New Race: Kitsune

[PowerOfKaishin]

Round 2:

Kitsune

  Code:

Kitsune are shapeshifting foxes with a disposition towards impersonating humans. A Kitsune’s power is marked by the number of tails it has, starting with one at infancy and gaining up to nine when fully grown.

Entering the dungeon as a young, naïve fox, the Kitsune has difficulty learning almost every skill, only surpassing or even matching the basic Human in a select few areas.

However, the Kitsune has far more potential than the Human in terms of specialization. A Kitsune's first tail eventually takes on magical properties and afterwards they proceed to grow more tails at increasingly longer intervals. For each tail, a Kitsune becomes significantly more adept at a single skill, and by devoting two tails to a single skill, they can master it with ease.

A Kitsune's native form as a fox makes them fast, stealthy, and evasive, but very fragile. They are also surrounded by a magical shroud that allows to them deflect unwanted magical debilitations with ease. In contrast, a Kitsune's humanoid form is virtually identical to that of a Human, allowing them to wear equipment used by humanoids and use devices unavailable to an animal without opposable thumbs.

The Kitsune can transform between its humanoid and fox forms at will, and they must make extensive use of both to survive in the dungeon. Unlike a magical transformation, their supernatural transformation is extremely exhausting and cannot be done several times in rapid succession. Very young Kitsune also suffer additional problems.

As the Kitsune grows in power, its native form grows in size. However, while Kitsune grow up extremely quickly, they take a long time to reach full power.

Kitsune are known to serve various gods as messengers and servants and are well-liked by the general pantheon.

Innate Abilities:

  Code:

Kitsune start the game in human form and may transform into a fox and back into a human at will at the cost of a moderate amount of satiation. The act of transforming is exhausting and until XL12, causes vertigo. The success chance for this skill is max(100; 52 + XL*4)%.

In Human Form:
 - (no basic changes from a human)

Fox Form:
 - Fast 1
 - +40 MR
 - See Invisible
 - Base AC of 2 (as though the player was a jackal)
 - All equipment is melded except for rings and amulets.
 - Little/Small/Medium/Large/Big, starting at Little and advancing one step at XL6 and every 6 levels after that.
 - Always treated as Little for purposes of evasion, but not stealth
 - -5/-2/0/+2/+5 STR (if penalized, stops before 0 and has no penalty if already at 0 or less)
 - [If there's a simpler way to explain this, let me know.] Allows Transmutations, but all complete species transformations (including Spider Form, Tree Form, and the like but excluding Lichform and Statue Form) use the human form as their basis. Basically, the Fox Form status effect goes away if the player casts Spider Form and comes back when that effect ends, but Fox Form doesn't disappear if the player casts Blade Hands or Statue Form.
 - All restrictions that apply to Felids apply to Kitsune in Fox Form as well.
 - Unlike with other small or large creatures, disregarding loss of equipment, Kitsune in Fox Form do not become frail or robust.

Kitsune have a base Strength of 9, Intelligence of 10, and Dexterity of 11.

Level Bonuses:

  Code:

+1 INT or DEX every 4th level.
Average HP
Average MP
+3 MR per level
Fox Form's size becomes Small at XL6, Medium at XL12, Large at XL18, and Big at XL24. Each of these changes is accompanied by a decrease of 1 to the Kitsune's experience aptitude.
Kitsune gain an extra tail every 3 levels (at XL3, their first tail becomes magical instead). For each tail, a Kitsune may permanently increase aptitude other than Fighting by 3 (a screen similar to that when quaffing a potion of experience will be shown). Any skill may be increased up to two times.

Aptitudes:

  Code:

Fighting -2
Short Blades -2
Long Blades -2
Axes -2
Maces & Flails -2
Polearms -2
Staves -2
Unarmed Combat -2
 
Throwing -2
Slings -2
Bows -2
Crossbows -2
 
Armour -3
Dodging -1
Stealth +1
Shields -1
 
Fire Magic -1
Ice Magic -1
Air Magic -1
Earth Magic -1
Poison Magic -1
 
Spellcasting +1
Conjurations -3
Hexes -1
Charms -1
Summoning -3
Necromancy -3
Translocations -3
Transmutations -1
 
Invocations +1
Evocations -3
 
Experience 1 > 0 > -1 > -2 > -3

Alright, I took the design philosophy into account and remade the species. Here are a few notes:

Took the suggestions regarding bad apts across the board, more extreme changes to apts, and a changes to experience apt.

I removed most of the fluff, including the evocations ban. I kept Fox Form because I liked the idea a lot. I'm sure you guys will let me know if either of those two things make this race OP, although I can't see them above VS, Sp, or Gr at the moment.

Banning spells like necromutation makes the job of whomever decides they feel like adding tiles to the game a whole lot easier, since currently necromutation and statue form are compatible with fox form and fox form and humanoid form both have a variable number of tails. They are not currently banned, however.

The elemental schools have lesser penalties (-1 vs -3) because otherwise elemental specialists (especially ice and fire) get shafted. On paper, at least. Let me know if you think this is necessary or not.

The MR bonus and see invisible are both in place to give Fox Form another use. The player can weigh whether or not they want to incur vertigo to deal with pesky orcish wizards. Surprisingly enough, these two bonuses combined with great evasion help out a lot if you suddenly see Sigmund and only-somewhat-suicidally decide that you want to take him out (with the right setup, of course).

Last time on Dragon Ball Z:

Spoiler: show

Kitsune

  Code:

Kitsune are shapeshifting foxes with a disposition towards impersonating humans. They have fox ears as well as multiple tails in both human and fox form, with the number of tails denoting how powerful the Kitsune is. Kitsune are holy beings and cannot use evil items nor worship evil gods among other restrictions.
 
Although each Kitsune is different, as a race they have a predisposition against violence, and any Kitsune attempting to learn such arts will find racial disabilities working heavily against them. Being holy, the same applies to the necromantic arts. However, more powerful Kitsune often find they can succeed at almost anything they put their minds toward.
 
Kitsune have no such problems with non-violent arts, and are just as capable as humans in those regards, if not more so. They are pranksters by heart and have an affinity for enchantments, both hostile and helpful. All Kitsune are also adept at transforming by nature of their bodies.
 
Kitsune are known to absorb energy to heal. They may absorb the magic from magical wands and rods to heal themselves. Because of their magical sink nature, Kitsune cannot evoke any magical item.
 
Kitsune are known to serve various gods as messengers and servants and are well-liked by most deities. However, as Kitsune are considered holy creatures, they are despised by the evil gods.
 
