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Or is it intended behavior? The whole flavour of Confusion canceling normal SH makes sense, but SH from amulets of reflection? Not really. Unsure if it's a bug (would have reported it if I was sure).

i think it's fine that it does for consistency reasons, "SH is canceled by confusion" is a simple rule, "SH is canceled by confusion but you can keep some of it if you wear a specific amulet" sounds unnecessarily exception-y.

just my 2c.

Except that the SH from the amulet comes with no skill investment on your part. Extrinsic SH ought not go away when you are confused IMO.

Does that happen to bone plates SH as well?

Good example, Sar, that 's exactly what I'm talking about. don't know of any other extrinsic SH sources though.

Divine shield and formerly condensation shield.

Qazlal's piety bonus.

SH is like, sort-of EV with some shield-flavored limitations. The fact that those limitations don't make much sense on non-shields is a consequence of adding other sources of SH and should have been considered then. I don't think making some SH work differently from other SH is any more intuitive. The weird, unintuitive thing is what it really means for non-shields to add SH. Do shields still face penalties for multiple hits in one round? If so, that's even less intuitive, and can't even be displayed in the ui if you want to make an exception.

johlstei wrote:SH is like, sort-of EV with some shield-flavored limitations. The fact that those limitations don't make much sense on non-shields is a consequence of adding other sources of SH and should have been considered then. I don't think making some SH work differently from other SH is any more intuitive. The weird, unintuitive thing is what it really means for non-shields to add SH. Do shields still face penalties for multiple hits in one round? If so, that's even less intuitive, and can't even be displayed in the ui if you want to make an exception.

This is a very good point. Flavor-wise, the non-shield sources of SH seem to be flavored around things that block/deflect enemy attacks rather than helping you dodge them. But you're right, gameplay-wise the main difference between SH and EV is that SH has mechanics flavored around the fact that blocking attacks requires physically holding up a shield to block them (difficulty blocking multiple attacks per turn, SH going away when you're paralyzed) which doesn't make any sense for SH granted by bone plates, or magical amulets, or supper strong divine winds (or whatever Qazlal's SH is flavored as).

Probably the most important restriction shields face compared to EV is the inability to block bolts/breath. Seriously limits their performance compared to EV.

le_nerd wrote:Probably the most important restriction shields face compared to EV is the inability to block bolts/breath. Seriously limits their performance compared to EV.

Not really and you do get to block lcs and ood, the most important restriction is you do not get to use 2-handers.

SH and shields are two different things. Especially since this thread is talking about SH from amulets. SH doesn't prevent wielding 2 handers, shields do.

dowan wrote:SH and shields are two different things. Especially since this thread is talking about SH from amulets. SH doesn't prevent wielding 2 handers, shields do.

Yeah but SH is just like EV with some shield-flavored seasoning. If you remove the things that are unique about SH currently, you get items that add to a second pool of EV. At that point, they may as well just grant EV. As I see it, the shield-themed effects are the only reason non-shield sources of SH exist.

edit: vvv ahh okay, I gotcha

Yeah, I agree with you. I was just addressing Lacuenta's comment about losing access to 2 handers, which wasn't really relevant to this particular discussion of SH.

I'd say it makes sense to have sources of SH that don't come from a physical shield (Qazlal, bony plates, amulets, etc.) stick around even if you're incapacitated, but I'll also understand if the devs don't feel that adding in fiddly little bits of code is worth the special-casing; it seems Dungeon Crawl has been moving away from special cases in quite a few areas since I've started playing.

dowan wrote:Yeah, I agree with you. I was just addressing Lacuenta's comment about losing access to 2 handers, which wasn't really relevant to this particular discussion of SH.

le_nerd wrote:Probably the most important restriction shields face compared to EV is the inability to block bolts/breath. Seriously limits their performance compared to EV.

emphasis mine.

Even in the context of SH from other sources, SH is almost as good and at times preferable to EV as was what I meant by it blocking orb etc.

