Poison Magic Spell Suggestions

[lethediver]

Hello, after doing lots of initial research, I have concluded that there are a few specific reasons that no high level poison magic spells exist.

• 1) GDs want poison magic to stay poison magic. Branching into alchemy, corrosion, acid, viruses, etc. seems to be discouraged.
  
• 2) GDs want any potential poison magic spell addition to fit within the existing poison magic usage spectrum. Ie, good against living and to a slightly lesser extent demons, mediocre against rP enemies, and useless vs nonliving and undead.
  
• 3) Its hard to think of a spell that fits within that spectrum and yet is actually useful late game.

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I have two proposals for poison spells which I think provide valuable additions to the PM spell set WITHOUT disregarding the above issues.

My first, and I think best, proposal is this:

Lv 9 Poison : Neurotoxin. Gives the Ntox status effect, which coats your fists or weapon (melee or ranged) in an extremely potent toxin. Attacks vs any living or demonic creature cause poison as well as one of the following: slowing, paralysis, confusion, blindness, sleep, weakness. At high spellpower this will reliably effect Pan/Hell lords. The Ntox status effect stacks effectively with weapon/ammo brands and branding spells, but will be removed if you switch weapons.

This is a pure poison spell which is a similar, but much better version of the "branding" spells. It's unique for a high level spell, does something no other spell does (allow you to inflict multiple status effects against very strong monsters by fighting them, even with ranged weapons), and fits will within the poison theme (is anything more poison-y than poisoning your weapon?), without violating any of the, shall we call them, common nitpicks about poison magic proposals:

• It doesn't do a bunch of front loaded direct damage.
• It's not just another conjurations spell in disguise.
• It doesn't use acid or disease.
• It's fairly unique. Ie, no bolts or clouds.
• It's not just a random spell with poison slapped on it. Ie, its thematic.

One weakness I can see is that this is basically "make any weapon into a blowgun", and blowguns exist. However, I think that's a very small issue, and counterbalanced by the fact that this spell lets you use ANY weapon school (not just throwing) to synergize with your poison magic, which is something a poisoner really ought to be able to do. It also doesnt use ammo, is likely more accurate than a blowgun, lets you do lots of damage WHILE status-effecting things, lets you do crazy things like Ntox everything with your axe or fire Ntox bolts of penetration, etc.

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I have another proposal as well,

Lv 7 Poison/Summonings : Summon Insects - Summons Emperor Scorpions, Orb Spiders, Jumping Spiders, Ghost Moths, and Moths of Wrath. This is a summoning spell with broad utility, giving the possibility of hitting your enemies with OOD, webbing them, swamping them with invisible moths, or berserking your own allies.

Why is this a good spell addition?

• It's not Yet Another Direct Damage Spell. No bolts or clouds or storms or conjurations-ness.
• No acid or disease.
• Thematic.
• Doesn't completely disregard everything PM is about. (Most of the monsters summoned do poison damage).
• Actually useful.

Adding both these spells would put PM firmly on the level as all the other elemental schools without turning it into something completely different. But, even just adding one would be a good interim solution to make it fairly viable late game.

[ZipZipskins]

Lv 7 Poison/Summonings : Summon Insects - Summons Emperor Scorpions, Orb Spiders, Jumping Spiders, Ghost Moths, and Moths of Wrath. This is a summoning spell with broad utility, giving the possibility of hitting your enemies with OOD, webbing them, swamping them with invisible moths, or berserking your own allies.

Scorpions and spiders are not insects how many times do I have to repeat myself here.

No but I like both of these ideas personally. How long does Ntox last? Also can you stack it with blowguns? It seems like Ntox is really powerful, but I guess there's the fact that it's level 9.

I love the way both proposals are supportive of a hybrid playstyle instead of trying to make high powered murderspells for Poison.

edit: don't summoned Moths of Wrath also berserk enemies? I seem to recall that happening with shadow creatures/summoning scrolls in Zot but maybe I'm misremembering

[lethediver]

Lv 7 Poison/Summonings : Summon Insects - Summons Emperor Scorpions, Orb Spiders, Jumping Spiders, Ghost Moths, and Moths of Wrath. This is a summoning spell with broad utility, giving the possibility of hitting your enemies with OOD, webbing them, swamping them with invisible moths, or berserking your own allies.

Scorpions and spiders are not insects how many times do I have to repeat myself here.

No but I like both of these ideas personally. How long does Ntox last? Also can you stack it with blowguns? It seems like Ntox is really powerful, but I guess there's the fact that it's level 9.

