Octopodes

[galehar]

The bigger problem with Oc of Chei is how easy it is to remove the hat and regain full speed in a couple of turns. The time to remove a piece of armour should probably be affected by the ponderous effect.

The ring solution is to let players choose how remove curse scrolls are corrupted.

I don't think this will ever happen. It's also much easier to get full bound body. And after you've cursed 5 of your 9 jewellery slots, you get to keep 4 open which is a lot of flexibility. The rarity of the scrolls is the only balance there.

[ryzol]

Note that the bonus from the hat comes at once at ***** piety, and none before. As an Oc of Chei, you'd face a choice among sitting at ponderous until *****, slower piety gain by leaving the hat off, or the interface inconvenience of only putting the hat on before kills.

I'm not very knowledged on melee formulae, but are all the combat bonuses you get from Chei stat boosts greater than, say, those from Okawaru's Heroism + Finesse? Even if so, is the difference great enough to justify losing many of the game's most crucial escape options on an already fragile character? I don't think Chei would be as much of a no-brainer for Octopodes (or any other build) as you claim.

??? You get the bonuses starting at *. The bonuses increase with each additional *.

I have no idea how it compares to heroism + fitnesse. However, Chei boosts intelligence and provides good resistances. Good resistances on a character that has 8 rings could have balance issues. For a hybrid or spell caster character Chei is almost certainly better than Oka. The only limiting factor with Octopodes and Chei is the slower piety gain because you can only have 1 ponderous item.

[nicolae]

Water perks are fine, they should just be different from Merfolk. Since Mf was the first aquatic species, they got quite a packed, that's true. Something thematic that'd work well for Oc are constriction (not just in water) and ink (perhaps only in water).

Blurry vision when out of water, because their eyes are best adapted for an aquatic life. (Although it's not like the species needs more of a nerf.) To carry the vision theme further, maybe their eyes are supernaturally well-attuned to the pressures and optical properties of deep water, and gain sInv when they're sitting in the briny deep.

[dpeg]

I don't perceive Oc+Chei as a huge problem. If we get truckloads of OcGl^C wins, we'll react, of course. Cheibriados could develop an allergy to water or something.

[Kate]

The bonus gradually increases with your piety, actually, instead of suddenly kicking in at high piety. (And I'd be very surprised if a god as restrictive as Chei turns out to be brokenly good for octopodes).

[ryzol]

After having played my GlOp of Chei more I agree that it is not a broken combination. Piety gain is slow and slouch is much weaker given your mildly slow speed, and the slower piety gain. If I wear ponderous gear and cast slow on myself will I gain piety faster than if I am only wearing ponderous gear? If I gain piety faster when I am slowed is this working as intended? For most Chei worshipers this is irrelevant. For an Op doubling your slowness would help piety gain and slouch power a lot.

The other concern between Op of Chei is starting equipment. Any background that does not start with a hat cannot worship Chei until much past the temple barring early game luck.

[bobross419]

I don't know... I gave this a try on a lucky Op that found a WizHat before temple. By D:6 he had almost fully piety with killer stats.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.10-a0-487-g298eb13 character file.

5438 TentaclePorn the Covert (level 10, -8/66 HPs)
             Began as an Octopode Monk on Sept 3, 2011.
             Was the Champion of Cheibriados.
             Mangled by a yak (15 damage)
             ... on Level 11 of the Dungeon on Sept 4, 2011.
             The game lasted 00:51:52 (15312 turns).

TentaclePorn the Covert (Octopode Monk)            Turns: 15312, Time: 00:51:52

HP  -8/66        AC  2     Str 27      XL: 10   Next: 49%
MP  10/14        EV 21     Int 27      God: Cheibriados [******]
Gold 557         SH  0     Dex 33      Spells:  1 memorised, 11 levels left

Res.Fire  : + + .   See Invis. : .      - Unarmed
Res.Cold  : + . .   Warding    : . .  (no shield)
Life Prot.: + . .   Conserve   : .    k - +1 wizard hat of Leisure {Slow}
Res.Acid. : . . .   Res.Corr.  : .    (no amulet)
Res.Poison: .       Clarity    : .    d - cursed ring of sustain abilities
Res.Elec. : .       Spirit.Shd : .    D - ring of invisibility
Sust.Abil.: + .     Stasis     : .    F - ring of protection from fire
Res.Mut.  : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .    (no ring)
Res.Rott. : .       Levitation : .    (no ring)
Saprovore : . . .   Ctrl.Flight: .    (no ring)
                                      (no ring)
                                      (no ring)

@: very slightly contaminated, very slow, somewhat resistant to hostile
enchantments, extraordinarily stealthy
A: almost no armour, amphibious, beak, berserk 1, camouflage 1, tentacles 3, AC
+1, Str +1, Int -1, Dex +1
a: Make Ponderous, Bend Time, Slouch, Step From Time, Renounce Religion, Evoke
Invisibility


You were on level 11 of the Dungeon.
You worshipped Cheibriados.
Cheibriados was exalted by your worship.
You were hungry.

You visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and saw 12 of its levels.
You visited 1 portal chamber: ossuary.

You collected 557 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 l - a cursed +0,+1 orcish flail
Missiles
 e - 4 +3 javelins of returning (quivered)
Armour
 k - the cursed +1 wizard hat of Leisure (worn) {Slow}
   (You found it on level 2 of the Dungeon)   
   
   
   It slows your movement.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
Magical devices
 u - a wand of random effects (9)
Comestibles
 m - 4 meat rations
 q - 2 chokos
 t - an orange
 w - 2 bread rations
 x - a honeycomb
 z - 5 rotting chunks of wyvern flesh
 C - an apple
 G - a rotting chunk of yak flesh
Scrolls
 b - 3 scrolls of detect curse
 f - 6 scrolls of identify
 h - a scroll of amnesia
 i - 6 scrolls of remove curse
 n - a scroll of curse armour {unknown}
 o - a scroll of enchant armour {unknown}
 r - 2 scrolls of fear
 v - 2 scrolls of teleportation
 y - a scroll of random uselessness {unknown}
 A - 3 scrolls of recharging {unknown}
 B - a scroll of immolation {unknown}
 E - a scroll of fog {unknown}
 H - a scroll of enchant weapon III {unknown}
 I - a scroll of blinking {unknown}
Jewellery
 d - a cursed ring of sustain abilities (on tentacle)
 j - an uncursed amulet of rage
 D - a ring of invisibility (on tentacle)
 F - a ring of protection from fire (on tentacle)
Potions
 c - 2 potions of healing
 p - 2 potions of levitation
 s - 3 potions of restore abilities
Books
 a - a book of Death   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Corpse Rot                         Necromancy                   2
   Sublimation of Blood               Necromancy                   2
   Agony                              Necromancy                   5
   Excruciating Wounds                Charms/Necromancy            5
   Bolt of Draining                   Conjuration/Necromancy       6
 g - a book of Spatial Translocations   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Apportation                        Translocation                1
   Portal Projectile                  Translocation                2
   *Blink                             Translocation                2
   Shroud of Golubria                 Charms/Translocation         2
   Teleport Other                     Translocation                3
   Passage of Golubria                Translocation                4
   Control Teleport                   Charms/Translocation         4


   Skills:
 + Level 7 Fighting
 - Level 4 Throwing
 * Level 7 Dodging
 + Level 9 Stealth
 - Level 1 Stabbing
 - Level 1 Traps & Doors
 * Level 8 Unarmed Combat
 + Level 2 Spellcasting
 + Level 1 Translocations
 - Level 1 Invocations
 - Level 1 Evocations


You had 11 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Success   Level  Hunger
a - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          Very Good   2    Choko


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (11/27)            Temple (1/1) D:4             Orc (0/4) D:6
  Lair: D:8-13        Hive: D:11-16     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
The Shining One
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin

Shops:
D:6: (  D:10: *

Portals:
Ziggurat: D:7 (3190 gp)


                    Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You cannot wear most types of armour.
You can wear up to eight rings at the same time.
You are amphibious.
You have a beak for a mouth.
Your rubbery body absorbs attacks (AC +1).
Your skin changes color to match your surroundings (Stlth).
You have a mass of large tentacles instead of arms.
You are agile (Dex +1).
You tend to lose your temper in combat.
You are dopey (Int -1).
Your muscles are strong (Str +1).


Message History

The killer bee completely misses you. The killer bee misses you.
The killer bee completely misses you.
You flicker for a moment.
You smell something rotten. (slot z)
You flicker back into view.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel sick.
You feel a little better.
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
You feel sick.
You feel better.
Use which ability? (? or * to list)
You fail to use your ability.
A bolt hits the yak!
The yak bellows!
Use which ability? (? or * to list)
You fail to use your ability.
The yak misses you.
The yak gores you!
You die...

