Dwarf (the last of his kind...) so whatever.

amaril wrote:
WingedEspeon wrote: let them change between "hunger states" at will.

The problem with this is that being bloodless is almost always preferable to being alive, except that bloodless vampires don't regen health. The role the food mechanic serves is that it makes it difficult to regen at will, and this offsets the benefits of bloodlessness. If you can switch states at will there is no drawback to being bloodless all the time.

Ok, add mild draining every time you switch hunger state, so you can't just be bloodless all the time. Or make the draining scale with how maney hunger levels you jumped, so going from bloodless to alive would give the most draining, etc. I prefere to keep my vampires at alive anyway because you get enough regen that it is actualy noticeble within a single fight.

you would just stay at very thirsty/near bloodless all the time in that case, unless your vp is a powerhouse that can benefit from regen and doesn't need batform, in which case you would stay alive all the time

also none of this would make sense unless food were eliminated from crawl, because if vp can change state at will, what purpose does blood serve?

Even if food won't be removed (and I'm not holding my breath), it'd be a good idea to remove blood and change how Vp works. I don't know what that'd look like, but I imagine maybe two or three states, limited with an xp timer; you could flavor this as the Vp taking a bite out of the enemies it kills, which is basically how it should work for Gh too.

If vampires are going to exist as a player species they should just have a different gimmick. The hunger state thing is awkward, overcomplicated, and doesn't provide interesting gameplay. The game needs an entire screen just to partially tell you what the different hunger states do!

What if they just had batform and ONE passive gimmick like the following:
- heal for 10% (or some other portion) of all damage dealt by any means
- OR "dual holiness" (I detest the concept but it's what the current incarnation of Vp basically tries to do): always has torment, poison, rotting, and negative energy immunity, can always berserk/mutate/transmute/borg's/ddoor, and is always vulnerable to holy damage and dispel undead. Perhaps this would belong better on ghouls.
- OR something else, idk crawl has too many races

i think vp are ok the way they are but since currently the best way to play them afaict is to stay near bloodless almost always, the easiest change would be make vp exist as species that is identical to current near bloodless vp (resistances, base stealth, and slow regen), plus torment resistance (since this is a major vp perk that you would lose otherwise). they already heal on stab & on bite, so you can just keep that, tweak it a bit if necessary. conceptually it seems like vp should be able to berserk and use transmutations despite being undead, i don't know if that presents a balance issue though.

or more like archaeo suggests, instead of gaining berserk/transformations they could have an xp-gated powerup ability (call it DARK METAMORPHOSIS obviously https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19hBerqA97c ) for temporary +regen / might / haste / no batform / -stlth ... just giving them berserk/transmutations seems better though i think, despite some kind of uh, holiness... overlap... problem. i am not a crawl theologian so i don't know about that.

So, if food isn't removed, and blood is, do we want Vamps eating bread rations? Or do they become carnivorous? Or, do they just blow mummies away completely by having no food clock while other (non-undead) species still have to eat?

they continue to be way better than mummies i guess

Tressol wrote:Or, do they just blow mummies away completely by having no food clock while other (non-undead) species still have to eat?

I mean, that's what ghouls do...

Can't Ghouls starve? Anyway, the rot could certainly get awful. Yeah, removing food probably means removing Ghouls altogether, doesn't it?

Ghouls cannot starve and suffer no ill effects from the "Starving" status.

yesno wrote:i think vp are ok the way they are but since currently the best way to play them afaict is to stay near bloodless almost always,

Every person I have ever asked about Vp has told me to stay as full on blood as possible always so I get high regen.

then you can't batform and can't heal on bite/stab. if you don't need to fly away and can't stab you might as well get regen i guess.

The Tavern

FR: Let Vampires vomit blood.

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