Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests


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Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 31st March 2016, 13:03

Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests

Besides the Human, with some sparing references to the other generalist races, I'm going to try and not mention any of the others in this game for the sake of focus. Skip to the line to see my proposal.

Let's talk about Nagas!

Long story short, Nagas are a adaptive race in the same vein of humans (their mean apt is -0.064!) offer a very strong late-game in exchange for a weak early-mid game.

Nagas are offered things like See Invisible, Poison Resistance, +9 AC (at level 27), higher than average Magic Resistance, and an average grasp on every school of magic, and Spellcasting itself. In addition, they gain Constriction at level 13, a very powerful tool that offsets one of their disadvantages; it forces enemies faster than you to make an escape attempt that gives the player more time to pummel their aggressor.

On the flip side...

Nagas have poor defense aptitudes (Dodging, Shields, and Armor are all -2), which makes getting any meaningful gain from your stats a struggle without moderate investments in each, should you choose to utilize more than one. They also suffer from Deformed, which reduces your base AC by half its value, meaning that your set of plate armor will start you off at a disappointing 5 AC. Though raising your Armor skill does very well to mitigate the loss Deformed causes, Nagas have a -2 deficit to Armor, which makes it harder to get a serious effect out of heavy armor. Which is what you're supposed to ideally utilize, since your strength is 10, which gives you a slight bias towards wearing heavier armor while being a functional strategist.

Nagas, as they're known for, possess the slowest base movement speed in the game, at a whopping 1.4 arbitrary units of time per square. Slow movement speed not only demands you take more care with every keystroke, but also emphasizes and pursues players for making mistakes. Barring a well placed hallway, you cannot run from your problems without sufficient tools or spells. This disability takes a fair amount of investment and luck to deal with. This is a non-negotiable feature of the race, though I would still like to put emphasis on how punishing this is in correlation to all their other disadvantages when I ask for this tweak to be taken seriously.

I have covered the black, and the white. I'm going to talk about the gray.

Nagas possess the one of the least powerful mouth based ability (barring Shoutitis) in the game. Mephitic Cloud Breath (which has its own issues) and Steam Breath both have their utility and power, which remains varying degrees of relevant, Spit Poison pales in comparison very quickly as the crawl advances. Its service is to give the Naga a helping hand where it needs it the most, and it does so with meager success. I maintain that it is not sufficient. On the same vein, Nagas tie for the best aptitudes in the arguably worst school of magic in the game; Poison. Poison loses its effectiveness at about the same time their construction proxes work (along with their spit). Constriction is not enough to make up for the weakening of two of their bread-and-butter modes of destroying enemies, in my opinion.

Nagas have a +5 to stealth, tied for first with two other races. For the sake of keeping my promise stated above, I'm going to briefly compare them with another generalist everyman, the Kobold. The mighty Kobold has a diminutive +4 to stealth. They also moves at 1.0 arbitrary units of time, as opposed to 1.4. The Kobold ALSO starts with a dexterity of 11, as opposed to 6. Finally, A Naga approaching a sleeping newt (spooky!) at the end of their line of sight has to take 2.4 auts longer than almost anyone else (barring one of the related races).


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TL;DR The Naga is not suited to dodging, stealth, as it stands, in addition to struggling with strength based builds. Intelligence, a slightly above magic list, and higher than average, and adaptation seem to be their core strengths in the early-mid game. The changes I propose skew Nagas towards a direction of play that I believe is the goal of them, without compromising the design of their race.

1. Poison is reduced to 2, Charms are raised to 1. Enemy nagas constantly utilize haste to remove their core weakness, please help us, Dev Team.

2. Raise Shield and Armor to -1, lower dodging to -3. Their mid-game armor issues would be easier to be dealt with, with this change. They aren't suited towards dexterity, putting further stress on this fact is fine.

3. Provide Tough Skin 1 upon entering the dungeon. If one enters the dungeon with a robe, they will have 2 AC to begin with. This is acceptable.

4. Make the random stat they gain every 4th level either strength or intelligence. They do not lend themselves to dexterity.

Thank you for your time.
duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling


duvessa wrote:DCSS Go: jump down the nearest manhole and fully explore the sewers before you go back out

For this message the author Elitist has received thanks: 2
Dungeoneer, duvessa

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 31st March 2016, 13:41

Re: Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests

Elitist wrote:They aren't suited towards dexterity, putting further stress on this fact is fine.

