resting

[radinms]

One of the best tactics at DCSS is... resting, imo.
After combat, you should always rest until full HP/MP except when turn attacks.
I think resting is the most optimal, most no-brainer, and most tedious tactics at DCSS. This unfun tactics completely breaks the game balance.

[ion_frigate]

I'm not sure if you're being serious or not, but this is something the developers have long tried to address, and so far there's no way that even comes close to satisfying everyone. The entire race of Deep Dwarves was conceived as a foray into ways to avoid constant resting.

Frankly, I've never seen any roguelike come up with a good solution to this. To prevent everything the issue you're describing, you have to make health a strategic resource, and this is really hard to fine-tune. Too little health available, and you get a lot of completely un-fun death spirals: if a player, on average, gets back slightly less health per encounter than they lose, this will lead to a slow, painful, inevitable, and entirely predictable death. Too much, and you have what we have now with DD, where resting is simply replaced with other healing activities that, given semi-decent play, are effectively unlimited (which, combined with the advantages that DD were given to "offset" the lack of healing, makes them a ridiculously strong race).

[WildSam]

how pressing 5 is tedious
on tablet mb, you got to switch keyboard pages (or could just put 5 on some unused letter key, there are unused ones right)

Oh, and what if you press autoexpore without full health and mana (given you regenerate them) it rests until you full first?

[crate]

Oh, and what if you press autoexpore without full health and mana (given you regenerate them) it rests until you full first?

I hope this isn't serious. It's actually best to start autoexploring at slightly below full hp assuming you worship a god who has piety decay, and certainly you should not force players who want to use autoexplore to rest to do so.

[radinms]

I've never seen any roguelike come up with a good solution to this

at some roguelike games
-strict food supply, so you can't spend many turns on healing HP
-if more HP then less regeneration, and enemies coming up to you, so you can't rely on no-brainer regeneration
-finite resources that restore current HP is powerful

[WildSam]

I hope this isn't serious.

Thought it obviously should be switchable and customisable option.
May be you can do it with rc already.

[ion_frigate]

-strict food supply, so you can't spend many turns on healing HP

Brogue does this. It's awful, since you spend half your time pressing ssssssssssss at apparent blank spots on the map, as one missed food ration can be a death sentence. There are literally two rings (clairvoyance and awareness) whose main benefit is avoiding this crap.

Granted, to some extent this is an indicator of two other problems with Brogue (that active searching exists, and that every level fits into the same footprint). But it also points to a deeper problem with extremely limited food: if the supply isn't in an incredibly obvious place all the time, it forces the player to explore every level fully, which is boring. But if the supply is somehow guaranteed (e.g. you automatically get a ration on entering a level), then it becomes gameable, particularly with Crawl's infinite and optional levels.

-finite resources that restore current HP is powerful

I agree. If a resource can sustain your health throughout the entire game, then a concentrated use of said resource will be very powerful. It's hard to prevent players from being able to do this (like repeatedly zapping the wand of heal wounds that all DD come with).

[archaeo]

There have probably been dozens of threads on this topic, and as far as I know they've all ended with the realization that the system we've got now is probably the least bad system we can hope for in Crawl. There are a ton of things that make it tough, from the game's mixed-together strategic and tactical modes to the fact that the entire game is balanced around the ability to go upstairs and rest up. You'd have to break the game apart and put it back together in order to get it done, and you might as well just create a new roguelike if you're going to make that kind of effort.

But who knows, maybe this will be the thread that cracks the problem.

[dynast]

Resting is a tactic? I consider NOT resting a speedrunning tactic but resting itself is just a procedure. Im getting a little tired of these radinmisms.

[bananaken]

If not resting is a speedrunning tactic then most experienced crawl players are speedrunners since always resting to full wastes a ton of piety with piety decay gods.

[Turukano]

One of the best tactics at DCSS is... resting, imo.
After combat, you should always rest until full HP/MP except when turn attacks.

Two objections have already been made in posts above:

• piety decreases over time (crate)
• the scoring system rewards speedrunners (dynast)

And there's a third point concerning resting:

• hell effects - but this only affects the optional hell branches

But I've got a question. What if piety would decrease faster?

You'll lose on average one Piety point every 320 turns [with Okawaru]

Which impact would have (e.g.) 10% faster piety decay? How many percent would be necessary to make resting a bit less of a no-brainer?

[Croases]

Which impact would have (e.g.) 10% faster piety decay? How many percent would be necessary to make resting a bit less of a no-brainer?

People would rest just as often and endure the lower piety, I think. If things got to the point where you'd lose all piety and be excommunicated if you kept resting, they would play without gods (or go Makhleb I guess).

