Octopodes


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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 19:39

Re: Octopodes

The ideas about deep/shallow water are abusive. Don't go there. This is not about realism -- we have thrown realism overboard when accepting a species "octopode".

Constriction is good, but it should really go to (monster and player) nagas first, in my opinion.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 19:48

Re: Octopodes

It's not about realism, but about creating more new interesting 'possible ways of playing'. And to give water more interest as a game enviroment. What is an octopode without paying attention to water? Just a strong 'ring-wearer' magic user species and bad fighter. I want to see them more interesting and unique.
Last edited by Mychaelh on Monday, 27th June 2011, 19:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 19:56

Re: Octopodes

galehar wrote:Guys, have you ever used nets? Are you aware that trapped monsters can't attack? I'd be more worried about its overpowerdness that its lack of usefulness.


I've used nets and seen monsters break out of them, and the first thing I thought of was the damage an octopode would take once that orc chopped his way out.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 23:46

Re: Octopodes

Maybe they could get bonus aptitude in Throwing skill (especially with rocks)? A tip of the hat to the Zelda games, not to mention the fact that they have more arms to throw things WITH than any other species :D
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Post Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 12:30

Re: Octopodes

XuaXua wrote:
galehar wrote:Guys, have you ever used nets? Are you aware that trapped monsters can't attack? I'd be more worried about its overpowerdness that its lack of usefulness.


I've used nets and seen monsters break out of them, and the first thing I thought of was the damage an octopode would take once that orc chopped his way out.


Constrict might work if it nuked the Ocs EV, but drastically decreased the target's EV and number of attacks as well (significantly more than the slow spell) without disabling them outright. However, it would still be completely unviable for any sort of group combat.
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Post Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 12:36

Re: Octopodes

I like the ink idea - fog cloud with range 1 (9 squares big) short duration (perhaps as little as 2 or 3 turns perhaps increasing with levels) on the breath timer - just enough to get a bit of distance from a melee, or to duck round a corner from a ranged. You could argue for a one turn conf or slow effect, as the people in the cloud wipe the ink out of their eyes, but that is probably overpowered.

How about deep water to deep water teleport on the same level - called "submurge"? - random and uncontrolled, probably a food cost to reflect travel time. That way if they can get to deep water they can get away (but possibly into just as much bother - particularly if this is the only body of deep water on the level as they will just reappear in the same vacinity.)
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Post Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 12:59

Re: Octopodes

I don't think Octopodes need a water ability. Being able to swim properly is already a major advantage in shoals and swamp (and cocytus I guess, haven't been there with a swimmer), and water is rare in most other areas. Sure, it would be flavorful, but is absolutely not needed for gameplay. Is it possible to protect items from Jiyva by storing them in water by the way?

Actual problems with Octopodes are their horrible defense and the very luck based gameplay. If you don't find lots of rings (and a few good ones among them) you're screwed. Simply starting them off with a good defensive ring (protection or even regeneration) would fix both. And unlike the wand of healing DDs get, a +3 or +4 ring of protection would probably get replaced with something better as the game goes on. I think this suggestion has come up before and was rejected without giving reasons against it, but I cant find the post. I think starting them off with some AC from a ring, which is later taken away by replacement with something better, is a much better bonus than AC growing with level.

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Post Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 13:18

Re: Octopodes

I definitely agree that a water based ability isn't needed (although I really do like the idea of 'submerge'). As said, either water is in absolute abundance or just not there at all. If more water based levels were randomly generated maybe it'd be useful, but at the moment I see it either being overpowered or useless.

Ink seems to be pretty well liked, is it mentioned on the wiki thing? could someone (or me if wanted) put it up? I think a one turn slow could be good, especially if the cloud dissipates quickly.

My problem with the ring of protection thing is that basically it's saying 'this race hasn't got enough AC' and if that's the case then it should just be boosted from the start. Although the idea of a ring of protection that you'll get rid of later is nice, you'd probably stick with it until you get a better ring of protection. I was lucky enough to find 2 rings or protection on my last Oc game, and I kept both of them on (even the +1) all the way till I died horribly after I walked downstairs into a rock troll. I think this is probably worth discussing more when the Oc is 'different' rather than as put, a seven ring wearing, bad fighter.

Perhaps they could get a +2/+3 to ice magic? none of the other races have a high aptitude in it (merfolk reasonably high) and it's not an overpowered school. It'd fit with their watery origins and separate them even further.
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Post Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 16:58

Re: Octopodes

a species with a difficult early game is going to like the IE background, and a species with bad AC is going to like Ozocubu's Armour.