I love the way both proposals are supportive of a hybrid playstyle instead of trying to make high powered murderspells for Poison.

edit: don't summoned Moths of Wrath also berserk enemies? I seem to recall that happening with shadow creatures/summoning scrolls in Zot but maybe I'm misremembering

Good nitpicks. Might have to rename to "Summon Creepy Crawlies" or something similar. And yeah, I'm guessing moths are coded to just berserk whatever monsters are in proximity to it... so we might have to swap that out and put demonic crawlers or tarantellas in instead.

I'd say Ntox stacks with blowguns... blowguns already have a decent chance to status effect things, so I don't see it being too broken. If anything is going to be a balance issue I'd suspect it's penetrating ammo + ntox, or quickblades + ntox. Both could be solved by having Ntox wear off faster the more hits the player dishes out. Something like 10-30 rounds default, based on spellpower, and each hits makes the spell last .5 or 1 round less.

[ydeve]

Ntox has the problem of all lvl9 spells of requiring insane amounts of xp to get castable, plus you need to train another skill as your main killdudes for it to do anything. This basically makes in unusable. I'd lower the spell level at least to 8.

[Sar]

People regularly train two spell schools for Fire Storm and Glaciate. Extended has lots of XP so, why not?

[duvessa]

Because that spell is really, really, really bad?

[lethediver]

Because that spell is really, really, really bad?

Why do you say that?

[lethediver]

Ntox has the problem of all lvl9 spells of requiring insane amounts of xp to get castable, plus you need to train another skill as your main killdudes for it to do anything. This basically makes in unusable. I'd lower the spell level at least to 8.

That'd be fine with me. The levels, etc. are adjustable - the main point of this thread is to determine whether spells LIKE these are good additions to the Poison Magic spell set.

Numbers tweaks are relatively easy to slap on, if the basic ideas are solid.

[Aean]

I like the neurotoxin idea a lot.
Pros:
- It has the variability/randomness to make it interesting (and less of a straight-up guaranteed paralyze or confuse or whatever).
- It gives poison some utility even in the lategame, which I think is important - I can't think of any of the other skills have as sharp a drop in utility as poison magic.
- As you said, it's appropriately thematic; no acid, no disease, etc., and it isn't just a retread of "X, but with poison instead of what it has now."

Cons:
- It treads heavily on blowgun, as you said. But I'd say that could actually work out, especially since the idea behind blowguns is basically "no damage, but powerful toxin that does X." Besides, seems like if anything, blowguns should stop working late-game and poison magic should take their place (Why is ammo more effective than an entire spell school?)

Thoughts:
- Expand the list of random outcomes a little further. Frenzy in particular comes to mind - it fits with the suite of outcomes you're playing with, and it's one of those interesting "could be really good, or really bad" effects.
- Should it do poison as well as the effect, or not? I'm not sure. If so, maybe strong poison? Alternatively, monster gets hit with 1-3 out of your list of effects (including poison), could tweak the weighting of different effects to make the spell more/less powerful and more/less chaotic.
- Instead of having it cast on a weapon or on fists, have it just be a range-1 spell, like Freeze is. None of the mess of multi-branding or gaining/losing it when switching weapons, no ranged sniping with it (it's not a hex or a blowgun), none of the issues of how it interacts with your weapon skills. Plus, it's unusual in that (unlike, say, Fire Storm), you can't just stand at the edge of the screen and blast away - for a spell that can change the course of a fight with a single cast, you have to get in close.


Summon [okay, not all insects, but whatever you want to call the spell]:
Pros:
- Again, a high-level poison spell that doesn't step on too many other toes or go off message.
- All the critters are on theme.
- All the critters have appropriate utility for late-game. Emperor Scorpions mimics what we see from Greater Mummies, Orb Spiders have OOD (good/bad spell from allies), Jumping Spiders have webs (again, good/bad), Ghost Moths provide a special chance for anti-caster creatures, Moths of Wrath have the ever-interesting effect of berzerking everything.

Cons:
- ?

Thoughts:
- Summon Mana Viper should probably be pulled from Summoning/Hexes and at least moved to Summoning/Poison Magic, but it could just be bundled in as another summon outcome for this spell.
- Interestingly, the value of these allies mostly comes from their special abilities, which is unusual for summons. Could be a good thing, or a bad one - you could cast it and get an army of Ghost Moths (and/or possibly Mana Vipers) that could hit an ancient lich as hard as a silence spell. Or you could get a handful of jumping spiders against something big and nasty enough to tear through webs without stopping, shrugs off their attacks, or that just nukes the entire area.

[Blade]

Because that spell is really, really, really bad?

Why do you say that?