A god that allows you to initiate every fight at 100% (or near-100%) HP is better than most of the Crawl gods put together.

[Chicken]

A better "5" would be good. Resting is an obvious tactic, so rather than remove it, make it as unobtrusive as possible. That means you shouldn't risk wasting 99 turns if you hit "5" at full by accident. A customizable setting to "rest until X%" would be nice -- you could hit 5 once to rest to 70% for casual travel, hit it again to get up to full if you're seriously worried, and if you hit it a third time, nothing happens. Oh, and you should have an option to automatically cast regen while resting so you don't have to do it manually.

[dynast]

If not resting is a speedrunning tactic then most experienced crawl players are speedrunners since always resting to full wastes a ton of piety with piety decay gods.

That seems like something only a bad player would do. Its a stupidly greedy behavior that can end up costing you more than the piety for resting, including your life. The majority of the gods reduce you piety by 1 every 320 turns, so you are going to lose more piety auto exploring than resting.

[edgefigaro]

You have to be incredibly knowledgeable of crawl to develop strategies based around not resting. It affects how you explore. Resting is most important when o-tab is the way you play.

[ydeve]

This unfun tactics completely breaks the game balance.

On the contrary, the game is balanced around resting after fights. Not resting is a special challenge, and is called speedrunning.

[bananaken]

You have to be incredibly knowledgeable of crawl to develop strategies based around not resting. It affects how you explore. Resting is most important when o-tab is the way you play.

It's really not that complicated though..? Let's say you're a troll/vine stalker or have a regen ego from equipment: just let yourself regen as you press 'o' instead of pressing '5', and consider pressing '5' if the area is dangerous enough or you can't retreat easily. The game has enough popcorn that pressing 'o' is a reasonable option most of the time. You're now getting extra piety by being a little more aggressive.

Even with base regeneration, what crate suggested (auto-exploring slightly below full HP) helps a lot in reducing unnecessary piety decay.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

When I first started playing Crawl I was like "wut - you just regenerate all by yourself? you don't even have to do anything like eat or sleep or use medkits, to regenerate? that's so cheap!" Then I saw what the rest of the game was like, and it all made perfect sense. Now I don't understand anyone that has played the game and still says resting is a bad mechanic. Food clock and monster spawning and piety decay are wonky though.

[carbonbasedlifeform]

As long as players who abuse '5' button won't land into top100 scoring , I'll be happy. Nothing against 'bad scorers' or ' I-don't-give-a-f**-about-score'rs but man... resting has only one negative impact ( which is final score) and I think its completely fine as it is.

[Rast]

FR: Increase out-of-combat regen rate by a lot.

[Sar]

The problem: out-of-combat state would be spoilery and game-able.

[edgefigaro]

You have to be incredibly knowledgeable of crawl to develop strategies based around not resting. It affects how you explore. Resting is most important when o-tab is the way you play.

It's really not that complicated though..? Let's say you're a troll/vine stalker or have a regen ego from equipment: just let yourself regen as you press 'o' instead of pressing '5', and consider pressing '5' if the area is dangerous enough or you can't retreat easily. The game has enough popcorn that pressing 'o' is a reasonable option most of the time. You're now getting extra piety by being a little more aggressive.

Even with base regeneration, what crate suggested (auto-exploring slightly below full HP) helps a lot in reducing unnecessary piety decay.

What happens when you are a felid? A spriggan? Or just the generic case a human? In your case of a troll, you have to have a very good sense of how powerful your character is relative toward the area (as you are very strong on d1 and get progressively weaker until dragon armor+ shield.)

I stand by my point of being knowledgeable about crawl before not resting to full becomes a viable strat.

[bananaken]

What happens when you are a felid? A spriggan? Or just the generic case a human? In your case of a troll, you have to have a very good sense of how powerful your character is relative toward the area (as you are very strong on d1 and get progressively weaker until dragon armor+ shield.)

I stand by my point of being knowledgeable about crawl before not resting to full becomes a viable strat.

If you can correctly assess whether you should engage, stall or retreat from a fight with monsters in any part of the game (which is an essential skill), you're just using that same knowledge to determine if you're willing to explore at a certain amount of health.

I agree that a certain amount of knowledge is required, but there's nothing particularly special about pressing 'o' without full health: you have to make similar decisions all the time, be it through fights, chasing timed portals, being in the Abyss, etc.

edit: I really don't have any well constructed arguments to make other than expressing personal experience, so I think it's best to just try it, IMO. It's really straightforward with innate fast regeneration, at least (just avoid like, auto-exploring with 5HP or something extreme).

[dynast]

Until you meet Rupert.

