Octopodes


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Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 12:04

Octopodes

cybersaint2k wrote:My problem with this being a viable race is that the AC of 1 is just too small.

The solution, without messing with the AC is to give it more attacks. Make it hold multiple swords. Multiple shields, a total of 4 objects, let's say. With two swords and two shields and 8 rings, maybe this critter could make it. But otherwise, it's just too weak.

This was post in the character builds forum, but since it's about the design of the species, I'm answering it here.

This suggestion is ridiculous. It would be completely unbalanced (and dual wielding is already on the won't do list).

We already have many species good at unarmed, we don't need one more. I suggest we remove or reduce the unarmed attacks, and give octopodes reaching. There are still a few issues with reaching, but when they are sorted out, we could give it to octopodes (and all polearms while we're at it).
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Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 12:11

Re: Octopodes

The 1 AC makes them hard early but they're very strong later. I really like their difficulty progression, the challenge is nice and it's good to have races with different difficulty levels early on.

But yeah, tweaking their unarmed would be nice.
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Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 13:38

Re: Octopodes

giving them a reaching attack ability is a brilliant idea!

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Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 13:44

Re: Octopodes

Reaching is an awesome idea, and exactly the kind of difference which would really set it apart.
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Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 18:00

Re: Octopodes

My first Crawl-Octopode "Wunderpusel" lives up to his name. This clever mollusca manages to cut corpses with a knife it just seems to imagine to possess .
Pic shows test after stripping of all possessions:
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Just like the name octopode not much. Would like to see them called Krake in Crawl.
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Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 18:16

Re: Octopodes

Mychaelh wrote:My first Crawl-Octopode "Wunderpusel" lives up to his name. This clever mollusca manages to cut corpses with a knife it just seems to imagine to possess .
Pic shows test after stripping of all possessions:
Image

Just like the name octopode not much. Would like to see them called Krake in Crawl.

I'm pretty sure that's just standard in trunk now. knives are gone as items and are just assumed to be carried for the sole purpose of butchering by all characters.
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Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 18:31

Re: Octopodes

yes, octopodes carry bootknives. :)

edit: on galehar's idea, it sounds pretty good, as does eventually giving reaching to all polearms (and maybe getting rid of the brand on the other weapons where it's applicable).
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Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 19:17

Re: Octopod Adventures (.9)

I think the AC is too small; yes.

I think the game mechanics offer a way to enhance AC without adding armor. An armored octopus is just wrong. But one with several shields and two swords is perfect. :mrgreen:

I agree that there are ways, as with all castors, to avoid contact with the enemy. But in the case of this class, open swarming areas (Mines, Lair and Hive) it seems a horrible problem because damage is not reduced. And if the swarm is poison resistant, and therefore confusing cloud resistant, you are in big trouble.

If you play any character like a tender high elf, you can keep them alive better. I know how to do that, in theory.

But this is a cool race and I wouldn't want to make it into something that takes away its distinctives. Like adding armor, helmets, gloves, boots.

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Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 19:47

Re: Octopod Adventures (.9)

I think the AC could be helped by increasing every few levels.
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Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 19:50

Re: Octopodes

Reaching could work, as could an AC that increases every few levels.
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Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 19:51

Re: Octopod Adventures (.9)

Get they a melee bonus when standing in a water tile? Difference between low and deep water? In water they should be deadly, able to lure monsters in shallow water and attacking them out from two tiles away with a deep water tile between. But they could even get a additional melee malus when fighting on land. This plus reaching ability and some clever minivault code which gives the chance of some random 'canal system' + ponds/grotto every now and then could make octopods very interesting to play. Would depend all on the fine-tuning of the cave river system minivault code of course.

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Last edited by Mychaelh on Saturday, 25th June 2011, 20:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 19:57

Re: Octopod Adventures (.9)

cybersaint2k wrote:I think the AC is too small; yes.

I think the game mechanics offer a way to enhance AC without adding armor. An armored octopus is just wrong. But one with several shields and two swords is perfect.


What?

Do you even know how shields work? SH does not scale like AC. If you double the SH you get in the early game from a buckler, you have endgame-worthy SH that makes you functionally invulnerable for most of a 3-Rune game. Two shields at once is a bad suggestion, full stop. Making it work would require a fundamental rewrite of the code down to the base functionality of shields, all to accommodate this frivolous suggestion that probably didn't involve a whole 30 seconds of thought on your part.