I wouldn't quite say that a preferable choice is the same as being skilled at it. I understand the need for a challenge, but many quite experienced (or at least ones I've seen around alot) crawlers have said they're difficult, so I don't see why there's such a resistant to levelling the playing field for Oc's, especially in an area that no other characters specialize in.
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Post Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 19:50

Re: Octopodes

Oh, yeah, +3 to ice sounds appealing, in all the wrong ways. Start with an ice elementalist, go Vehumet, find a couple rings of wizardry, and enjoy Ice Storm at excellent before you even touch the Lair Rune branches or Vaults because you're already at 27 ice magic and stacked wizardry makes up for the missing conjurations. Basically a Tornado Kenku, but without spending all your rings slots on wizardry or depending on early access to an uncommon 9th-level spell.

If anything, octopode magic needs to be scaled back a bit, because stacked wizardry isn't that hard to find and they don't sacrifice anything by making use of it.

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Post Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 20:14

Re: Octopodes

Well they could be suitably nerfed in other ways, perhaps lower spellcasting or conjurations a lot? I'm just saying that they could do with specializing or having some more differences other than being weak and having lots of rings. That just doesn't scream 'fun' for me. Yeah, it is fun, because it's different as I've been playing for ages, but for a newer player, it just doesn't have any instant appeal. Trolls can mulch stuff, Delfs can blast stuff, Helfs can hybrid ect.

What we've essentially got is a human with lots of rings and incredibly rubbish fighting ability.
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Post Tuesday, 28th June 2011, 21:12

Re: Octopodes

Compared to an early human caster hybrid that has a +2 robe or +1 leather, +0 boots, +0 gauntlets, and a +0 cloak, an octopode will have 6 fewer points of AC. If they are both surrounded by 8 green rats in Lair, that's an average of an extra 24hp damage per round. If they are both facing off against a death yak pack lined up in a tunnel, that's an extra 3hp damage per round.

Try not to be the octopode in that first example.
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Post Wednesday, 29th June 2011, 10:01

Re: Octopodes

dpeg wrote:We have left all illusions to reality safely behind us when we agreed on dungeon-roaming calimari.


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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 17:22

Re: Octopodes

Octopodes seem to make pretty strong transmuters, at least in the early game. They do a LOT of unarmed damage. Slap, peck, squeeeeze! Later on, their rings don't meld when transformed. This is strong. (Too strong?)

At present octopodes retain camoflage 1 when transformed. Thematically, they should lose it, as they get new skin.

It's funny that octopodes can't wear any armour. Octopuses can squeeze into anything! Wearing boots or gloves would not make much sense. But body armour would. Maybe replace the amulet slot with a body armour slot (and perhaps the mishapen-body mutation)?

While they're not overly strong due to low AC, they seem like a good candidate for a slow race, at least on land.

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 18:20

Re: Octopodes

smock wrote:It's funny that octopodes can't wear any armour. Octopuses can squeeze into anything! Wearing boots or gloves would not make much sense. But body armour would. Maybe replace the amulet slot with a body armour slot (and perhaps the mishapen-body mutation)?


I think the problem is that most armours only have two arm holes. The tentacles would be somewhat constricted! Of course this needn't apply to robes, they could just cut new holes :)

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 18:54

Re: Octopodes

There's a difference between occupying the space inside a suit of armor and wearing that armor. Octopodes have no shoulders or hips to keep a suit of armor, or even a set of robes, from slipping down on their own. Even using a cap basically boils down to setting it in place and hoping it doesn't get jarred too hard in combat. Trying to keep a suit of plate in place would basically involve maneuvering the armor like a shield, at which point you probably should just use a shield.
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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 19:31

Re: Octopodes

When I initially suggested octopodes wearing armour but being immobile, I wasn't thinking that they could stand up or anything. The armour would just be something to be inside of temporarily; it didn't have to be standing or manipulated as armour normally would be. So, basically Armour = Small Cave or Nook or Cranny.

Also octopuses are *very* fluid. Their ability to manipulate items has nothing to do with thing they happen to be inside of at the moment. The octopuses that I knew would be perfectly happy (excited, even) to be inside a pile of armour and unlock puzzles to gain noms and whatnot.
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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 22:34

Re: Octopodes

Again....
We have left all illusions to reality safely behind us when we agreed on dungeon-roaming calimari.