I raised Dex and trained Dodging on most of my Nagas, at least on the ones that don't want a lot of Int. I don't know if it's a good or terrible idea, but my rationalization is simple - I don't want to wear a plate in early game anyway, and mid/lategame Naga can have decent AC even in a robe.

Edit: also, that is not how Stealth works, it checks once per move, not per aut, being a Naga doesn't make you take more checks, being a Spriggan doesn't make you take less.

Cocytus Succeeder

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Post Thursday, 31st March 2016, 13:50

Re: Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests

+1 for Na being able to get somewhat decent EV if one want it.
I also believe most if not everything else stated by OP is wrong or inaccurate, but unfortunately I don't have time to argumentate right now
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Thursday, 31st March 2016, 13:50

Re: Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests

Finally, A Naga approaching a sleeping newt (spooky!) at the end of their line of sight has to take 2.4 auts longer than almost anyone else (barring one of the related races).

The bolded is completely irrelevant. Stealth wakeup checks do not care about action time. Additionally, stealth does serve to give Nagas some form of fight selection that (as you point out) they otherwise lack. From a gameplay standpoint, their high stealth apt and stealth modifier make perfect sense.

Large race dodging really isn't that big of a deal. In fact other than centaurs (where dodging really is a bad idea), I end up with more dodging than armour skill on all of the other large races in crawl most of the time.
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 31st March 2016, 14:13

Re: Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests

crate wrote:
Finally, A Naga approaching a sleeping newt (spooky!) at the end of their line of sight has to take 2.4 auts longer than almost anyone else (barring one of the related races).

The bolded is completely irrelevant. Stealth wakeup checks do not care about action time. Additionally, stealth does serve to give Nagas some form of fight selection that (as you point out) they otherwise lack. From a gameplay standpoint, their high stealth apt and stealth modifier make perfect sense.

Large race dodging really isn't that big of a deal. In fact other than centaurs (where dodging really is a bad idea), I end up with more dodging than armour skill on all of the other large races in crawl most of the time.


Oi, good to know, forgive me, I'm wrong.

I maintain everything else, however. If we wanted to go the alternate route, raise Dex to 10 and lower Str to 6.
duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling


duvessa wrote:DCSS Go: jump down the nearest manhole and fully explore the sewers before you go back out

Slime Squisher

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Post Thursday, 31st March 2016, 14:43

Re: Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests

1. Poison is reduced to 2, Charms are raised to 1. Enemy nagas constantly utilize haste to remove their core weakness, please help us, Dev Team.
Decreasing an apt of a skill which is extremely useful in early game (given good books) does not help nagas. Raising an apt of Charms actually does not help in the hardest part of the game either. Naga also does not need haste spell more than other characters if played properly.

2. Raise Shield and Armor to -1, lower dodging to -3. Their mid-game armor issues would be easier to be dealt with, with this change. They aren't suited towards dexterity, putting further stress on this fact is fine.
Huge HP pool compensates for poor apts. Low SH apt is mostly irrelevant considering naga size, as they reach no-penalty levels faster than normal-sized species. Of course you end up with slightly lower SH than normally - that's why I used word 'mostly'. Uneven aptitudes force certain playstyle. Currently there is no strong incentive to train armour over dodging, which makes the choice interesting.

The rest has been covered by others.

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 31st March 2016, 16:43

Re: Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests

Btw, you do realize that nerfing Naga Dodging and preventing them from gaining any Dex naturally will make their earlygame (which is already disproportionally hard) only worse?

Blades Runner

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Post Thursday, 31st March 2016, 19:06

Re: Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests

i kind of miss when nagas had XL1 constrict but really the only thing i wish for nagas is that they could swim

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 31st March 2016, 19:14

Re: Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests

Current nagas generally wear a robe for most of the game, for what it's worth. Dex is a lot more useful for them than str.
I like the idea of giving them more str/armour apt and less dex, even though your rationale is based on completely false premises, because currently heavy armour is pretty bad on nagas and they should have more incentive to use it.
Of course you don't want to end up with something like centaurs either, where you always wear plate, so I'd be wary of going too far.