[ydeve]

Autoexploring at half hp is ok until it isn't.

[Tiktacy]

I actually like resting after battle. It gives you a moment to reflect on what you do next and creates a certain level of pacing in the game as to not overload the player with constant back-to-back action.

It really isn't even tedious, it takes only a second and 0 concentration to do it. I've played DD's before and I know the difference between crawl with resting and crawl without, and honestly the difference is not that noticeable.

[edgefigaro]

What happens when you are a felid? A spriggan? Or just the generic case a human? In your case of a troll, you have to have a very good sense of how powerful your character is relative toward the area (as you are very strong on d1 and get progressively weaker until dragon armor+ shield.)

I stand by my point of being knowledgeable about crawl before not resting to full becomes a viable strat.

If you can correctly assess whether you should engage, stall or retreat from a fight with monsters in any part of the game (which is an essential skill), you're just using that same knowledge to determine if you're willing to explore at a certain amount of health.

It is actually one more level of threat assessment removed. Assessing the threat of a monster when it comes into vision is much more straightforward than assessing the potential threat of exploring the black on any given floor.

[bananaken]

It is actually one more level of threat assessment removed. Assessing the threat of a monster when it comes into vision is much more straightforward than assessing the potential threat of exploring the black on any given floor.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree then, since I will just repeat myself at this rate, but I'll reiterate: give it a try, you may not find it as complex as you think.

[radinms]

"One of the best tactics is luring. it is cheap cost action so you should always do that when not turn attacks. This unfun tactics completely destroys the game balance. "
-- everyone except many Japanese agree.

"One of the best tactics is resting. You should always do that until full HP/MP. This unfun tactics completely destroys the game balance."
-- everyone except me disagreed.

Any difference on luring and resting?
Both are same because they spend many turns for safety.
If you say "resting is ok because of being bad score", you should also say "luring is ok because of being bad score".

[ydeve]

"One of the best tactics is luring. it is cheap cost action so you should always do that when not turn attacks. This unfun tactics completely destroys the game balance. "
-- everyone except many Japanese agree.

"One of the best tactics is resting. You should always do that until full HP/MP. This unfun tactics completely destroys the game balance."
-- everyone except me disagreed.

Any difference on luring and resting?
Both are same because they spend many turns for safety.
If you say "resting is ok because of being bad score", you should also say "luring is ok because of being bad score".

Yes, there are multiple differences.

Luring:
Takes dangerous encounters and trivializes them.
The game is not designed around luring. In fact, there are (unsuccessful) measures in place to reduce how powerful it is (noise).
Is tedious and takes a ton of key presses.

Resting:
Does not trivialize dangerous encounters. The encounters are designed to be dangerous for a full-hp character.
Thus, the game is designed around players resting.
Is not tedious at all, as it only requires one, at max three key presses.

[radinms]

Does not trivialize dangerous encounters. The encounters are designed to be dangerous for a full-hp character.

-does not trivialize completely, but reduce risk
-non-dangerous enemies when full HP change dangerous enemies if you don't rest

[dynast]

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=18998 If you wanna talk about luring. Trying to compare resting to luring so you can argue about luring(which i will agree, is problematic) while trying to advocate for resting is a very cheap move. If you want to keep disagreeing with people about why resting is problematic you should try to come up with a better proposal to it.

[archaeo]

I doubt that was radinms' goal, dynast, but you're right; I've moved the posts about luring to that thread, and edited the title back to its original state. Let's stick to the topic of resting in this thread, please.

[radinms]

sorry everyone, i wondered why you hated and wanted to punish luring, but don't punish resting. i feeled it was inconsistent.
My real goal is not punishing resting so i will go to the luring topic.

I'm not so sure that luring is the real problem. Any tactic that trades off turn-count for safety is going to be 'optimal' when not speedrunning; in general, these are also going to be more tedious to play, since it means you're spending more turns/time positioning. Similar tactics include pillar-dancing or digging/using kill-holes (those these are still fairly time-efficient.) Also consider that not having as much access to such tactics is part of what makes Nagas and/or Chei interesting to play; it's worth considering whether 'nerfs' to luring end up being an indirect weakening of the severity of slow movement conducts.

[ydeve]

Does not trivialize dangerous encounters. The encounters are designed to be dangerous for a full-hp character.

-does not trivialize completely, but reduce risk
-non-dangerous enemies when full HP change dangerous enemies if you don't rest

Maybe we should remove AC/EV, since while it doesn't trivialize encounters, it can greatly reduce the risk. There are many enemies that aren't dangerous when you can dodge/reduce the damage of their attacks which would be dangerous if you just had to take the hit.