....##.#       #.#
....##.#       #.#
....##.#       #.#
....##.#########.#
....##.##........#
+#####.##........#
.......##........#
........#......(.#
........###....#.#
........###.##.#.#
######....#.##.#.##
     #....####....#
     #^...........#
     #............######
     #..[..Y@..........#
     #.#....)...#.##.###
     #.####+#####.##.#
     #.#######  #.##.###
     #.##[...#  #.......
     #.##....#######.###
     #.##....##........#
     #.##....##.####..##
     #.####....<#  #..#
     #.#  #..##.#  #..#
     ..####..##.####..#
     ####.............#
        #.#.....#####...
        #.#.#####    ##


You could see a yak.

Vanquished Creatures
  A human zombie (Port)
  4 yaks (D:11)
  A wyvern (D:11)
  A hungry ghost (D:11)
  Eustachio (D:5)
  Edmund (Temple)
  A manticore (D:8)
  2 orc warriors
  A sky beast (D:7)
  2 phantoms
  6 ogres
  3 giant frogs
  Sigmund (D:5)
  2 big kobolds (D:9)
  A centaur zombie (Port)
  2 water moccasin skeletons
  A big kobold zombie (Port)
  10 killer bees (D:8)
  The ghost of FartStick the Insei, a weakling OpMo (D:3)
  3 goliath beetles
  3 imps
  4 hounds
  8 orc wizards
  10 worker ants
  2 scorpions
  An iguana (D:4)
  A worker ant zombie (D:8)
  A quasit (D:10)
  3 jellies
  A worm zombie (D:5)
  2 mummies (Port)
  4 gnolls (D:4)
  A midge (D:5)
  15 snakes
  A white imp (D:5)
  3 snake zombies
  A giant mite (D:5)
  3 worms
  7 giant geckos
  2 oozes
  28 orcs
  6 giant cockroaches
  11 goblins
  19 hobgoblins
  7 jackals
  29 kobolds
  2 quokkas
  3 small snakes
  15 bats
  7 giant newts
  3 goblin zombies (Port)
  11 hobgoblin zombies (Port)
  2 jackal zombies
  A kobold skeleton (D:11)
  8 kobold zombies (Port)
  An orc skeleton (D:9)
  6 orc zombies (Port)
  A quokka skeleton (D:7)
  14 rats
  A rat skeleton (D:5)
  3 rat zombies (Port)
  3 toadstools
299 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A snake (D:4)
  2 goblins
  A giant newt (D:4)
  2 rats
  16 toadstools
22 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 321 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | TentaclePorn, the Octopode Monk, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 14/14 MP: 0/0
   489 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 6/19 MP: 1/1
  1278 | D:2      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  1288 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 18/25 MP: 2/2
  2024 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 20/30 MP: 3/3
  2241 | D:3      | Noticed FartStick's ghost (weakling OpMo)
  2257 | D:3      | Defeated FartStick's ghost
  2257 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Stabbing
  2886 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 28/35 MP: 4/4
  3859 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 37/42 MP: 5/5
  3951 | D:3      | Reached skill level 5 in Unarmed Combat
  4781 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  4784 | D:4      | Noticed Edmund
  4792 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  4886 | Temple   | Defeated Edmund
  4886 | Temple   | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth
  5123 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Cheibriados the Contemplative
  5123 | Temple   | Acquired Cheibriados's first power
  5123 | Temple   | Acquired Cheibriados's second power
  5496 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 42/46 MP: 6/6
  5747 | D:4      | HP: 2/46 [ogre/giant club (20)]
  5748 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Traps & Doors
  6396 | D:4      | Reached skill level 1 in Spellcasting
  6639 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  6650 | D:5      | Noticed Sigmund
  6874 | D:5      | Found a sand-covered staircase.
  6890 | ossuary  | Entered a tomb
  7418 | ossuary  | Reached skill level 6 in Stealth
  7548 | ossuary  | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
  7662 | ossuary  | Acquired Cheibriados's third power
  7687 | ossuary  | Reached skill level 1 in Throwing
  7714 | ossuary  | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  7714 | ossuary  | Reached XP level 8. HP: 37/54 MP: 9/9
  8032 | D:5      | Noticed Eustachio
  8104 | D:5      | Defeated Eustachio
  8376 | D:5      | Defeated Sigmund
  8519 | D:6      | Reached skill level 7 in Stealth
  8583 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  8607 | D:6      | Acquired Cheibriados's fourth power
  8676 | D:6      | Found Marhuix's Weapon Shop.
  9525 | D:7      | Found a gateway to a ziggurat.
  9577 | D:7      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  9597 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 4/59 MP: 10/10
 10438 | D:6      | Paralysed by a potion of paralysis for 3 turns
 10443 | D:6      | Gained mutation: Your muscles are strong (Str +1).
 10443 | D:6      | Gained mutation: You are dopey (Int -1).
 10443 | D:6      | Gained mutation: You tend to lose your temper in combat.
 10907 | D:7      | Reached skill level 8 in Stealth
 11746 | D:8      | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
 13064 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 59/65 MP: 11/11
 13372 | D:9      | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
 13523 | D:9      | Reached skill level 9 in Stealth
 13537 | D:9      | Noticed Erolcha
 13721 | D:9      | Reached skill level 1 in Translocations
 14087 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 14481 | D:10     | Gained mutation: You are agile (Dex +1).
 14720 | D:10     | Found Shriupt's Assorted Antiques.
 15066 | D:11     | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 15280 | D:11     | Noticed a queen bee
 15312 | D:11     | Mangled by a yak