My #1 wish for nagas is for constriction to be removed. Having it at xl1 at least had a purpose in improving a species with a terrible early game, even if constriction itself is an awful mechanic (which it is). Getting it at xl13, or really anything higher than like xl6, is just completely pointless and fails to act as a defining feature of the race.
It's especially odd that octopodes still get it at xl1, since octopodes' xl1 disadvantages are much more manageable than nagas' and remain so for many more xls. Either player constriction should be in the game and naga should get it at xl1, or player constriction shouldn't be in the game. (the correct answer is the second one but the first one at least vaguely makes sense whereas xl13 constriction does not) (monster constriction also shouldn't be in the game)
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Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 31st March 2016, 20:54

Re: Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests

duvessa wrote:Current nagas generally wear a robe for most of the game, for what it's worth. Dex is a lot more useful for them than str.
I like the idea of giving them more str/armour apt and less dex, even though your rationale is based on completely false premises, because currently heavy armour is pretty bad on nagas and they should have more incentive to use it.
Of course you don't want to end up with something like centaurs either, where you always wear plate, so I'd be wary of going too far.


Naga's speed and natural AC bonus over time to me imply they should be investing in heavier armor for it to stack with their scales as to make them powerful later in the game. This is also true of their higher than average strength. It's intentional, I believe.

Look at Centaur. They start with 3 AC and are generally expected to run around at higher than average speeds with heavy armor while using the skill to mitigate their early loss, I agree.

If you would like to argue removing Deformed, I'm all for it.

Sar wrote:Btw, you do realize that nerfing Naga Dodging and preventing them from gaining any Dex naturally will make their earlygame (which is already disproportionally hard) only worse?


I am trying very hard to make their early-mid transition more bearable, which I believe the buffs I'm asking for will do. I'm starting to get this picture that their earlygame is the most difficult in the game, and I am very tentative for asking for anything outside of an extra point of starting AC.
duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling


duvessa wrote:DCSS Go: jump down the nearest manhole and fully explore the sewers before you go back out

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 31st March 2016, 22:34

Re: Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests

Centaurs always wear heavy armour because they are worse than any other species (even Tr) at increasing their EV, and they have plenty of str for the spells they would want to cast (charms etc). This does not hold true for nagas, which have substantially better dodging, actual reason to use conjurations, and so on.
Innate AC, in the quantities Crawl gives to you, is irrelevant to what armour you should be wearing (and if it were relevant then higher innate AC would lower the incentive to wear heavy armour, not increase it, because even AC has slightly diminishing returns due to the inability to take negative damage).
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Friday, 1st April 2016, 06:08

Re: Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests

Let me get this straight. Dodging straight-up just gives you defenses, and the defenses you get from it are directly proportional to your dodging skill. Heavy armor, on the other hand, derives most of its defensive value from the properties of equipment. Armor skill does not enhance the direct defensive benefits of heavy armor quite as much as dodging skill enhances the direct defensive benefits of dexterity. Part of the point in training the armor skill is to mitigate its penalties to dodging, which only makes sense if you have substantial dodging skill; the inverse, training dodging to improve armor, does not exist.

So a species with great apts in armor and dodging will tend to get lots of dodging, at the expense of armor if necessary, while a species with great apts will tend to forgo dodging and focus on armor, if it can weather the penalties to accuracy/spellcasting, thanks to strength and a little skill. Am I getting this right, or am I off? Because nagas have as much strength as centaurs and only a little more dexterity (2).

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 1st April 2016, 06:37

Re: Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests

You are ignoring the other properties of the races. I even mentioned conjurations.

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:Part of the point in training the armor skill is to mitigate its penalties to dodging, which only makes sense if you have substantial dodging skill
Armour skill isn't supposed to reduce the dodging penalty, it only improves your EV because your AEVP is subtracted from EV. You (should) get the same amount of EV from armour skill regardless of how much dodging/dex/size/etc you have.
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Post Friday, 1st April 2016, 06:53

Re: Tweak Nagas: Some Minor Requests

Are the other relevant properties that Centaurs have good ranged apts and bad spell apts and poor MP, and Nagas have a big incentive to use spells since spells mitigate their speed disadvantage?

edit: also, that the difference in stealth apt and stealth modifier is huge, in favor of Nagas, and armor penalizes stealth.

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