Although, I really, really think something needs to be done about them I don't think armour is the way forward. Immobile armour seems like a terrible idea, as you'd either need to be tediously setting it down and dragging creatures to it even disregarding the balance issues!

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Post Wednesday, 6th July 2011, 22:52

Re: Octopodes

Clearly, we need a unique octopode assassin that hides in abandoned armor, since the ability is cool but unsuitable for player-controlled characters. This unique could have a poison attack it uses on any player fooled by its disguise, and it probably needs some escape abilities to keep the player from just backing off and shooting. It should probably appear pretty shallow, before the player is likely to be immune to melee poison threats.

I think it needs a name, though. How does Mimic sound?

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Post Thursday, 7th July 2011, 00:21

Re: Octopodes

KoboldLord wrote:I think it needs a name, though. How does Mimic sound?
Lol.

You're right, of course. Bim, too.

:P Ah, well.
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Post Saturday, 6th August 2011, 06:58

Re: Octopodes

New player and love the idea of an Octopus character, or in this case.... Octopode!

Only gripe I really have is that they can't wear cloaks. They can wear amulets, which seem to just be necklaces, so I don't see why they can't wear cloaks. I don't see that it would really get in the way from a pseudo-realism standpoint, and could give a small bonus to help out early on. I've never been past Lair/Mines, so I don't know what end game cloaks are like, but from my playing they don't seem to be a frequently spawned item.
KoboldLord wrote:I'm also morbidly curious now as to how Shatter is abusable for 'stealth tricks'. It's about as stealthy as the Kool-Aid Man smashing through the walls and running through the room
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Post Saturday, 6th August 2011, 21:17

Re: Octopodes

That makes sense then minmay. Game balance takes precedence :)
KoboldLord wrote:I'm also morbidly curious now as to how Shatter is abusable for 'stealth tricks'. It's about as stealthy as the Kool-Aid Man smashing through the walls and running through the room
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Post Monday, 8th August 2011, 04:53

Re: Octopodes

I'd think most would fight unarmed since they have tentacles. I thought unarmed players usually wear light armor? I could be mistaken but even if they're given the choice I don't think many at all would chose heavy armor. Anyway I'd like to see them get a cloak.
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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2011, 09:53

Re: Octopodes

snow wrote:I'd think most would fight unarmed since they have tentacles. I thought unarmed players usually wear light armor? I could be mistaken but even if they're given the choice I don't think many at all would chose heavy armor. Anyway I'd like to see them get a cloak.


Cloaks get tangled in the tenticles?
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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2011, 10:13

Re: Octopodes

snow wrote:I'd think most would fight unarmed since they have tentacles. I thought unarmed players usually wear light armor? I could be mistaken but even if they're given the choice I don't think many at all would chose heavy armor. Anyway I'd like to see them get a cloak.


Give 'em an octobarding. Some heavy armor with eight little tentacle sleeves designed for optimal cephalopod weight distribution.
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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2011, 10:14

Re: Octopodes

RFHolloway wrote:
snow wrote:I'd think most would fight unarmed since they have tentacles. I thought unarmed players usually wear light armor? I could be mistaken but even if they're given the choice I don't think many at all would chose heavy armor. Anyway I'd like to see them get a cloak.


Cloaks get tangled in the tenticles?


Maybe a cloak of fine cloth (silk or something), but a thicker cloak would just ride on top of the trailing pods and shouldn't cause a problem.

Also, been seeing more levels with water in my git build from 2 days ago. Not sure if these are new new or if it just happened that I didn't see many before.

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KoboldLord wrote:I'm also morbidly curious now as to how Shatter is abusable for 'stealth tricks'. It's about as stealthy as the Kool-Aid Man smashing through the walls and running through the room

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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2011, 13:22

Re: Octopodes

nicolae wrote:Give 'em an octobarding. Some heavy armor with eight little tentacle sleeves designed for optimal cephalopod weight distribution.

Make sure you spell that correctly. An octobreading plus hellfire == a tasty appetizer. Mmm, tako tempura...
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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2011, 14:00

Re: Octopodes

Couple things I just thought of...

Can something with a beak use a blowgun?