Dual-wielding is also on the "Will Not Do" list, so you're starting a good half-mile behind the starting line for nearly every other idea, and you haven't brought up the tiniest justification for adding it here of all places. If you wanted to make a reasoned argument for it, including relevant implementation details, that would be one thing, but dual-wielding does not appear to relate even slightly to your problems with the octopode race. You seem to have thrown in dual-wielding completely at random.

cybersaint2k wrote:I agree that there are ways, as with all castors, to avoid contact with the enemy. But in the case of this class, open swarming areas (Mines, Lair and Hive) it seems a horrible problem because damage is not reduced. And if the swarm is poison resistant, and therefore confusing cloud resistant, you are in big trouble.


I've cleared all three of those areas with octopodes, and they are not difficult to clear even with poor ring and spell selection. It is absolutely feasible to compensate for the AC disadvantage, even if you don't get lucky with rings of protection.

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Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 20:21

Re: Octopodes

Yeah an AC (or even EV) that increases every few levels would fit with the other low ac races that level that up every few levels.

EV could be an interesting change though.
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Post Sunday, 26th June 2011, 02:56

Re: Octopodes

Asked in the other thread by another: do they simply get no water penalty, or do they get a bonus in water?
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Post Sunday, 26th June 2011, 03:00

Re: Octopodes

Where is the beak located for the octopodes? I thought within the tentacles like an octopus; I don't fight hand to hand much with him so I haven't observed an unarmed beak attack, but it does interfere with helmet wearing. Should it?
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Post Sunday, 26th June 2011, 07:16

Re: Octopodes

XuaXua wrote:Asked in the other thread by another: do they simply get no water penalty, or do they get a bonus in water?

They don't get any bonus, only merfolks do.

XuaXua wrote:Where is the beak located for the octopodes? I thought within the tentacles like an octopus; I don't fight hand to hand much with him so I haven't observed an unarmed beak attack, but it does interfere with helmet wearing. Should it?

I think it's between the tentacles. They are supposed to be just like RL octopus. So the unarmed beak attack doesn't make much sense. And they can't wear helmets, only hats.
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Post Sunday, 26th June 2011, 13:03

Re: Octopodes

Please don't do level increasing on AC. We have a lot of species which cannot wear armor that do it. In the other hand, EV increasing is fine because real octopi are masters of evasion.

Somebody suggested an innate ability to spit foggy ink (or something similar) which I adhere. It would be translated into an EV temporal bonus, to get a better chance to survive in ambush situations
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Post Sunday, 26th June 2011, 13:46

Re: Octopodes

I think I suggested the ink thing on the other octopode thread (although others may have before/after). I think that it would work quite well as a self targeted cloud, although I'm not sure what the effects should be, confusion seems a little strong, but fog seems a bit weak. An EV boost or lowering accuracy for adjacent monsters would be good. I'd prefer lowering adjacent accuracy to an EV boost (as not to interfere with range attacks?), and have the EV boost by level, to differentiate between naga's, even if it was just a +1 EV boost at level 5 and again at 10.
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Post Sunday, 26th June 2011, 14:22

Re: Octopodes

Reaching is good. Innate scroll of fog would be interesting as well (more interesting than increasing EV for levels).

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Post Sunday, 26th June 2011, 15:16

Re: Octopodes

Would the fog affect the octopode itself? If it was the same as a scroll of fog then luring monsters into close combat isn't that preferable due to it's lack of real fighting skill/AC. The only times I've got far with an Oc is using ranged attacks/spells (and once with transmut.), so I worry that this might be to it's detriment instead of a nice way of escaping early very bad situations. Possibly if the ink didn't effect the Oc range attacks, or would that be too strong?
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Post Sunday, 26th June 2011, 15:20

Re: Octopodes

dpeg wrote:Reaching is good. Innate scroll of fog would be interesting as well (more interesting than increasing EV for levels).

The ink cloud could work in water, but how would it work in the air? The octopode spit a cloud a vaporized ink? A bit too far fetched to my taste.

Bim wrote:Would the fog affect the octopode itself? If it was the same as a scroll of fog then luring monsters into close combat isn't that preferable due to it's lack of real fighting skill/AC. The only times I've got far with an Oc is using ranged attacks/spells (and once with transmut.), so I worry that this might be to it's detriment instead of a nice way of escaping early very bad situations. Possibly if the ink didn't effect the Oc range attacks, or would that be too strong?

