Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple.


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Post Wednesday, 16th March 2016, 20:07

Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple.

We've been on this trajectory of pairing down start combos and I think there's no real reason for Zealots to exist at all. Is --Be stronger than starting a --Fi and rolling Trog in the Temple? Yes. Is it the strongest background? ...for most races. It's the strongest background NOT because Trog is necessarily the strongest god, but because if you're a race that pairs with Trog well, starting with an excellent early game god is much better than starting an Atheist (ultimately the often proposed "Slime Knight" would be similar in early game since Jiyva is so strong [though rolling jiyva early could have major issues like lack of books and scrolls later]). --CK is a bad class with some history as a challenge class, which -might- be worth keeping. --AK; there's often a claim that it allows new players to "See the Abyss" but I'm not sure that's enough of an anchor for the existence of a start. Lugonu is a fairly strong god that doesn't see much use because altars are only found in the Abyss. I understand this is to make it so players are forced to choose between Wrath and wandering the Abyss and that's cool; I certainly wouldn't say Lugonu altars should be removed from the Abyss; but I would say Jiyva and Lugonu should be normal temple choices like other gods. YES Jiyva is likely a bad choice early, but not as bad as TSO or Xom early; or Chei early for a player who doesn't know how to Chei.

In short Remove --AK and --Be. Put Jiyva and Lugonu in the temple. Hell, put Beogh in the temple while you're at it. Beogh is pretty much a temple god these days anyways, you just have to find a wandering enemy to join instead of an altar.
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Post Wednesday, 16th March 2016, 20:33

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

I'd be all for it, as you have to make some pretty weird and suboptimal decisions to actually have a jivya character in 99% of games, so in many ways jivya is a wasted god. The idea of early power at a constant price in loot is a unique one, it'd be cool for it to be a god that's actually reasonable to play without doing weird things like not taking a god until lair (or even the bottom of slime), or taking a good god with the intention of abandoning for jivya.

Pretty much same deal with lugonu. He doesn't really allow new players to experience the abyss because it's a special case weird abyss, and a level 1 character can't do anything in the abyss anyway (except start scum for a slow enemy to kite to quickly gain a bunch of levels, but I don't think that's worth preserving. Outside of starting with him, or getting a corrupted temple, it's another god that you'd need to either make a very odd decision to get, or by abandoning your current god in desperation to get out of the abyss (But if you can't survive the abyss, can you really survive your current god's wrath?)
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Post Wednesday, 16th March 2016, 23:59

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

I disagree. It's nice to have a couple starts where a player can start toying around with a god straight away, and I just dislike the idea of homogenizing all the gods by putting everyone in the temple. The way Lugonu works is just perfect IMO. Maybe make Lugonu altars a bit more common in the Abyss, though I frankly haven't been in there enough times to be safely able to tell how common they are.

In fact, it's the temple itself that I have more of an issue with, how pretty much every god is available there early on except the niche ones. It makes it almost pointless to have all the other altars lying about in the dungeon. If necessary, ensure that every altar is generated at least once upon game start, but some altars might be all the way down in Dungeon:15 or even further beyond. That way, you would have to make actual decisions (and aren't meaningful decisions the bread and butter of Crawl?) - should I take a suboptimal god early on to help survival (and have to decide between staying with them or switching to an optimal god in exchange for suffering their wrath) or do I try to slog on and hope that my Spriggan Enchanter will find that perfect Gozag altar anytime now (or whatever you consider optimal for your build)? As a compromise, there could be a Temple still with a small, variable number of altars, but not even close to all of them (Like somewhere from 3-6). This smaller Temple could also have a chance to have a Jivya altar, which means an occasional opportunity to sign up for Jivya long before the Slime Pits are found. I think this would be fun - right now, what I see (and experience) is that most characters reach the temple early on, pick their perfect god, and (aside from an occasional switch to a more specialized god for the extended endgame) never deviate from it. Normal dungeon altars only come into play if that optimal god's altar happens to be found before the Temple. With my suggestion, random altar vaults could become exciting once again, instead of "meh, I'll find the correct altar in the Temple anyway".
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 00:16

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

The problem with zealot backgrounds is that "CK that never leaves Xom" is a fun challenge in itself. I don't care much for other zealots, though.