I can take a stab at it. Let's take a look at spells that would have comparable xp investment:
Shatter: Kill every creature but a few flying in a couple of casts, break walls, wreck the dungeon.
Tornado: Kill almost everything near you, regardless of type, in a couple of casts over a few turns, disrupt enemies
Fire Storm: Kill almost everything in AoE, including rF+++
Glaciate: see above
Neurotoxin: gives a few status effects, excluding some of the most dangerous monsters in the game (orbs of fire, liches, mummies, etc)

There is no situation in which I'd rather train for it than the others. It doesn't pack anywhere near enough of a punch to be worth an investment like that.

That said, the idea at the core is cool. I wouldn't mind seeing more poison spells if there are meaningful additions to be made, and that idea could become effective with a bit of tweaking.

[lethediver]

Because that spell is really, really, really bad?

Why do you say that?

I can take a stab at it. Let's take a look at spells that would have comparable xp investment:
Shatter: Kill every creature but a few flying in a couple of casts, break walls, wreck the dungeon.
Tornado: Kill almost everything near you, regardless of type, in a couple of casts over a few turns, disrupt enemies
Fire Storm: Kill almost everything in AoE, including rF+++
Glaciate: see above
Neurotoxin: gives a few status effects, excluding some of the most dangerous monsters in the game (orbs of fire, liches, mummies, etc)

There is no situation in which I'd rather train for it than the others. It doesn't pack anywhere near enough of a punch to be worth an investment like that.

That said, the idea at the core is cool. I wouldn't mind seeing more poison spells if there are meaningful additions to be made, and that idea could become effective with a bit of tweaking.

Ah, great explanation. You're right, in that it isn't nearly as strong or generally applicable as those other lv9 spells.

Frankly, the only spell i could think of comparable to those, utilizing poison magic, is something like "acid rain" and, well, I dont the GDs are going to do that. So maybe we should live with this spell being a lvl7, situationally strong spell and just forgo the idea of Poison magic having an ultimate spell.

[TeshiAlair]

What about giving NTox a bit more utility?

Renaming: Fumigating Presence. Same effect as current, but also creates dense clouds of poison around you that act like fog and follow you like Ring of Fire. It remains distinct from the other lvl9 spells by still being more of a melee range effect, but now also protects you from ranged threats as well. I don't think it steps on pCloud too badly since it is centered on you and not as large, making comboing with ignite poison far more risky. While it does use clouds, it uses them in a way that is distinct from the other cloud poison spells.

[duvessa]

Trying to come up with high-level damage spells for poison magic is a complete waste of time. The devs have made it very clear that poison magic spells are no longer allowed to do significant non-poison damage. The level 6 poison spells already easily kill anything without rPois. So any level 7+ poison damage spell that would have a reasonable chance of being added to the game would also be completely useless.
This isn't to say there's no room for high-level poison magic spells at all, but they aren't going to be conjurations. As bcadren pointed out in the other thread, resistance reduction is a horrendously stupid mechanic, however, it was added to crawl not once but twice relatively recently, so a poison spell that removes rPois might not be out of the question.
Summons are another option but I don't think making poison skill useful is worth the drawback of buffing summoning, tbh.
Don't try to come up with level 9 spells, the distinguishing feature of all level 9 spells currently in the game is that they suck. The spell level needs to be rethought completely, not have even more basically-useless spells added to it.

[Shard1697]

Don't try to come up with level 9 spells, the distinguishing feature of all level 9 spells currently in the game is that they suck.

No, they don't. Not for anyone besides the most utterly devoted, niche 1% of players who play in a very particular way.

[Tiktacy]

Trying to come up with high-level damage spells for poison magic is a complete waste of time. The devs have made it very clear that poison magic spells are no longer allowed to do significant non-poison damage. The level 6 poison spells already easily kill anything without rPois. So any level 7+ poison damage spell that would have a reasonable chance of being added to the game would also be completely useless.
This isn't to say there's no room for high-level poison magic spells at all, but they aren't going to be conjurations. As bcadren pointed out in the other thread, resistance reduction is a horrendously stupid mechanic, however, it was added to crawl not once but twice relatively recently, so a poison spell that removes rPois might not be out of the question.
Summons are another option but I don't think making poison skill useful is worth the drawback of buffing summoning, tbh.
Don't try to come up with level 9 spells, the distinguishing feature of all level 9 spells currently in the game is that they suck. The spell level needs to be rethought completely, not have even more basically-useless spells added to it.

Can you please stop saying level 9 spells suck? Same goes for everyone else who says this. Its like your intentionally misrepresenting what you are saying to get players to argue with you.

Level 9 spells don't suck, they don't suck at all, shatter is absolutely amazing. However, their experience investment is so absurdly large that getting them online is completely out of the question especially during a 3-5 rune game unless you follow ashenzari and are going for shatter or tornado.

Aside from your misleading comment on level 9 spells, I completely agree with you.

[CanOfWorms]

Isn't the level 7 spell just a bootleg sack of spiders.