Kitsune are by no means weak in any aspect of their bodies. They are stronger, smarter, more agile, and more magically adept than their human counterparts while being just as sturdy. Their nature as holy beings also gives them some slight resistance to negative energy, and as their primary form is that of a fox, Kitsune tend to be very stealthy.
 
Kitsune gain their tails as they level up, allowing them to increase their skills in turn. In addition, each tail allows the Kitsune to better balance itself for extra agility. It takes a long, long time for any Kitsune to reach full power; they advance in levels as slowly as a Demigod.

Innate Abilities:
Kitsune cannot evoke any item, including wands and amulets of rage.
Kitsune cannot worship any evil god (Yredemnul, Kikubaaqudgha, Makhleb, Lugonu) nor use any evil item. They may not cast Necromutation, but may cast any other Necromancy spell.
Kitsune have a single rank of life protection.
Kitsune have fox ears, even in human form (as well as statue form), and cannot wear helmets. They may still wear hats.
Kitsune may absorb all of the current charges of any rod or wand to heal themselves. For wands, if the max number of charges is 9 or lower, Kitsune gain [(X + 1dX)*3/2); X = Charges] HP. For other wands, Kitsune gain [(X + 1dX)*1/2; X = Charges] HP. For rods, Kitsune gain [Charge] HP. This expends the wand or rod completely and decreases the enchantment of any rod by 1 (down to the minimum a rod can have). Wands used for this purpose do not need to be identified.
Kitsune start the game in human form and may transform into a fox and back into a human at will at the cost of a moderate amount of satiation and a decent chunk of MP. The act of transforming is exhausting, although higher-level Kitsune are exhausted for shorter periods of time.
In Fox Form, Kitsune experience the following changes: Fast 1, Tiny (bonuses to stealth and evasion), all equipment except for hats and amulets are melded (rings are melded, as they do not properly fit on paws), -5 STR (stopping before 0 and having no penalty if already at 0 or less), and all restrictions that apply to Felids (that aren’t covered already) apply to Kitsune in Fox Form as well. Unlike with other tiny creatures, disregarding loss of equipment, Kitsune in Fox Form do not become frail.
Kitsune have a base Strength of 9, Intelligence of 10, and Dexterity of 11.

Level Bonuses:
+1 DEX every third level.
Average HP
10% more MP than average
+5 MR per level
Kitsune start with a tail, because what fox doesn’t have a tail? They gain an extra tail every 3 levels for a total of 10 tails at max level. For each tail (not including the starting one), a Kitsune may permanently increase any two aptitudes other than Fighting or Evocations by 1 or increase any one aptitude by 2 (a screen similar to that when quaffing a potion of experience will be shown). The maximum any aptitude can have is +5.

Aptitudes:

  Code:

Fighting -2
Short Blades -3
Long Blades -3
Axes -3
Maces & Flails -3
Polearms -3
Staves -3
Unarmed Combat -3
 
Throwing -3
Slings -3
Bows -3
Crossbows -3
 
Armour -2
Dodging 0
Stealth: +2
Shields -2
 
Fire Magic 0
Ice Magic 0
Air Magic 0
Earth Magic 0
Poison Magic 0
 
Spellcasting +1
Conjurations -3
Hexes +1
Charms +1
Summoning 0
Necromancy -3
Translocations 0
Transmutations +1
 
Invocations +1
Evocations N/A
 
Experience -2

Recommended classes:
Wizard – With the exception of Conjurations, Kitsune have good aptitudes with regards to all of the schools in the starting wizard book. As a result, they can afford to put points in most of these schools without shooting themselves in the foot later.
Transmuter – Kitsune have a good transmutations aptitude. In addition, unlike with their weapon skill aptitudes, putting the tails bonus towards their terrible unarmed combat aptitude is a choice they can commit to right off the bat. By level 12 it is possible to have a +5 in UC, allowing them to hit 27 with incredible speed.
Summoner – Gives another way to deal damage
Enchanter – Kitsune start with piddly for short blades, but they only need stealth to go stabbing. In addition, they are good at hexes.

Thoughts, comments, questions, concerns? Could you see yourselves playing this race and having fun? If you can't, I've messed up.

As for balance, they can become tanky felids at the snap of a finger, but they keep their hat instead of their rings, which hurts a lot. Their bad aptitudes in many different areas can also only be alleviated early game in the killdudes department, which could cause some problems for them.

[lethediver]

My opinion: tone down the effect of tails. +18 aptitudes wherever you want is just ridiculous. +9 seems closer to reasonable. In exchange make the weapon apts a little better.

Making the aptitude you gain random would be even better than that and less prone to abuse.

this race cant wear rings in fox form. But felids can? Consistency here would be pawsome. Thx.

[duvessa]

also this race wont be added because dpeg banned japan from crawl

wait what? Dare I ask?

no katanas

ok so here are the biggest problems with the race

4th biggest problem: this tail gimmick boils down to "they have mediocre aptitudes before lair-ish, and the best aptitudes in the game after that". crawl characters don't train that many different skills to a high level

3rd biggest problem: you say they cannot evoke any item, but "evoke" is not something that is well-defined in crawl. can they use polearm reaching? also, how is a kitsune of trog supposed to dig if it can't use a wand or a stone of earth elementals?

2nd biggest problem: too much stuff attached. the evil god and necromutation conducts, life protection, and helmet restriction are pointless (fox ears can just be flattened down temporarily, i've done it). fox form is overly similar to bat form and doesn't seem necessary.

1st biggest problem:

Spoiler: show

[Lasty]

PowerOfKaishin, you're running into the same issue a lot of proposals fall victim to here: you aren't editing. This proposal has enough bells and whistles to fill out at least 5 different species proposals, but there's no focus. I think you might be designing purely by flavor without consideration for the gameplay the proposal would result in. A good proposal should be tightly crafted and carefully considered; figure out exactly what you're shooting for and trim out everything that doesn't contribute to that goal.

[PowerOfKaishin]

bout time, Duvy. It shouldn't take you 3 posts to give me a decent response. >.> You're supposed to be the serious person in an otherwise cruel and mocking world.

ok so here are the biggest problems with the race

4th biggest problem: this tail gimmick boils down to "they have mediocre aptitudes before lair-ish, and the best aptitudes in the game after that". crawl characters don't train that many different skills to a high level

Magic-based ones are more prone to being split up and I don't think a physical class is the best option for this race anyway. Also, they have some crappy defensive aptitudes as well. Would you recommend making those worse?

3rd biggest problem: you say they cannot evoke any item, but "evoke" is not something that is well-defined in crawl. can they use polearm reaching? also, how is a kitsune of trog supposed to dig if it can't use a wand or a stone of earth elementals?