Tentacles might be too big to wield small (daggers) weapons....
KoboldLord wrote:I'm also morbidly curious now as to how Shatter is abusable for 'stealth tricks'. It's about as stealthy as the Kool-Aid Man smashing through the walls and running through the room
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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2011, 18:24

Re: Octopodes

Considering that octopuses don't do their breathing with their beak, but by generally expanding and contracting their open mantle. They also have a roll of mantle they can use as a jet or blowhole, so it seems to me that they have a reasonable excuse to use blow guns.
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Post Tuesday, 9th August 2011, 20:24

Re: Octopodes

dolphin wrote:Considering that octopuses don't do their breathing with their beak, but by generally expanding and contracting their open mantle. They also have a roll of mantle they can use as a jet or blowhole, so it seems to me that they have a reasonable excuse to use blow guns.


Even Mummies can use blowguns and they're dead, it shouldn't be too hard for an Octopode to think of something. (I read some flavor once that Mummies just use a bladder to shoot air through the blowgun.)
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2011, 12:09

Re: Octopodes

nicolae wrote:I read some flavor once that Mummies just use a bladder to shoot air through the blowgun.)


That would be particularly icky if it was their own bladder...

(Carried around in a little canopic jar? The mind boggles.)
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2011, 21:10

Re: Octopodes

Hey, you never know when those old organs of yours might come in handy.
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Post Tuesday, 23rd August 2011, 21:37

Re: Octopodes

With pressure, Octopodes should be able to launch needles without the need of a blowgun.
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Post Friday, 2nd September 2011, 02:55

Re: Octopodes

I've been through this thread a few times in the past and don't remember if this has been brought up (and no time atm to check).

What about an EV bonus for Op in water? They get a decent stealth bonus in water and I think an EV bonus in water would be fitting... not overpowered, but enough to give them a little extra defense when water is around.
KoboldLord wrote:I'm also morbidly curious now as to how Shatter is abusable for 'stealth tricks'. It's about as stealthy as the Kool-Aid Man smashing through the walls and running through the room

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Post Friday, 2nd September 2011, 10:10

Re: Octopodes

bobross: Isn't this the Merfolk's perk? The two aquatic species should be diverse, not similar.

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Post Friday, 2nd September 2011, 15:02

Re: Octopodes

Octopodes definitely could use some help, but they don't particularly need help in water. Right now they're tasty ogres with more legs.

Might having rubbery skin give GDR instead of AC?

(Aslo, I'm wondering about the description of in the "A" screen of the octopode's tentacles". Shouldn't it read "You have eight tentacles instead of arms and legs", not "You have a large mass of tentacles instead of arms"?)

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Post Friday, 2nd September 2011, 15:12

Re: Octopodes

smock wrote:(Aslo, I'm wondering about the description of in the "A" screen of the octopode's tentacles". Shouldn't it read "You have eight tentacles instead of arms and legs", not "You have a large mass of tentacles instead of arms"?)


"You have eight tentacles instead of limbs"
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Post Friday, 2nd September 2011, 23:14

Re: Octopodes

dpeg wrote:bobross: Isn't this the Merfolk's perk? The two aquatic species should be diverse, not similar.


Different gearing (op gets 2 more slots)
Slight increase in base Stealth (Shared by many other races)
Able to attack w/ aux unarmed when using 2-hander or 1-hander+shield

Aside from that and the way aptitudes are handled, Op has nothing going for it over Merfolk and with the lack of easily available AC and -1 HP table the extra aux attack is dubious to hope for at best.

Water Stealth bonus
Able to pickup items in deep water

Aside from those, the op has nothing to really distinguish it as an Aquatic race.

I'd just like to see water mean something more to an Op. As it stands the aquatic abilities of an Op are rather lackluster. The only places that the stealth bonus really come into play is shoals and sewer and the tactical options are limited in shoals. Even seeing more water throughout the dungeon isn't changing this state.

If something like EV boost in water isn't doable, then maybe a rehash of water fog breathe idea, so that an Op can take advantage of its innate water stealth abilities to get away from monsters that have spotted it. Or anything else that would mean an Op actually has a reason to go in the water sometimes. Shallow water really means nothing to an Op, and the places that are guaranteed to have deep water also mean plenty of monsters that can swim.

I enjoy playing Op in its current state, but more because I like octopi than anything else.