I disagree heavily that every god should be in the Temple, but if it was my decision to make I'd roll "temple" gods randomly each game, so if you aren't lucky you don't get a guaranteed Oka/Trog/whatever altar in D:2-9 at all. But that's just me.

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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 00:29

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

Sar wrote: if it was my decision to make I'd roll "temple" gods randomly each game, so if you aren't lucky you don't get a guaranteed Oka/Trog/whatever altar in D:2-9 at all. But that's just me.

If the goal is for the player to have to roll with what the dungeon throws instead of following the One True Path, then I think this is a good idea.

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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 00:32

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

I mean, you're only hurting yourself if you choose your god pre-game and then ignore opportunities to worship useful gods early on. I don't think being flexible about god choices is something crawl has to enforce, since it's already beneficial anyway.

---

Anyway I think you're going to have a hard time arguing for the removal of AK, since the devteam's reason for AK existing is to show new players the abyss, not to allow access to Lugonu. And CK is (or at least historically was) very popular among new players and doesn't hurt anything by existing.

(Also Jiyva is actually not a bad choice early. Turns out having an instakill attack is pretty strong. The reasons to restrict Jiyva to lategame have nothing to do with power level.)

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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 00:49

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

A surprising amount of people think you need certain gods for certain classes. I mean, if you look at it proportionally, getting to D:9 takes much less time than winning.

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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 05:00

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

I agree with the OP except I think CK and Be have good reasons to exist. Be is introcrawl and CK is a challenge mode.

I don't see why new crawl players need to be introduced to the abyss any more than they do Slime or Hell.

Jiyva, as people have said, is a reasonable choice early on. The gameplay effects of worshipping Jiyva in the temple are more interesting than the effects of waiting until L:8 or M:5 to take her.

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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 05:09

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

I like the idea of cutting back the altar options, forcing you to choose from the altars you find. I'm not even sure it is necessary to guarantee that all dieties exist in a given game. Maybe random altar vaults can be generated through dungeon, and anything that wasn't generated in the dungeon will be placed in the temple, minus one. So one god would not exist at all each game. So there's a good chance that the god you want would be found in the temple or before (maybe 50% chance), but if not, you are forced to choose to go godless until you find what you are looking for (which isn't even guaranteed to happen), or choose a different one. An interesting and meaningful decision that changes each game. The only way to guarantee a god would be to play a zealot. Under this scenario I don't see a great value in removing the zealots, as long as people are still choosing them and playing them.
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 06:56

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

FR: give jellies the ability to convert you to Jiyva, for a price. The price should be high like all your equipment*.

* and all on the current floor and the offer goes off if you leave the level etc.
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 08:07

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

Sar wrote:I disagree heavily that every god should be in the Temple, but if it was my decision to make I'd roll "temple" gods randomly each game, so if you aren't lucky you don't get a guaranteed Oka/Trog/whatever altar in D:2-9 at all. But that's just me.
That was actually the intention for some of us back when gods were added (after Lugonu and Beogh, which were agreed upon to not get a Temple seat). However, even the current concensus (every temple god has a guaranteed overflow altar somewhere in the range D:3-9) was very hard to come by. It took a lot of negotation :)

Given that, I am absolutely against adding Lugonu or Jiyva to the Temple.

By the way, it is possible to change the current behaviour continuously: instead of a drastic change (like not guaranteeing gods), one could simply modify the range. Say, from D:3-9 to D:5-10. But I expect opposition to that, too.