They can't evoke magical items; rods, wands, evocable staves, sack of spiders, CBoE, etc. Stave passives still work. Anything I missed?

2nd biggest problem: too much stuff attached. the evil god and necromutation conducts, life protection, and helmet restriction are pointless (fox ears can just be flattened down temporarily, i've done it). fox form is overly similar to bat form and doesn't seem necessary.

So the holy stuffs and other flavor should go bye-bye? Lasty seemed to have reached the same conclusion.

What do you mean by "doesn't seem necessary"? As in it's not necessary because we already have a race with that shtick? If that's the case, then you might as well remove either DE or HE, because they're far more similar to one another than vampire and fox-human-thing will ever be.

If you think it doesn't seem necessary because it's an OP ability, then please say that.

1st biggest problem:

Spoiler: show

The whole no japan thing doesn't work since you have Tengu in the game. Nice try.

However, I know there's a lot of negative stigma attached to humanoid mythological creatures from japanese folklore. I didn't intend for this to be crazy-japanophilish. I looked through some fictional races I thought could be crawlified and decided to give this one a shot. So sorry if it ended up that way.

PowerOfKaishin, you're running into the same issue a lot of proposals fall victim to here: you aren't editing. This proposal has enough bells and whistles to fill out at least 5 different species proposals, but there's no focus. I think you might be designing purely by flavor without consideration for the gameplay the proposal would result in. A good proposal should be tightly crafted and carefully considered; figure out exactly what you're shooting for and trim out everything that doesn't contribute to that goal.

Well I figured if I added too few things it would just be "human with some slight quirks". There's a whole bunch of cool crawl races that have a bunch of stuff attached to them. All of the undead races, Draconians, Viney McMagicSucker, and especially the Felid race. Clearly having more than a few changes from a human isn't the worst thing in the world.

But I definitely see what you mean with respect to the whole wand thing. Maybe I could take that out. I was afraid this race might be OP so I wanted to add weakness and figured I could take the chance to add a new idea to the plate.

serious reply? what kinda fox has multiple tails? this is a thematic question, of utmost importance

Yeah, okay. The fictional kind. Happy now? lol

Do you want me to just give it two tails and the ability to fly?

this race cant wear rings in fox form. But felids can? Consistency here would be pawsome. Thx.

I wanted Fox Form to be similar to a Felid but still be distinct. Without that it's essentially a tanky Felid since it has 100% HP. The hat thing was just a spur-of-the-moment thought, so I could probably take that out.

My opinion: tone down the effect of tails. +18 aptitudes wherever you want is just ridiculous. +9 seems closer to reasonable. In exchange make the weapon apts a little better.

Would you think that halving the bonus and taking away some of the detriments would detract from the experience? If not, this seems like a reasonable change.

Making the aptitude you gain random would be even better than that and less prone to abuse.

It's one thing with the Draconians because you can immediately use what you get (and because Draconians abilities are badass), but there are over 10 different schools and a whole bunch of different weapon types, many of which from both categories have a very real chance of not seeing any use. I feel that randomly getting aptitudes that you don't want would only serve to make people agitated, which is not what this game is meant to do.

And before some smartass rebukes that last statement, crawl is meant to be challenging, yes, but nothing in either the DCSS design doc or the general consensus of what makes a game good supports adding unnecessary stress and annoyance

[ion_frigate]

Serious question: what do you think Fox Form adds to this? Of course it's very thematic, but the only real advantage they get from it is Fast 1. Even before the aptitude increases this isn't a particularly weak race, especially since (past the very early game) they will have a lot more ready access to healing than most races. I just don't see how they need an escape/panic button - at least with bat form, it sort of makes sense since lower-satiation Vp have lowered or no regeneration.

Also duvessa has a really good point about most characters not training that many skills - even a caster, in a 3-rune game, rarely trains more than a few seriously (>15). You might simply want to limit the maximum aptitude to +2 or +3 to avoid some particularly cheesy builds (especially if, as I'm assuming, the total number of skill points you've earned gets applied against the new aptitude, like with Dr).

[Tiktacy]

I would try to remove some of the un-needed flavor mutations(not all), remove kitsune form(doesn't add anything to the game and is weird), and focus specifically on the extra tails part of the race.

I think the idea of adding aptitudes upon leveling up is very interesting in concept, explore some different ideas on this and try to determine if semi-random bonus allocation would be more interesting than simply choosing the skill you want to upgrade. I think this race has potential, do not be discouraged by some of the more negative feedback. Duvessa is responding to this and also was nice enough to give some pretty constructive critique on it, consider that a compliments. Lasty also gave a good response, listen to his advice.

Stay honed in on creating a balance of flavor and gameplay, consider the fact that this will be available for all new players so it needs to be simple enough for a new player to use, try to understand what the devs look for in a new race by looking at some of the more recent additions(Vine stalkers, Formicids, gargoyles).

As for some more specific changes, remove the natural holiness shtick, it doesn't go well with the race from a flavor standpoint and is bad from a gaemplay standpoint.

Most importantly, don't give up. Player created races do not make it into the game easily, formicids thread was many pages long and went through many revisions. That original version was an absolute mess if I remember correctly, but it made it into the game eventually and is now quite a neat little addition.

[dpeg]

PoK: It's sad that people can't hold water and reply with nonsense in an obviously honest-to-god serious GDD suggestion. On the other hand, it's also sad that you didn't follow the (eventual) lead and trim down your proposal.

I don't care about the flavour at this stage (we'll get to Japan later), so only on mechanics: as I see it, evoking-denial and evil god-denial and rN and fox ears add little, and are actually harmful. (This had already been mentioned.)

Healing from wands/rods: why? I understand this neither from a gameplay nor flavour perspective. Carrying around otherwise useless wands for more emergency healing sounds very bad to me.

Fox form: I understand the flavour, but I miss the gameplay advantage. (I'll admit that we caused a precedent with Vampire's batform.)

So there is one interesting feature of this proposal, to me: a species that starts with bad aptitudes which the player can modify a bit during play. That could be discussed in more depth. duvessa has a good point, of course, in that many games have a pre-conceived or just preferred build, and you only need so many skills for that. I believe this could be addressed. For example, further choices of the same skill could have higher costs.


dpeg vs Japan: Banzai! Kamikaze!! Gyokusai!!! Seppoku!!!!
And don't even get me started on Me are me nashi.

[duvessa]

It's not obviously honest-to-god, I thought it was another joke proposal for the first half an hour. Don't you remember how many people mistook felid for a joke when it was first suggested?