One thing that kind of concerned me was this part:

  Code:

  5123 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Cheibriados the Contemplative
  5123 | Temple   | Acquired Cheibriados's first power
  5123 | Temple   | Acquired Cheibriados's second power

Are you supposed to automatically get ** or something? Piety gain seemed quicker than running Vehemut...

[galehar]

Are you supposed to automatically get ** or something? Piety gain seemed quicker than running Vehemut...

This isn't related to Oc or to Chei. This is a new monk perk. They start their first worship with 60 piety (**).

[dpeg]

Poor Octopodes: go Monk for the piety, or Gladiator for the hat

[bobross419]

Thanks for the info Galehar

[Galefury]

Piety gain is slow and slouch is much weaker given your mildly slow speed, and the slower piety gain.

Wearing a full set of ponderous armor makes you fully ponderous, no matter whether it's from 1 of 1 armor slots being ponderous or 5 of 5. You are slowed the same amount, you get the same piety, the same slouch damage, the same stat boosts. It didn't use to be like this, I think it got changed in 0.8. Could be 0.9 though.

AFAIK being slowed helps slouch damage. No idea about piety.

[Kate]

The change was for 0.9, yeah. And I don't think casting slow on yourself ever helps with Chei, I'm not certain about that though.

[dpeg]

Are you sure about speed? It is okay that Chei gives his boosts regardless of number of armour slots, but I wasn't aware that movement speed is treated similarly.

[ryzol]

AFAIK being slowed helps slouch damage. No idea about piety.

If the slowed hex helps slouch damage then it should help piety for consistency. It might already do so. If this is the case is this intended design? It seems odd to deliberately want to hex yourself. However, it does provide interesting choices. Do I spend 2 SL and some hex aptitudes for improved slouch and piety gain? Do I risk slowing myself in this combat for improved piety gain?

If it is desired that Chei users have an incentive to slow themselves then self targeted slow should be unresistible if this is not currently the case.

Furthermore, if the hex change goes through where hexes reduce MR it needs to be decided if self targeted slow will reduce MR. Deliberately slowing yourself already has drawbacks. If it also reduced MR it would be almost unusable.

[galehar]

Slouch (and all other Chei powers and piety gain) only depend on player movement speed. You gain nothing by slowing yourself.

[KoboldLord]

Piety gain and slouch damage are fundamentally different things, though, so they need not be treated exactly the same. Slouch is a tactical effect that you use when there's a fast, dangerous thing attacking you. Being slowed alters your speed of invoking Slouch, so Slouching once after casting Slow on yourself costs three times as much absolute time as just Slouching from the start, and 50% more absolute time than simply invoking Slouch twice. In an emergency, losing absolute time is bad news. Intentionally slowing yourself to get extra Slouch damage is already a losing proposition.

Piety, however, is a strategic resource. You'll routinely find packs of orcs or rats that aren't really much of a threat even if you're wasting absolute time killing them, so an extra piety bonus for being slowed would be a tedious way to get something for nothing. If you don't slow yourself before facing trivial enemies, then, you're wasting piety.

Back on topic, I don't really see why octopodes need a buff at all. Low AC doesn't matter as much if you don't stand in the middle of a pack of enemies. They're forced into EV builds, but EV builds are more popular than AC builds anyway, so it isn't like this is an inconvenience. Even with zero +AC rings, an octopode is only a maximum of seven points of AC down from a spriggan at any point in the game, and when was the last time you lost a spriggan to a swarm of monsters with tiny attacks rather than one big shot from across the room?

Innate blurry vision is an interesting idea, although it is also extremely harsh. Shutting down escape scrolls is a disadvantage that hasn't been used for any other race, and it does make intuitive sense.