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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 08:48

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

dpeg wrote:
Sar wrote:I disagree heavily that every god should be in the Temple, but if it was my decision to make I'd roll "temple" gods randomly each game, so if you aren't lucky you don't get a guaranteed Oka/Trog/whatever altar in D:2-9 at all. But that's just me.
That was actually the intention for some of us back when gods were added (after Lugonu and Beogh, which were agreed upon to not get a Temple seat). However, even the current concensus (every temple god has a guaranteed overflow altar somewhere in the range D:3-9) was very hard to come by. It took a lot of negotation :)

Given that, I am absolutely against adding Lugonu or Jiyva to the Temple.

By the way, it is possible to change the current behaviour continuously: instead of a drastic change (like not guaranteeing gods), one could simply modify the range. Say, from D:3-9 to D:5-10. But I expect opposition to that, too.

If the goal is to encourage more variety in god use you should not move the upper bound (currently d:2) deeper in the dungeon, since that just encourages waiting for temple (d:4-7) and probably finding your god there; it just makes players play godless for a longer amount of time (since you're not going to find those d:2 useful-god altars any more). Expanding the lower bound does encourage more variety.
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 09:12

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

What crate said. Expand the range to D:2-15 and put only like 5 altars in the Temple imo.
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 09:28

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

Totally against adding L/J to temple. They add not only a well respected and beloved element of flavor to the crawl pantheon, but they represent variety in it as well.

However, I do agree that Be and the zealot category needs to go. I say add CK and AK to the adventurer class(they can pretty easily be reflavored and are both interesting enough to have a place). Be is, in my opinion, is among one of the biggest misleading aspects of crawls learning curve and can easily cause newer players to play the game developing a variety of bad habbits that will cause later non-Berserker games to be extremely frustrating. I speak from experience on this subject. Now, you could make the argument that this will still happen since newer players will follow trog anyway, but unlike the status quo, newbies will have to actually earn their way into the early game far enough to actually find a trog alter before they can even START following him, which lends itself well to teaching them the importance of lots of essential crawl tactics that can be ignored as a berserker.

On top of that, there is nothing especially interesting about trog as a starter god, his only real gimmick is no magic conduct, and that actually ends up creating even more linear and uninteresting gameplay. To me, ely was a far more interesting starter god than trog will ever be, and even created the ability for players to do an interesting challenge conduct of pacifism(similar to abyssal knights "Abyss only" conduct, although probably more interesting).
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 11:44

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

crate: Yes, good point about the lower end. So I'll suggest moving the deeper end to D:11, perhaps it'll get some traction. (There can still be an earlier, random altar to a missing temple god.)

Regarding zealots: I am very much in favour of AK (this is sort of my brainchild, so I am biased). No idea how many players actually use this to get to know the Abyss, but Crawl certainly has enough players for this to happen sometimes. I also think it's really cool that you can start in the Abyss. (The reason above for not starting in other areas is not good, because there is no other mechanic like distortion that forces you to some other branch.)

CK is a given, fun to many and an interesting challenge on its own. I'd always defend this.

On Be: we've long seen Berserkers as easy mode. I agree it is overshadowing the competition, and piety gain with Trog is easy enough that, for a newbie, reaching an early altar/temple and picking Trog there should be a headstart, too. So I actually wouldn't mind removing Be anymore (and then deal with "zealots" perhaps as Tiktacy says). It would require redoing the tutorial, though. Effort!

Let's keep Jiyva and Lugonu out of the Temple: I really like the possibility of having gods that are less accessible. This is a lot of flavour, but I think a slimmer temple is also worth something. And it makes the occasional early J/L altar a rare, hence more interesting option. Perhaps we should think about whether some other god can be "minored" :)
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 13:29

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

dpeg wrote:And it makes the occasional early J/L altar a rare, hence more interesting option.

Sure, but aren't they too rare? I have no idea what the probabilities are so maybe it's just confirmation bias, but to me, early Jiyva practically does not exist.

Perhaps we should think about whether some other god can be "minored" :)

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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 13:44

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

dpeg: The AK start doesn't provides any meaningful information about how to survive Abyss. Lugonu is a great god with a lot of flavor, but to me the AK start doesn't add to it. One more or less just leaves.