[Lasty]

Deleted all the off-topic posts in the thread except this one. Please keep it on-topic, folks.

[adozu]

wait what about japan?

i mean we have tengu anyway?

kitsune is on the same level as i see it...

btw: what if the attitude increase happened at random? we have similar concepts in demonspawn and draconians anyway and i think people like those races.

[yesno]

no one thinks tengu are cool or kawaii. if i look up 'tengu' on the internet i'll find some dumb anime art but mostly old paintings, statues, and masks. if i look up kitsune i will find numerous 100-thousand-word erotic fiction opuses about kawaii kitsune who do sexy murders with katanas. there's japan and then there's japan.

[amaril]

Race: Kitsune

Kitsune cannot wear helmets.
Kitsune have mediocre/poor base aptitudes but receive a +2 bonus to a random aptitude every three levels. These bonuses are permanent, and one aptitude may receive multiple bonuses. These numbers can be tweaked, sacrificing flavor (nine total bonuses) as needed. Fewer but more significant aptitude bonuses might be more interesting.

The 'core race idea' is a race with initially poor aptitudes that finds 'manuals' (more or less) as it levels up, possibly encouraging hybridization or deviation from a playstyle.

[dynast]

Why are the aptitudes so hostile towards weapon fighting? I get that as the game progress you can increase those and eventually become a hornless minotaur but that also means you will always start the game as a felid spellcaster, trying to get free range from enemies that cant chase you, instead of just playing a felid or not a mummy.

[TeshiAlair]

So, I think no-wand and random-apts are both interesting concepts but I agree that they could be separated. I'd flatten the apts as well a bit in this case.

I think it could be interesting to have them gain exp human or faster rate early, and then slow down as they level up. So, they hit a power plateau earlier than most races, but have a trickier very early and very late game.

[MainiacJoe]

Aptitudes that improve over the course of a game feel more like a god ability tied to piety than race ability that matures. In particular, it would be easier for the apts to wax and wane instead of always just increasing. I think an algorithm similar to Jiyva's stat shuffling is ideal, responding somehow to actions taken.

[adozu]

that would just be "victory dance - the race"

[MainiacJoe]

I'm too new to remember victory dancing myself, but now that you mention it I recall what it is. You are exactly right about my idea.

[johlstei]

Gonna +1 the idea that the aptitude changing is the interesting part here. "Other races have quirks like forbidden gods and resistance pips" isn't really a good reason to continue the trend. I would get rid of pretty much everything else on your list, and focus on making the proposed aptitude changing as interesting as possible. If you want to save fox form, maybe simplify it to +swiftness or something of the like, where it makes you fast for awhile, then slow for awhile.

[PowerOfKaishin]

So then what I'm hearing is that I should produce another draft at some point in the future? I'll do that, but first I want to hear your opinions on some of the following topics. This post won't contain any quotes, so I apologize in advance if you feel ignored. You've all been a great help though. Shoutouts especially to Tiktacy for words of encouragement and Lasty for cleaning up.

I found some already proposed stuff that was dumped in the brainstorm pile and it could be kind of interesting. I like the whole idea about forcing the player to play a Felid for 3 or 6 levels, but that's obviously not for everyone.
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... es#kitsune

Anyway, lot of this race was created from adapting various things I saw in mythology and then adding some other things I thought might be interesting.

I had the idea for growable apts a while ago, but realized that it would fit really well with a race that grows distinct physical features over time, so here we are with the fox spirits. According to some lore I read, the god of kitsune is the only one with 10 tails (all others cap at 9), but I figured a player character should be a demigod of destruction at max level, so 10 tails. If they start with one and gain another each time they would stat up, it works out perfectly.

Somebody asked why I only penalized offensive skills. That was just me adding my own personal touch, but figured it would be interesting from a gameplay perspective. However, also from a gameplay perspective, half of the skills circumvent the need for the tail bonus so I say we just give them mummy-like apts across the board and see how that goes. If I do that then fox spirits should get the tail bonus for their first tail at level 1. That'll add consistency too.

If we set all of their apts to -2/-3 (or -1/-2 for transmutations, enchantments, stealth and dodging, for flavor and to encourage a starting direction), then a +2 every third level seems appropriate. I originally just wanted a flat +2 to any one skill (not being able to split it up) but I originally thought that meant I would need to make every apt (except fighting) an odd number in order to have the +5 cap work. Instead it can just be made such that the tail bonus can only be spent on the same skill three times or something. Obviously 4 is too much and having 2 or less be the cap wouldn't really allow the race to have something truly powerful yet unique to them.

The apts only matter for a 3-rune game since, as many people will attest to, extended gives more exp than one would ever need (though the early parts of extended are significantly less monotonous with good apts). With a -2 exp growth, it can be reasonably assumed that the player isn't hitting XL27 at any point in a 3-rune game, so from my end, it seems as though the full effect of the tail bonus is going to be more discrete than it looks like on paper. What if we gave them -3s across (most of) the board, but increase the tail bonus to something extreme like +3 or even +4 (and only allow it to be applied to the same stat once or twice)? This seems to be the major highlight so exacerbating its effect would be a good plan.

Evocations can't be increased because of the earlier stipulation, if we keep that. Fighting can't be increased because before it reaches the cap of 27 it's essentially choosing a slightly less powerful form of robust, which feels inappropriate and possibly game-breaking (especially if the tail bonus is increased). And of course allowing it to be applied to fighting means that literally everyone playing this class that knows what they are doing is going to want to invest the bonus in that at some point, which overcentralizes it even moreso than something like armour or dodging, where you at least have to decide if you're going to bother with one, the other, or both.

So according to some other lore I read, fox spirits consume life force from the surrounding area as their form of food, but I didn't want them to just become vampires (kill enemies for sustenance) or mummies (not have to work for sustenance at all), so I added in the absorb wand thing.

Maybe the wand thing can be a power they get at higher levels or just taken out entirely? I could see how it could break the game at lower levels but at higher levels it's more of an extra option than anything else. But it does seem extremely tedious to carry around all of those extra wands, especially if you don't play with a stash (and playing with a stash still makes it tedious).

As for evocations, what are magical items that don't depend on the skill? Maybe all magical items are unevokable or simply all magical items that depend on evocations? Maybe removing wands is a bad idea, but not having confusion for hydras (disregarding the spell) or iceblast (or fireball, if you don't play trunk) for swarms of killer bees can certainly turn a major annoyance into a full-blown crisis, which could make for some interesting situations. HW and Tele are obviously not things to rely on finding, so I'll leave those out of this discussion for now.