We're keeping the LOS symmetrical. If you could attack the monster while it cannot even see you, it would be really abusable. It's an escape ability, just like the scroll. You don't use it to attack but to flee.
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Post Sunday, 26th June 2011, 16:10

Re: Octopodes

galehar wrote:
dpeg wrote:Reaching is good. Innate scroll of fog would be interesting as well (more interesting than increasing EV for levels).

The ink cloud could work in water, but how would it work in the air? The octopode spit a cloud a vaporized ink? A bit too far fetched to my taste.

We have left all illusions to reality safely behind us when we agreed on dungeon-roaming calimari. Those things couldn't rightfully move, breath, or otherwise exist. No problem for me. However, the ability to spit ink is their trademark feature (I'd reckon it is better known than their insane agility and high intelligence). So I'd really like to spice up the species by an ability like this, on water and land.

The real reason I want this is gameplay-wise, though: the scroll of fog is useful (and so useful that I would object to a low level spell duplicating its effect). A species having access to the fog would be interesting (at least we should try): you could reliably use it against ranged attackers. The ability should have some cost (both MP and hunger).

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Post Sunday, 26th June 2011, 16:17

Re: Octopodes

Good point, breath timer has to be used. If need be, we can still slap on an MP cost.

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Post Sunday, 26th June 2011, 16:35

Re: Octopodes

Is there any plan for where the aptitudes are going to end up yet? Neutral human aptitudes on an especially fragile race seem to push it fairly strongly towards magic use. They also have the key racial advantage of being able to wear rings of magical power or wizardry without being forced to sacrifice 50% of their ring slots for that purpose, so neutral aptitudes are effectively equivalent to extremely good aptitudes. I think octopodes could absorb a -2 to conjurations, for example, and it would still be very desirable to build up their ranged magic.

It might also be desirable to give them some positive aptitudes in some of the simpler weapons, like maces or spears, to compensate for their melee fragility. Quickly reaching the minimum delay means they spend less time in combat. At the moment, a melee octopode just seems to be an outright bad idea for most of the early and middle game.

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Post Sunday, 26th June 2011, 17:00

Re: Octopodes

+1 for breath timer, I don't think MP cost is overly important for balance (you've either got enough for it not to matter or be much of a choice), and seems odd for an innate ability somehow.
Just for clarification, does reaching stack? as in if you get a polearm of reaching, plus octopode reaching, is that +3 squares?
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Post Sunday, 26th June 2011, 19:02

Re: Octopod Adventures (.9)

KoboldLord, that was a bit acidic to put it mildly. Not everyone knows whats on the 'will not do list' or how the game mechanics work. The suggestions were valid, and although we can all agree that dual wielding and double shields would be incredibly overpowered, there's no need to snap. (Ha! beak jokes) especially comments like
all to accommodate this frivolous suggestion that probably didn't involve a whole 30 seconds of thought on your part.

and
so you're starting a good half-mile behind the starting line for nearly every other idea


Be Nice. :twisted:

This is being talked about on the design forum, so probably best to pitch ideas there. I've found the only reasonable way to get by in guaranteed fight areas is Ozzys armour, a good shield/hat and a ring of protection plus lots of confusion based attacks. otherwise you get minced, especially going downstairs in orc/lair. I think it's a good 'challenge' class, or a 'try your luck' class (in terms of rings and hats), but I don't really see it as a viable option for most beginners or non-hardcore players. Many people would say differently, but I just can't deal with the 1 AC with no reasonable way to raise it, especially in the open areas where you can get easily mobbed.
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Post Sunday, 26th June 2011, 22:17

Re: Octopod Adventures (.9)

Bim wrote:KoboldLord, that was a bit acidic to put it mildly. Not everyone knows whats on the 'will not do list' or how the game mechanics work. The suggestions were valid, and although we can all agree that dual wielding and double shields would be incredibly overpowered, there's no need to snap. (Ha! beak jokes) especially comments like <snip quote> and <snip quote>

Be Nice. :twisted:


If somebody comes up with a seriously problematic suggestion that is completely unworkable based on the fundamentals of the game, I don't think it's very considerate to mislead them into thinking their idea is as valid as any other. Better to rip off that band-aid quick, so everybody can move on, than to make a slow and elaborate production out of it. Cybersaint2k had no real chance of moving dual-wielding or dual-shielding forward, and I'd just as soon he or she did not have to beat his or her head against that brick wall for several days before somebody broke the news that there was no hope.

I plan to take the next suggestion cybersaint2k decides to make on its own merits. This one wasn't workable, but the next one could be really neat.