About less accessible gods: it's true they add a lot of flavor, but in practice it just means the gods get followed less than they otherwise would. If crawl were a game where it was a reasonable choice to go godless or to switch gods before extended, then these later altars might be an interesting choice. As it is, it just means I have to play suboptimally to go Jiyva or roll an AK to go Lugonu.

Also, Jiyva's and especially Lugonu's specially-placed altars would still have a reason to exist if they were temple gods. Jiyva's gives you a free rune, Lugonu's an Abyss exit, at the cost of god wrath, same as ever.
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 13:48

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

If AK were removed as a start, Lugonu altars could be replaced by early portals to AK-abyss (guaranteed Lugonu altar nearby).

But! In general, I dont think zealot starts are fundamentally worse than book starts. Or any other backgrounds, for that matter. Gods are effectively "gear" and I don't think starting with Trog is conceptually different than starting with the Book of Frost, or nets, or a shield. Backgrounds are different, and I think the current set is pretty OK.
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 13:51

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

There are so many gods now (well, maybe always was) that putting them all in the same bracket of spawn locations is just so messy and overwhelming. Finding alter to Jivya & Lugonu later in a game is far more interesting and I don't really care that they are inaccessible since it make it more meaningful to join them, whether its to stay atheist until lair or stumbling across corrupted temple.

I'd actually want more alters in post temple areas as to declutter the current roster of gods in and spilling out of temple.

Or just cull some gods.

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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 14:48

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

An early creature that banishes you to the AK abyss might be an interesting way to teach players about banishment and allow players to worship Lugonu without the AK start. I forget if the lugonu abyss spawns regular exits though - honestly not sure how that works.
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 14:55

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

all before wrote:As it is, it just means I have to play suboptimally to go Jiyva

Given how easily one can transition from Fedhas to Jiyva, this is only true for undead.
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 15:38

Re:

Turukano wrote:
dpeg wrote:By the way, it is possible to change the current behaviour continuously: instead of a drastic change (like not guaranteeing gods), one could simply modify the range. Say, from D:3-9 to D:5-10.

dpeg wrote:But I expect opposition to that, too.

Me too.

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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 16:23

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

I find Jivya's inaccessibility frustrating, but I like Lugonu's and Beogh's isolation because it makes Lugonu a risk/reward choice and Beogh more flavorful. For people who tend to die in Lair branches, Jivya is just so suboptimal to ever plan for. I think the only time I've ever actually worshiped was due to a faded altar (which is probably my single favorite addition to this game.)
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 16:47

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

Personally, I would remove the temple altogether, and guarantee all altars occur between levels 2 and say 10 or so.
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 18:35

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

The key problem with minor gods is a lot of the temple gods have wrath so bad that they are likely to kill you straight up if you try to leave unless you have a lot of escape spells/items or are XL27 (Oka, TSO [if you go to evil], Vehu and Trog especially) and the current late-game gods, offer nothing PRACTICALLY powerful enough to justify switching. The only minor exception to this is trying to escape the Abyss. Period, that's it. Jiyva is less powerful than most temple gods (because the items cost is particularly high, mutations are that good and slimify is too expensive to spam) combined with the fact it's not found until late pretty much means almost no one worships it; except the once when you're curious. Lugonu, either you started as an AK or you got sent to the Abyss early and panicked (and probably died because most temple god's Wrath (again) is way too powerful to leave early for any reason at all).
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 18:37

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

Actually if Jiyva was in the temple, I -still- don't think it would get that much use; because (though yes Slimify is powerful)...anyone trying it that early would likely find the item cost (especially lack of spellbooks and consumables) way too high.
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 20:11

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

dude, like, have you ever had a early jiyva run? So long you dont autoexplore like a jackass or skip turns for no reason you will get loot almost normally, not that you will need to, there are also shops in the game, randarts, etc.
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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 21:00

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

What's autoexploring like a jackass? Pressing 'o' until the level is fully explored? I think that's what most new players do (and I assume most not new players as well).
But I have followed jiyva before, and you do still get a decent amount of loot.