In lore, Kitsune are foxes that can transform into humans, hence Fox Form. Despite good stats, I feel like the -2 exp apt and the shitty starting apts (especially if we make all of them shitty) would make this race fairly difficult without Fox Form. Of course, regardless, I highly doubt Fox Form will make them easier than Viney or Spriggy and not having it will still leave them better off than most of the hard races. The above poster suggested giving it a harsher penalty instead of simply Exh, but making it the same as swiftness would be somewhat superfluous. If they don't have it, then there's probably no reason to give them a harsh exp penalty. Giving them 0 or even +1 would really let their primary advantage take off, so that seems like it could be a great idea.

Most people seem to think Fox Form is unnecessary, but I like it as an idea a lot so I'm going to at least attempt to suggest something before a second draft. Besides, it seems strange to call them Kitsune if they can’t transform into a fox.

What if Fox Form got stronger with more tails? Perhaps it could grant extra MR in addition to Fast 1 (but Kitsune in human form would only receive Human MR instead of Naga MR, which is what they have now), thus encouraging its use against enemy wizards. However, being in Fox Form means the player will have some difficulty masticating them to death. At higher levels, maybe one could transform into a bigger fox, eventually losing Tiny and then Small and even possibly becoming Large or even Huge. They receive better damage bonuses but no longer receive crazy EV and Stealth (eventually even hurting them if they become Large or Huge). Having Fox Form also means the player can choose to move quickly while travelling and transform into a human when trouble arises, but they lose their ability to escape easily. Or they could travel as a human and keep their somewhat-emergency button.

It's pretty popular consensus that a lot of the fluff is unnecessary, so let's take away rN, no helmets, holy creatures, etc. Yay, Kitsune worshipping Yred, Kiku, Makhleb, and Lugonu.

[Hurkyl]

My inclination would be to stick to nine tails, and at level three your first tail becomes magical.

[njvack]

So then what I'm hearing is that I should produce another draft at some point in the future?

Yeah, either editing the OP or posting a revised proposal in this thread.

I'm with dpeg here -- the "all your aptitudes are terrible at the start but you can make them better" is an interesting concept for a challenge race. How terrible and how much better are math problems, the root concept is interesting. Basically everything else is unnecessary to the concept.

Stylistically: use fewer words. Your posts are really long and reading a lot of text (especially with Tavern's layout) is really taxing.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Alright, I updated the OP.

[Hurkyl]

I think the first thing I'd do if playing the current version of KiFe is shift to fox form, to take advantage of speed/stealth/EV with no downside. I'm not sure if that counts as a good or bad thing. Maybe allowing this (or even starting them in fox form) would be enough compensation for them to have the lower elemental aptitudes.

[PowerOfKaishin]

I think the first thing I'd do if playing the current version of KiFe is shift to fox form, to take advantage of speed/stealth/EV with no downside. I'm not sure if that counts as a good or bad thing. Maybe allowing this (or even starting them in fox form) would be enough compensation for them to have the lower elemental aptitudes.

That's a good point. Unlike a physical start, mages come out of the gate with the same AC a player gets in fox form. So having them be stuck with -3 would be a good balance since by level 3 chances are they have found leather or aux equips to make the FF AC actually a detriment

[Wahaha]

I don't think gaining aptitudes from leveling is interesting. I don't think it affects skill training decisions at all. It only means gaining exp faster.
Also the 1st biggest problem is real.

[amaril]

I think this race is a lot more interesting if the aptitude bonuses are random, even though this means that some useless skills (for your build) will receive bonuses.

The form changing conduct looks unnecessary, and would dilute the strengths of this race idea with annoying micro-manage-y gameplay, but I could be wrong in practice.

[Tiktacy]

Get rid of fox form, its one thing to make use of a concept that is popular among players and make another species with a similar ability, but bat form to my knowledge is not considered "popular" by any means. I am among one of the few people that genuinely likes vampires as a species, but even I don't consider bat form to be interesting or fun. Its extremely flavorful though, which is still more than can be said about the fox form idea.

Fox form in my eyes is a worthless facet of the proposal with no redeeming qualities that I can discern. Its clunky, over complicates things, adds extra work for coders, pretty lackluster flavorwise, concept is already uninteresting in its current form(imo at least), really the list goes on. I could go on, but I think you get the idea. The tails thing is a cool idea, focus in on that specifically, make that the main interest point and add on ways to compliment it.

That's not to say I don't appreciate the attempt at fixing it, I understand the feeling when you have a vision of what you want a species to be like. I guess if you really think its that great of an idea, you could try to recreate it in some form, but the way its currently shown in the OP it just looks like a mess. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm literally falling asleep at the keyboard while typing this so who knows, I'll probably give more input tomorrow.

[Hurkyl]

I can understand not liking the mechanic, but the hyperbole is ridiculous. On the flavor aspect, I'll presume it's just a lack of knowledge so I'll explain. Whereas a vampire is humanoid and in the occasional mythos has the ability to turn into a bat, a kitsune is first and foremost a fox, usually with the ability to use a human form/disguise/illusion.

[Hurkyl]

I think the first thing I'd do if playing the current version of KiFe is shift to fox form, to take advantage of speed/stealth/EV with no downside. I'm not sure if that counts as a good or bad thing. Maybe allowing this (or even starting them in fox form) would be enough compensation for them to have the lower elemental aptitudes.

That's a good point. Unlike a physical start, mages come out of the gate with the same AC a player gets in fox form. So having them be stuck with -3 would be a good balance since by level 3 chances are they have found leather or aux equips to make the FF AC actually a detriment

It could be useful on physical starts too -- if you go the unarmed combat route, then you can use the EV bonus for defense early on, and switch to humanoid only after picking up enough good armor.

[Hurkyl]

I don't think gaining aptitudes from leveling is interesting. I don't think it affects skill training decisions at all. It only means gaining exp faster.
Also the 1st biggest problem is real.

I think it's quite a bit different. Its features include:

• It allows a race to have specialized characters without pigeonholing them into a particular specialization; e.g. compare with minotaur or deep elf.
• You have to choose somewhat between specialization and diversification; adding +6 aptitude to a couple skills would let you train them to high levels quickly, but adding +3 to a lot of skills may well be more efficient in the long run.
• Branching out into a lot of skills becomes very expensive, either costing a lot of skill points due to bad aptitudes or having you spend a very limited resource

A sample consequence is that a Ki warrior type might be more encouraged than most to go with EV-based defenses for half the game to reduce the number of skills that need augmented. A KiIE would have to deliberate whether it's worth investing tails in secondary schools of magic, or put most of the skill points into Ice. A KiWz is in quite a bind, and might even just want to dump everything in spellcasting. (particularly if it starts with +1 aptitude as in the current draft)

Also, as currently written, the race has the odd quirk of gaining experience levels more quickly at the beginning, but (likely) gaining skill levels more rapidly late, which I think is a more favorable development curve. If the race has enough penalties, then exploiting the curve to make up for them could make for an interesting challenge.