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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 01:12

Re: Octopod Adventures (.9)

I think these little guys should get some boosting. Perhaps adding more melee attacks? Sure, it's not dual wielding, but being able to tentacle slap a kobold 8 times in a single turn would be pretty cool.

Also: Innate poison resistance and some kind of ink attack would feel natural.

Octopodes should make great and frightening assassins, but right now the AC thing is a problem. On the other hand, if they were stronger in melee (more attacks) they could make a cool "hit and run" build.

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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 01:22

Re: Octopodes

Re the ink ability: on land, a quirt of ink in the face might just blind an opponent for a few turns. This amounts to the octopode turning invisible the opponent for a few turns.

Also, in my build (A1-614), rings do not meld on octopodes. This seems strong, as other races do not retain their armour bonuses in, eg, spider form. Perhaps not too strong, though. That said, in ice form, it seems odd to wear 8 rings on 4 legs.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 03:29

Re: Octopodes

galehar wrote:I think it's between the tentacles. They are supposed to be just like RL octopus. So the unarmed beak attack doesn't make much sense. And they can't wear helmets, only hats.

That's fine, but the message when failing to put on the helmet refers to the beak as the issue.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 07:46

Re: Octopod Adventures (.9)

Schxuschxu wrote:I think these little guys should get some boosting. Perhaps adding more melee attacks? Sure, it's not dual wielding, but being able to tentacle slap a kobold 8 times in a single turn would be pretty cool.

Also: Innate poison resistance and some kind of ink attack would feel natural.

As I already said, I think they should get less melee attacks, not more. We already have several species good at unarmed, let's give it something different. Same for rP, there's already Na and all the undeads, and it doesn't make much sense anyway. An ink ability could be interesting but more as an escape solution (like ?fog) than an attack.

By the way, about ink cloud, here is an idea to make it a bit different than ?fog. Ink is more dense, a single cell is enough to block LOS. And the ink cloud is smaller, only range 1.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 08:56

Re: Octopodes

galehar: ink could be interesting for attacks as well: if you cloud yourself in ink, the monsters may get awake, but they wouldn't know where you are. So you can avoid their shoots/casts, while drawing near. (Note that as phrased, this wouldn't be for stabbing.)
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 09:07

Re: Octopodes

dpeg wrote:galehar: ink could be interesting for attacks as well: if you cloud yourself in ink, the monsters may get awake, but they wouldn't know where you are. So you can avoid their shoots/casts, while drawing near. (Note that as phrased, this wouldn't be for stabbing.)

It wouldn't work with the cloud I proposed. Since the range is only 1, if you step forward, you're immediately visible. The cloud doesn't move with you. Thematically, I think it's fine to keep it as a pure escape ability, just like how crawl's kraken and RL octopus use it.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 09:16

Re: Octopodes

Yes, just for fleeing is also fine. (But note that players will be casting spells though their own ink.)
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 10:58

Re: Octopodes

Elliptic's (smart) comment on the ink cloud ability:
I don't like that because fog is the sort of ability that becomes more powerful as the game progresses
we don't want that for Op


So maybe make it water only. More thematic, a little gimmick which can be useful but not game breaking.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 11:23

Re: Octopodes

I don't like that because fog is the sort of ability that becomes more powerful as the game progresses
we don't want that for Op


I really don't think this will become a problem, Oc's aren't particularly fast and as it doesn't effect monsters (i.e irresistible blind) I really don't think it's too strong of an escape tool. If it's only a single square radius (like casting mephi cloud on self), which doesn't move or disperse, then I can't see it really making for a controlled blink esque escape. Also, as mentioned by many people Oc's aren't very powerful anyway, and this makes up for the AC without having to just raise numbers. It's not like we're buffing DD.

In water I think it would be practically unusable, most maps don't really have anywhere to escape with water (it tends to be off to the side somewhere) or if they do they're so far and few between that it wouldn't see much use, unless you're worshipping Fed, and that seems a bit niche. I personally think it being used all the time, possibly using satiation (alot better thematically than MP in my opinion) and breath timer, so it can't be spammed. Is there anyway to increase the breath timer, or is it all the same for everything?
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 12:32

Re: Octopodes

galehar wrote:Elliptic's (smart) comment on the ink cloud ability:
I don't like that because fog is the sort of ability that becomes more powerful as the game progresses
we don't want that for Op


So maybe make it water only. More thematic, a little gimmick which can be useful but not game breaking.