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Post Thursday, 17th March 2016, 21:48

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

  Code:
<Sequell> 15 milestones for crate (god.worship=jiyva): 3x Lair:6, 2x Lair:8, 2x D:5, D:6, D:2, Lair:7, D:20, D:4, D:26, D:9, Slime:6

early jiyva is fine power-wise, but there are still good arguments for not allowing jiyva early on (actually, if anything early jiyva is too strong)

(Also add an additional d:3 jiyva worship from a dieselrobin account I played on.)

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Post Friday, 18th March 2016, 01:32

Re: Re:

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:
dpeg wrote:But I expect opposition to that, too.
Crush it. Like you crushed mountain dwarves.
The problem is not player opposition.

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Post Saturday, 19th March 2016, 18:15

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

I am in favor of two (and just two) tweaks to Crawl's current god setup.

1 - either guarantee a Jiyva altar on the slime stairs, or make Jiyva altars spawn in Slime:6 and nowhere else. Depending on your mental state, the current setup either makes it way too easy to convert early (wow I don't have to dive slime... that wasn't challenging at all!), or makes it disappointingly hard to convert early (ugh, I didn't get the altar, now I have to risk the dive!!) Just keep it the same way for every game.

2 - I love the Ecumenical Temple, but I'm getting a little salty about layouts that only place 6 gods. After all, it's not very "ecumenical" if less than one third of the gods in the game are represented. IMO the temple should always have 50% or more of the altars.
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Post Sunday, 20th March 2016, 00:08

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

elmdor: That limit of 6 is from back when there were fewer temple gods, perhaps only 12 or 13 (I forget). Maybe the limit should be increased a bit...

Regarding the Jiyva altars, I at least twice proposed something very similar (guaranteed J altar on Slime entrance or on Slime:1), but that idea got no traction. Sorry!
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Post Sunday, 20th March 2016, 10:13

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

dpeg wrote:Regarding the Jiyva altars, I at least twice proposed something very similar (guaranteed J altar on Slime entrance or on Slime:1), but that idea got no traction. Sorry!

That sounds like a fine idea. What were the complaints?
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Post Sunday, 20th March 2016, 10:37

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

I would love to play a fire elementalist, necromancer, or enchanter with support from Lugonu. But instead I have to play a generic melee character and rely on random book drops if I want to worship her. I'm in full support of lugonu being a temple god. It makes her much more versatile, rather than a choice you only ever make before the game begins (I've never switched to her to escape the abyss.)

Sar

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Post Sunday, 20th March 2016, 15:42

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

I did it 2 or 3 times. I think I've even won at least one (FeCK).
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Post Sunday, 20th March 2016, 15:51

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

the only issue I see with making Lugonu ecumenical is that if you unintentionally wield a distortion weapon early on, you can bypass the risk of unwielding it by worshipping Lugonu, and god choice has impact on your game beyond wielding a distortion weapon all the time. Though if distortion was not styled as a trap, e.g. you got a warning and a chance to stop wielding, this would not be a problem.

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Post Sunday, 20th March 2016, 17:10

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

pubby wrote:
dpeg wrote:Regarding the Jiyva altars, I at least twice proposed something very similar (guaranteed J altar on Slime entrance or on Slime:1), but that idea got no traction. Sorry!

That sounds like a fine idea. What were the complaints?
Basically "it's not necessary". I will try again some time. This is not really urgent, despite urgent-sounding threads like this :)
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Post Monday, 21st March 2016, 05:23

Re: Remove Remaining Zealot Starts put L and J in the Temple

if the only Jiyva altar is on Slime:6 you can dive without fighting anything, and distract TRJ so you can get to the altar and make everything neutral. You may need a few consumables to pull it off but it is exciting and different from other scenarios Crawl lets you get into, and it only makes sense if there is no other Jiyva altar. Bonus points if you polymorph TRJ before converting because the resulting TRJ does not turn neutral when you convert.

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