Also, don't forget numbers can change too. The initial aptitudes could be made worse if they aren't currently bad enough to make for a qualitatively different experience. The tail benefit could be lowered to +2 (maximum of three uses per skill) or bumped up to +4. Or some combination thereof

[Wahaha]

I don't think gaining aptitudes from leveling is interesting. I don't think it affects skill training decisions at all. It only means gaining exp faster.
Also the 1st biggest problem is real.

I think it's quite a bit different. Its features include:

• It allows a race to have specialized characters without pigeonholing them into a particular specialization; e.g. compare with minotaur or deep elf.
• You have to choose somewhat between specialization and diversification; adding +6 aptitude to a couple skills would let you train them to high levels quickly, but adding +3 to a lot of skills may well be more efficient in the long run.
• Branching out into a lot of skills becomes very expensive, either costing a lot of skill points due to bad aptitudes or having you spend a very limited resource

An already existing race that allows specialized characters without pigeonholing them into a particular spec is Human. The difference between human and kitsune is that kitsune would have bad aptitudes in skills that they're not training anyway.

I may be biased because to me the playstyle where one trains a bunch of random skills to 10 and then spends 5 minutes on each fight is incomprehensible. For that kind of playstyle, there could be interesting choices to make on what skills to boost. Even then, if you train every skill to a similar level it doesn't matter which one you boost (just pick the one you're going to be training for the near future).
But "normal" characters train 4, maybe 5 skills significantly. So you would just boost those skills and be done with it, and you'd be playing nearly the same thing as a human, aside from other kitsune quirks.

A KiIE deciding whether to boost ice or a secondary school is solved like this: you decide what skill levels you want in ice and secondary schools. Then you take a calculator and calculate which skill boost saves you the most exp (it's most likely the one you will be training to the higher level because of how exp scales)
A KiWz for the first boost would boost conj or a weapon skill I think. I'd have to play it to find out how skill boost timing and training timings interact. For the 2nd boost it's definitely weapon skill, and 3rd boost is probably dodging. Ok the choices can differ, especially if you pick Vehumet or Sif, but it's not that hard to decide what to boost even with Wz, possibly the hardest class for these decisions.
If you're playing any of the melee classes there's hardly any thought involved, just pick any of weapon skill, dodging, armor, fighting, you're done. Any elementalist - pick conj or the elemental school. If you want to switch to melee later then boost a weapon skill at lvl 9 and then follow the melee class guide.

[Hurkyl]

An already existing race that allows specialized characters without pigeonholing them into a particular spec is Human.

Sure, in the same sense that choosing Minotaur allows you to play a blaster mage.

I'm pretty sure the idea here is that the kitsune's aptitudes would actually support the chosen specialization, whereas a human's aptitudes merely don't provide a obstacle. (both meant in relation to other race choices, of course)

I may be biased because to me the playstyle where one trains a bunch of random skills to 10 and then spends 5 minutes on each fight is incomprehensible.

... Huh?

But "normal" characters train 4, maybe 5 skills significantly.

Four skills are already too much for kitsunes under level 24 to be fully focused on.

Also, I don't believe the claim -- except maybe as it relates to laziness. Even a fairly one-dimensional character like a MiBe can reasonably have a significant amount of investment in all of Fighting, melee weapon, ranged weapon, Dodging, Armour, Shields, Evocation, Stealth, and a second weapon class if drops suggest it. Any less is either because of a decision to ignore one for the sake of others (e.g. shield/stealth) or laziness (dealing with weapon swapping).

A KiIE deciding whether to boost ice or a secondary school is solved like this: you decide what skill levels you want in ice and secondary schools. Then you take a calculator and calculate which skill boost saves you the most exp (it's most likely the one you will be training to the higher level because of how exp scales)

You're answering the wrong question (also, you formulated the question wrong). Sure, once you've decided on specific targets, you can solve for the most efficient way to get there, but there is still the question of what the targets should be. Making this decision appears to be different for Kitsunes than for other races; for most races, focusing on enabling a particular spell quickly only costs skill points and doesn't impair their ability to train for other spells.

And there's still the question of how to balance magic training versus weapons and defenses; the divide between branching out into melee and focusing on being a blaster mage is much wider for a kitsune than for other races.

If you're playing any of the melee classes there's hardly any thought involved, just pick any of weapon skill, dodging, armor, fighting, you're done.

I already pointed out there's more to it than that, since if you follow up your choices, how you assign to tails to dodging/armor/weapon skill amounts to a decision between using EV-based, AC-based, or offense-based defenses. (and you couldn't maximize all of them until lvl 18 in the current draft, if that's even actually what you want to do)

[Tiktacy]

I can understand not liking the mechanic, but the hyperbole is ridiculous. On the flavor aspect, I'll presume it's just a lack of knowledge so I'll explain. Whereas a vampire is humanoid and in the occasional mythos has the ability to turn into a bat, a kitsune is first and foremost a fox, usually with the ability to use a human form/disguise/illusion.

I still stand by what I said. I am well aware of the kitsune mythos, but its a lot more lackluster flavorwise than bat form. Bat form is integrated into the satiation system of the vampire race, its purpose in the game is the same as in the lore(its meant for escape), and it is just over all a better implementation of lore no matter how you look at it.

With that said, I find it surprising that you called my "hyperbole" "ridiculous", I would like to hear what exactly you thought hyperbole because I still cannot discern any redeeming qualities of fox form.

[Wahaha]

Sure, in the same sense that choosing Minotaur allows you to play a blaster mage.
I'm pretty sure the idea here is that the kitsune's aptitudes would actually support the chosen specialization, whereas a human's aptitudes merely don't provide a obstacle. (both meant in relation to other race choices, of course)

No? Minotaurs are pigeonholed into melee. Humans are not pigeonholed into anything.
Humans are not restricted in their skill training. Kitsune are not restricted in their skill training. The fact that kitsune have higher aptitudes than humans doesn't change the level of "skill training freedom". They're both still the same. You train what you want because you're not influenced by unbalanced racial apts.

Four skills are already too much for kitsunes under level 24 to be fully focused on.