on the other hand, a pack of footaurs will have a lot of fun with an AC1 squid.
if it's too strong you could use a longer breath timer, or even better a shorter duration for the clouds, to separate it from fog.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 14:25

Re: Octopodes

Can/Should octopodes be able to wield a two handed weapon with a shield? They have plenty of tentacles. That could be a way to boost melee without giving extra attacks or great aptitudes, and it still takes lots of investment to get the two handed weapons usable without long attack delays. Naga style lowered shield penalties might make sense, too.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 14:48

Re: Octopodes

And would also be a big late-game buff which isn't needed. Eronarn (designer and coder of the species) is considering to give them constriction. Attacked enemy is trapped (like with a net) and can't flee.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 15:06

Re: Octopodes

That would suck because they are lousy fighters.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 15:49

Re: Octopodes

I VERY much agreed with XuaXua, It doesn't make much sense to do that other than for the absolute beginning game when you're one on one with the odd kobold/orc and occasionally against a few bee's later on. It's annoying when stuff runs away, but it certainly seems like a rubbish tactic to hold them there whilst other stuff can flank you/also attack you with such low AC, unless, as said early, they got much better unarmed combat/extra attacks (which, as stated, lots of races already have so it's probably a no go.).

Another way it could work is if it was constrict from afar/LOS like a wand of paralyze? so you could stop stuff getting near whilst you deal with other stuff? I can see that working, but possibly being a bit strong, as it would be an almost instant escape in most situations where you could lead something into a corridor and then constrict, stopping anything getting past.

Ink seems good, and would make up for in part for their terrible AC, constriction next to an enemy just seems terrible and I can't see a real use for it.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 17:14

Re: Octopodes

Guys, have you ever used nets? Are you aware that trapped monsters can't attack? I'd be more worried about its overpowerdness that its lack of usefulness.
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Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 18:25

Re: Octopodes

My suggestion elaborated :
For all other species moving on ground is primary and water is an obstacle. Merfolk is amphibious. Make octopodes primary water creatures and
implement a minivault random cave river system.

Deep Water:
- fast regeneration
- fast speed
- reaching abillity is moderatly successfull
- beak attack after successfull reaching
- rings can randomly wear off tentacles and are lost (especially when using reaching abillity)
- ink functions like fog, but will fade away very fast
- random teleport ability to other deep water tiles in same level

Shallow water:
- normal regeneration
- normal speed
- reaching abillity is mostly success
- beak attack after successfull reaching
- rings can randomly wear off tentacles but taken up again, when not lost (especially when using reaching abillity)
- ink functions like fog and will stay long
- controlled blink ability to other water tiles in LOS

Ground:
- no regeneration
- slow speed
- reaching abillity is sledom successfull
- no beak attack
- rings have only very small chance wearing off (a little more with reaching) and are mostly not lost
- ink is 'just' a spit attack with chance to blind enemy for short time
- no natural blink/teleport abillity

- best weapon skill aptitude should be spears with -1
- all other weapon skill apt lower

- Helms should be allowed, but disable beak attack if weared and can be lost in deep water like rings

- good cold restiance, bad fire resistance

call them Kraken
Last edited by Mychaelh on Monday, 27th June 2011, 19:41, edited 3 times in total.
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Crypt Cleanser

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Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 18:42

Re: Octopodes

Strong reason to consider foggy evasion

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duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
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Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 18:44

Re: Octopodes

For all other species moving on ground is primary and water is an obstacle. Merfolk is amphibious. Make octopodes primary water creatures and
implement a minivault random cave river system.


I'm on it, indeed. I've thought about a single level hall for octopodes, probably under the shoals or the swamp.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
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Swamp Slogger

Posts: 149

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 15:39

Location: Thuringia

Post Monday, 27th June 2011, 19:00

Re: Octopodes

It all depends on a good minivault coding. There should be almost always at least a pond or a small grotto with a deep water tile in every level... at a random chance there could be more ponds, little rivers which conect rooms 'through the rock' etc. It should be challenge to go on with octopodes. Kind of 'lake jumping'. On ground they must try to sneak through with stealth, magic etc.
Another idea:
- maelstrom tiles in deep water (function like holes in normal ground tiles).
- first level exit through a maelstrom tile should boost chance of generating a water rich level with the 'cave river system' minivault code.
- Merfolks should be able to use maelstroms too. [?]

- Octopodes should get a random chance to get ill/confused in green water tiles (sewers)
- maybe ability to use water potions to get little time of regeneration on ground tiles
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