If my hopes are totally off base with dev visions just let me know. Meant this post constructively and understand that tone doesn't come through well in text.
KoboldLord wrote:I'm also morbidly curious now as to how Shatter is abusable for 'stealth tricks'. It's about as stealthy as the Kool-Aid Man smashing through the walls and running through the room

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Post Saturday, 3rd September 2011, 00:32

Re: Octopodes

Water perks are fine, they should just be different from Merfolk. Since Mf was the first aquatic species, they got quite a packed, that's true. Something thematic that'd work well for Oc are constriction (not just in water) and ink (perhaps only in water).
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Post Saturday, 3rd September 2011, 00:53

Re: Octopodes

Ink in water would be great if Op could use it as an escape mechanism to enhance their innate water stealth abilities.

Constriction could be kind of cool if you could drag monsters into deep water, but as it was posted previously in the thread it would either be OP or never used. Or maybe a constricted monster can be drowned in Shallow Water...

Speaking of OP... Op should be OP just by virtue of being Op :D
KoboldLord wrote:I'm also morbidly curious now as to how Shatter is abusable for 'stealth tricks'. It's about as stealthy as the Kool-Aid Man smashing through the walls and running through the room
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Post Saturday, 3rd September 2011, 04:33

Re: Octopodes

I may have spoken too soon about lackluster melee performance. Doing well with an OpMo, he was able to take out a 6-headed Hydra in melee with a potion of might, but had a bit of trouble with a 5-headed on the next level and had to resort to wands to take it out. I've also handled quite a few hill giants, a cyclops, and a yak pack straight up without breaking a sweat. Wearing a shield and still getting the extra attacks is kinda nice.

You hit something. You bludgeon something. You peck something. You squeeze something.
KoboldLord wrote:I'm also morbidly curious now as to how Shatter is abusable for 'stealth tricks'. It's about as stealthy as the Kool-Aid Man smashing through the walls and running through the room
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Post Saturday, 3rd September 2011, 07:05

Re: Octopodes

bobross419 wrote:I may have spoken too soon about lackluster melee performance. Doing well with an OpMo, he was able to take out a 6-headed Hydra in melee with a potion of might, but had a bit of trouble with a 5-headed on the next level and had to resort to wands to take it out. I've also handled quite a few hill giants, a cyclops, and a yak pack straight up without breaking a sweat. Wearing a shield and still getting the extra attacks is kinda nice.

You hit something. You bludgeon something. You peck something. You squeeze something.

The plan is give them reaching, constriction and ink cloud in water but in exchange of the some of the extra UC attacks. We don't need yet another good UC race. Tentacle slap can stay (it's thematic) but the beak attack will go I think.
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Post Saturday, 3rd September 2011, 07:21

Re: Octopodes

I've played an Octopode Fighter and an Octopode Gladiator. 1 AC is not that big of a deal when you have good shields. The gladiator is a much stronger build because it starts with a hat. An Octo Glad can then worship Chei and ponderous the hat for full bonuses. That huge dex bonus gives a lot of survivability by increasing SH and EV.

I'm concerned that Chei may be a the no brainer god for Octopodes. An Octopode of Chei gets full ponderous bonuses for only 1 ponderous hat. With full piety a ponderous hat has better stats than any artifact. Classes that don't start with a hat will rarely find a hat by the temple. This results in players either choosing Octopode classes that begin with hats or worshiping a good god and converting once they find a hat. Solution - all Octopodes start with hats?

The other Octopode God combo that has potential problems is Ashenzari. The problem with Ashen is that MANY rings need to be cursed for an Octopode to be counted as bound. It could be difficult to find enough curse jewelery scrolls. The trade off is that only one piece of armour needs to be cursed. However, hats are hard to find. This can result in the same problem with Chei. The ring solution is to let players choose how remove curse scrolls are corrupted.

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Post Saturday, 3rd September 2011, 08:10

Re: Octopodes

ryzol wrote:I'm concerned that Chei may be a the no brainer god for Octopodes. An Octopode of Chei gets full ponderous bonuses for only 1 ponderous hat.


Note that the bonus from the hat comes at once at ***** piety, and none before. As an Oc of Chei, you'd face a choice among sitting at ponderous until *****, slower piety gain by leaving the hat off, or the interface inconvenience of only putting the hat on before kills.

I'm not very knowledged on melee formulae, but are all the combat bonuses you get from Chei stat boosts greater than, say, those from Okawaru's Heroism + Finesse? Even if so, is the difference great enough to justify losing many of the game's most crucial escape options on an already fragile character? I don't think Chei would be as much of a no-brainer for Octopodes (or any other build) as you claim.
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