If they have -2 apts everywhere and gain +2 every 3 skill levels, at lvl 12 they can have an aptitude of 0 in 4 skills which equates them to humans. But in practice you would do something like +4 to weapon +2 dodging +2 fighting and end up with better apts than a human from lvl 6 onwards.

Sure, once you've decided on specific targets, you can solve for the most efficient way to get there, but there is still the question of what the targets should be.

The presence of free exp (+apts) should not affect your skill training decisions, since free exp is just a way to reach those skill targets faster. With a KiIE, you think of the best skill selection you can achieve, and then think of how to get there. You don't think "If I put +apts into skills that I wouldn't normally train, would I end up with something better than optimal build x?" The answer is no. Your build will be worse than optimal build x because you're training skills you wouldn't normally train. And you could have used +apts to achieve optimal build x faster.

Even a fairly one-dimensional character like a MiBe can reasonably have a significant amount of investment in all of Fighting, melee weapon, ranged weapon, Dodging, Armour, Shields, Evocation, Stealth, and a second weapon class if drops suggest it.

The words "reasonably" and/or "significant" are being misused in that sentence.

how you assign to tails to dodging/armor/weapon skill amounts to a decision between using EV-based, AC-based, or offense-based defenses

The exact same kind of decisions that you make with any race. The thought process of "If I add +apts to EV before armor, would it better than adding +apts to armor first?" is the exact same as "If I train EV before armor, would it be better than training armor first?". There's no benefit to training both EV and armor at the same time early in the game. First you put +apts in the one you want to train first and when you're done with the first one you can put +apts in the second one.

[Lasty]

Assuming the aptitude change applies to the skill points you already have (e.g. Draconians), the right choice for which aptitude to boost will always be "the skill you've put the most points into that you want more of". The reason is that the aptitude change effectively would be a skill point multiplier, so you want to multiply the biggest number you have. In 95% of cases, it would be better if the species automatically applied the bonus to your highest skill. It would be even more streamlined to just give the species a potion of XP-style skill point boost every 3 levels.

Assuming the aptitude changes don't apply to the skill points you already have (e.g. manuals) you'd have to actually make choices, but the choices would still be easy: you just pick the lowest-level skill that you plan to train to a high level.

Both options are basically the same as just having better overall aptitudes, because fundamentally skill points are fungible, so the more skill points you save in one skill, the more skill points you have to distribute to other skills. For that reason I don't think this would make for an interesting species.

[Hurkyl]

If they have -2 apts everywhere and gain +2 every 3 skill levels, at lvl 12 they can have an aptitude of 0 in 4 skills which equates them to humans.

Only to humans that concentrate their training to four skills. And the numbers can still be tweaked.

But in practice you would do something like +4 to weapon +2 dodging +2 fighting and end up with better apts than a human from lvl 6 onwards.

A melee character with flat aptitudes shouldn't be training weapon exclusively for the first 8 levels. (also, current draft doesn't allow fighting to be boosted)

The presence of free exp (+apts) should not affect your skill training decisions, since free exp is just a way to reach those skill targets faster.

If you think in those terms, then what you're overlooking is that you don't just get a fixed amount of free experience -- the amount of free experience you get depends on how you set your skill targets.

With a KiIE, you think of the best skill selection you can achieve,

And that's where the interesting strategic decisions are, and how Ki should differ from other races: the best skill selections for Kitsune will generally be less spread out than for other races.

There's no benefit to training both EV and armor at the same time early in the game.

Aside from that whole "don't get killed by enemies" thing. Unless you have particularly imbalanced circumstances (e.g. a robe/leather wearer, dramatically different aptitudes), the cost of skill points goes up rapidly enough you'll generally do better if your training in dodging and armor is more balanced. The optimum probably has some imbalance, but it's not going to be to focus on one exclusively until mid-game.

[Hurkyl]

so the more skill points you save in one skill, the more skill points you have to distribute to other skills. For that reason I don't think this would make for an interesting species.

Like I said to Wahaha, the point is to affect your skill targets. If you pretend your a human, then sure, you just solve for the right tails and your gameplay will feel more like a human but worse*.

But the mechanic, as I envision it, is supposed to push you do things differently. The general advice to characters across the board tends to be "diversify". Casters should** gain some melee proficiency early on. Fighters shouldn't just train your melee weapon up to mindelay; keep up with fighting and defenses too. Everyone should pick up a few cheap levels of stealth. Ignore those lvl 9 spells because it would be cheap to train up a melee weapon. Don't train up for that executioner's axe because you're better off dumping the experience into utility magic or evocations and so forth. The kitsune mechanic should offer discouragement to that sort of strategy, instead making diving deeply into skills more viable.


*: I assume that when properly balanced, things will feel worse.
**: I disagree with how much this is pushed

[Lasty]

So the upside of this species is that it encourages you not to branch out and instead be as narrow and limited as possible, and if you do so you can, say, get a +5 aptitude to UC and get extremely cheap guaranteed access to the game's best weapon, or into Air get Tornado castable at XL 14? Both the narrowness and the abusability sound like problems to me, not selling points.

Aside from the narrow/abusive examples, you're ignoring the fungibility point: if you save a lot of skill points in any one place, you have more skillpoints that you can use for something else, including branching out. Except in the most narrow/absurd cases, saving skill points on whatever skills you're investing the most into means more skill points are freed up for things you didn't boost.

[Hurkyl]

So the upside of this species is that it encourages you not to branch out and instead be as narrow and limited as possible, and if you do so you can, say, get a +5 aptitude to UC and get extremely cheap guaranteed access to the game's best weapon, or into Air get Tornado castable at XL 14? Both the narrowness and the abusability sound like problems to me, not selling points.

That's a problem of balancing the numbers.

Aside from the narrow/abusive examples, you're ignoring the fungibility point: if you save a lot of skill points in any one place, you have more skillpoints that you can use for something else, including branching out. Except in the most narrow/absurd cases, saving skill points on whatever skills you're investing the most into means more skill points are freed up for things you didn't boost.

Translation: if you ignore the possibility of diversifying less than you otherwise would, a mechanic that rewards not diversifying doesn't offer any rewards. I expect there is a fair gap between "offers no reward" and "offers so much reward it's too abusive".

[duvessa]

Aside from the narrow/abusive examples, you're ignoring the fungibility point: if you save a lot of skill points in any one place, you have more skillpoints that you can use for something else, including branching out. Except in the most narrow/absurd cases, saving skill points on whatever skills you're investing the most into means more skill points are freed up for things you didn't boost.

Translation: if you ignore the possibility of diversifying less than you otherwise would, a mechanic that rewards not diversifying doesn't offer any rewards. I expect there is a fair gap between "offers no reward" and "offers so much reward it's too abusive".