Anyway agree that SH from amulets plates should stay when confused, since especially in the case of amulets/god abbilities it's a magical source of shielding(but this argument is solely based on flavor).
Otoh one could say you're to confused to use the amulet in the right way/Qazlal can't protect you very well when you're shambling around drunkenly, or something a long that line.

adozu wrote:i think it's fine that it does for consistency reasons, "SH is canceled by confusion" is a simple rule, "SH is canceled by confusion but you can keep some of it if you wear a specific amulet" sounds unnecessarily exception-y.

just my 2c.

Doesn't the same happen to EV while paralysed? You lose most of it but you keep some some from your racial size bonus or the Ds repulsion field mut (but oddly not +EV items).

Maybe paralysis, petrification, confusion, etc. just shouldn't affect your EV or SH at all. You keep your regular EV when you're slowed, weighed down with 200 large rocks, frozen, slowly stumbling through water, bleeding out of every orifice, caught in a net (but not a web because ???), or sleeping, and your EV usually goes up when you turn into a fungus. I don't think it would be any more counterintuitive to keep your EV and SH when paralysed or climbing stairs.

duvessa wrote:Maybe paralysis, petrification, confusion, etc. just shouldn't affect your EV or SH at all. You keep your regular EV when you're slowed, weighed down with 200 large rocks, frozen, slowly stumbling through water, bleeding out of every orifice, caught in a net (but not a web because ???), or sleeping, and your EV usually goes up when you turn into a fungus. I don't think it would be any more counterintuitive to keep your EV and SH when paralysed or climbing stairs.

You know, I have to agree, in this case. Also because EV getting nuked by paralysis, makes paralysis a lot more deadly to EV characters than AC ones (normally harmless monster kills you in a round of paralysis (EV Char) vs. normally harmless monster hits you 4 times for a total of 15 damage during paralysis (AC Char)).

Yes, making status effects not remove your defenses is probably a good gameplay change. Losing EV/SH is probably the biggest problem with paralysis in crawl right now.

I thought it might be harder to argue for because of the flavour but then minmay helpfully pointed a bunch of counterexamples so I don't have that concern any more.

I was baffled to find out that SH is reduced by multiple blocks in the same turn and annulled by confusion. After all, your EV isn’t affected by those things. EV isn’t even flavored as evasion anywhere other than its name. When X fails to hit Y, the game doesn’t tell you “Y dodges X”, the game tells you “X misses Y”. That’s why it makes some sense that spells and thrown items can miss even enemies that are sleeping (or are they actually just obliviously going about their business, exercising, etc?). EV might as well be HTH, for Hard-To-Hit. Since projectiles don’t care whether you’re actually aiming at a monster, or in its direction, it’s hard to think of EV in any other terms. There’s no natural or intuitive reason statuses should reduce SH but not EV or the other way around (although Grasping Roots reducing only EV is logical) even if it makes sense for some attacks to ignore one of SH or EV.

bcadren wrote:because EV getting nuked by paralysis, makes paralysis a lot more deadly to EV characters

crate wrote: Losing EV/SH is probably the biggest problem with paralysis in crawl right now.

I thought that was the point - ?? I had absolutely no clue that paralysis tanking your EV was largely a flavor consideration. I thought paralysis was specifically an EV-reducing debuff, with the “you can’t take any actions” part there so you can’t kite or blink around until the status wears off... although paralyzing monsters generally have bolt spells or a speed advantage anyway, so it doesn’t matter? In any case, I assumed that any changes to paralysis would sooner let the player move around freely than refrain from decreasing EV. Sure, there are other statuses that tank your defenses, like Corr and Roots, but they are less resistable than most forms of paralysis. If reducing defenses wasn’t the point of paralysis, it would’ve been called Trance or Dance or Panic or Fixation or whatever. Can someone actually explain what paralysis is supposed to do, other than make you take various measures to avoid getting paralyzed?

HardboiledGargoyle wrote:Can someone actually explain what paralysis is supposed to do, other than make you take various measures to avoid getting paralyzed?

That is the sole and entire point of paralyse, yes.

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Is Confusion Canceling Amulets of Reflection a Bug?

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