Translation: I never learned multiplication in school.

If you want to train one skill to 10, and another skill to 15, increasing the second skill's aptitude will ALWAYS make you reach these targets faster than increasing the first skill's aptitude. This is basic arithmetic.

[PowerOfKaishin]

Translation: I never learned multiplication in school.

If you want to train one skill to 10, and another skill to 15, increasing the second skill's aptitude will ALWAYS make you reach these targets faster than increasing the first skill's aptitude. This is basic arithmetic.

Uh..., not if the two skills are conjurations and invocations, which are -3 and +1 respectively.


Also, the intent was to change apts like Dr does. Unless at zero, a tail changes the value of a skill along with the apt.

[Hurkyl]

If you want to train one skill to 10, and another skill to 15, increasing the second skill's aptitude will ALWAYS make you reach these targets faster than increasing the first skill's aptitude. This is basic arithmetic.

It's more that I passed basic logic, and realized that there are more options to consider that "train one to 10 and the other to 15 and pick one to spend a tail on".

[Hurkyl]

Here are some other scenarios I imagine can arise that I would want to go differently with the tail mechanic.

You've spent tails on your KiFe so that fire/conjuration magic have reasonable aptitude and have just gotten sticky flame available. Do you:

1. Train up to be a reasonable tank that can soak up damage while sticky flame / conjure flame do their jobs, maybe even with a melee weapon to help out
2. Skimp on defenses and push on to fireball to kill problems before they begin

I think popular opinion is that option 1 is best on the typical character. But I want a KiFe who has spent tails on magic to have 2 be the clear winner.

Your KiFe is now through the lair with a lot of tails spent on fire/conjuration magic, and you have fireball, bolt of fire, and a reasonable amount of painfully acquired dodging/fighting. Do you

1. Buff defenses and train up for melee combat to take over a main source of late game damage
2. Train up a moderate amount of defense and begin the push towards fire storm, hoping to have it ready for the third rune, or maybe earlier with brilliance/wizardry/god assist

I again think that 1 is the best on the typical character -- but I want option 2 to be viable on a KiFe whereas it is usually frowned on as being a bad idea for most.

Your KiFe is struggling through the early game with its poor aptitudes. Do you spend your second and third tails on fire and conjuration magic to bump your killdude up from meager to good? Or do you start spending tails on dodging now to get meager defenses and not risk 'wasting' tails on skills that aren't going past around level 10 or 12 in the late game?

[PowerOfKaishin]

Here are some other scenarios I imagine can arise that I would want to go differently with the tail mechanic.

You've spent tails on your KiFe so that fire/conjuration magic have reasonable aptitude and have just gotten sticky flame available. Do you:

1. Train up to be a reasonable tank that can soak up damage while sticky flame / conjure flame do their jobs, maybe even with a melee weapon to help out
2. Skimp on defenses and push on to fireball to kill problems before they begin

I think popular opinion is that option 1 is best on the typical character. But I want a KiFe who has spent tails on magic to have 2 be the clear winner.

Your KiFe is now through the lair with a lot of tails spent on fire/conjuration magic, and you have fireball, bolt of fire, and a reasonable amount of painfully acquired dodging/fighting. Do you

1. Buff defenses and train up for melee combat to take over a main source of late game damage
2. Train up a moderate amount of defense and begin the push towards fire storm, hoping to have it ready for the third rune, or maybe earlier with brilliance/wizardry/god assist

I again think that 1 is the best on the typical character -- but I want option 2 to be viable on a KiFe whereas it is usually frowned on as being a bad idea for most.

Your KiFe is struggling through the early game with its poor aptitudes. Do you spend your second and third tails on fire and conjuration magic to bump your killdude up from meager to good? Or do you start spending tails on dodging now to get meager defenses and not risk 'wasting' tails on skills that aren't going past around level 10 or 12 in the late game?

How high do the aptitudes need to be before pushing for a level 9 spell in a 3 rune isn't an awful idea?

[Lasty]

Increasing aptitudes is just a matter of getting more skill points. Allowing the player to stack the aptitudes just means that the size of the skill point bonus increases as the player plays a more narrow game. Fundamentally this idea is about 1) have more skill points, and 2) rewarding players for playing a more narrow game. 1) is something you can do with normal aptitudes. 2) is actively bad.

[Hurkyl]

Increasing aptitudes is just a matter of getting more skill points. Allowing the player to stack the aptitudes just means that the size of the skill point bonus increases as the player plays a more narrow game. Fundamentally this idea is about 1) have more skill points, and 2) rewarding players for playing a more narrow game. 1) is something you can do with normal aptitudes. 2) is actively bad.

Skill points are not a linear measure of effectiveness. I imagine a well-played Kitsune would have more aptitude-adjusted points in total for a fair amount of the game, but when properly balanced it would still wind up comparable in effectiveness to other races.

The point is not to have more, but different.

[Hurkyl]

How high do the aptitudes need to be before pushing for a level 9 spell in a 3 rune isn't an awful idea?

I'm not sure.

I don't frown on it as much as most, but my current opinion is that getting a level 9 spell really is worth the expense in a 3 rune game on the occasional character -- the problem is not the expense but the risk you take by remaining stagnant during the time when you're training up for it. And maybe partly that blasting penalizes you more often for being lazy/sloppy, so relying so heavily on blasting puts you at risk if you're prone to such things. (also, the risk of starting the training too late so you can't rely on it when you need to)

[Hurkyl]

If you want to train one skill to 10, and another skill to 15, increasing the second skill's aptitude will ALWAYS make you reach these targets faster than increasing the first skill's aptitude. This is basic arithmetic.

It's more that I passed basic logic, and realized that there are more options to consider that "train one to 10 and the other to 15 and pick one to spend a tail on".

Actually, I've seen the line of thinking that prompted this thread of discussion on the forum before, and it's really mystifying (and irritating) how vehemently people believe in it.

e.g. the reaction to noting that Spriggans have low HP and poor fighting aptitude? For many people, it's not "train for ways to live that spriggans are good at" (e.g. evasion, ranged attacks, charms), it's "suck it up and train as much fighting as you would on any other character... and even more to make up for the -30% hp aptitude".

And the same on the opposite side -- people often rag on Spriggans for 'overtraining' Dodging. But at least on that point circumstance people usually acquiece to reason once it's made clear just how cheap and effective it is for spriggans.

[duvessa]

new tavern rule: you are only allowed to talk about skill points if you actually know what they are

Increasing aptitudes is just a matter of getting more skill points.

board warning issued