[Sar]

@Blade: in my experience, those spells are not very good without good spellpower (so, lots of Int and enhancer). Low power Fire Storm is horrendous against rF+++ critters, for example. If this particular spell relied on spellpower mostly for its duration, I could see it having a niche.

Of course, spells that don't rely on spellpower for its effects are probably not desirable in current Crawl.

[lethediver]

Isn't the level 7 spell just a bootleg sack of spiders.

Hm,

Sack of spiders can give the following monsters:
Giant mite
Spider
Trapdoor spider
Redback
Jumping spider
Orb spider
Tarantella
Wolf spider
Ghost moth

To differentiate it, we could give the lv7 spell the following monster set:

Emperor Scorpion
Death Scarab
Hornet
Wasp
Demonic Crawler

Could also throw in Ghost Moth and Orb Spider, some level of overlap isnt necessarily bad.

[advil]

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other but I wanted to point out that the most comparable spell to neurotoxin as sketched here might actually be confusing touch, though that one is balanced completely differently.

[Lacuenta]

Level 9 spells don't suck, they don't suck at all, shatter is absolutely amazing. However, their experience investment is so absurdly large that getting them online is completely out of the question especially during a 3-5 rune game unless you follow ashenzari and are going for shatter or tornado. .

That's not the point, recently I found out that you can get tornado castable on a mufi^go (4 runes). Its just not neccesary and doesn`t increase winchance at all.

[Shard1697]

I think "winchance" is a really nebulous thing and it's nearly impossible to say whether something flat increases or decreases it because there's so many factors at play.

[ZipZipskins]

But the point that's being made is that many characters who have level 9 spells online are capable of winning with or without the level 9 spell, I think

[ydeve]

I think the concept of neurotoxin is interesting, being a high level (basically hex) spell that inflicts random status ailments on enemies. An idea to address spamability vs power would be to have it work on enemies in a small aura around you (2 tile radius maybe?) while inflicting contamination on yourself. Though that feels like it's stepping a little on dischord and disjuction's toes.

[Hurkyl]

But the point that's being made is that many characters who have level 9 spells online are capable of winning with or without the level 9 spell, I think

Most characters that can win can win with less than what they have.

[duvessa]

The point is that getting a level 9 spell is actively harmful to your character because it means spending a bunch of xp that would have been much better spent elsewhere.

[Tiktacy]

But the point that's being made is that many characters who have level 9 spells online are capable of winning with or without the level 9 spell, I think

Most characters that can win can win with less than what they have.

Level 9 spells don't assist you in winning, they assist you in defeating extremely powerful groups of enemies like in zigs, tomb:3, and even vaults:5. With that said, doing the latter 2 does not require a level 9 spell even in the slightest.

The reality is, the only place for a level 9 spell is extended end game and zigs.

However, I think its also worth mentioning that level 9 spells are also extremely cool and flavorful by most peoples standards and as a result are very fun to play with. Just because a spell won't be used in the context of optimal 3-rune gameplay doesn't mean it won't have a place in crawl as something fun.

I think a level 8 spell might be better suited for neurotoxin though. Level 9 spells should be reserved for the 4 basic elements only: Earth, Fire, water, and Air. Flavor is definitely the best aspect of level 9 spells, keeping that flavor intact as much as possible sounds like a good idea to me.

[ZipZipskins]

But the point that's being made is that many characters who have level 9 spells online are capable of winning with or without the level 9 spell, I think

Most characters that can win can win with less than what they have.

Level 9 spells don't assist you in winning, they assist you in defeating extremely powerful groups of enemies like in zigs, tomb:3, and even vaults:5.

That would be why I was talking about winrate.

edit or winchance or wtfever was said

[lethediver]

I think the concept of neurotoxin is interesting, being a high level (basically hex) spell that inflicts random status ailments on enemies. An idea to address spamability vs power would be to have it work on enemies in a small aura around you (2 tile radius maybe?) while inflicting contamination on yourself. Though that feels like it's stepping a little on dischord and disjuction's toes.

If spammability is an issue, Could have it cause sickness instead (you get sick just from being near the stuff for too long). If we put drawbacks in its worth amping up the spell a little though, like by having it inflict multiple status effects at the same time or add some guaranteed dmg per hit.

[Tiktacy]

The point is that getting a level 9 spell is actively harmful to your character because it means spending a bunch of xp that would have been much better spent elsewhere.

I agree with you for the most part on this subject, but that doesn't mean I think the spells themselves are bad. Level 9 spells have their place in the game, its not fair to say they suck in general simply because they don't pertain to the way you enjoy the game.

[lethediver]

I've been thinking that neurotoxin might be too good on some characters (hybrids, especially ranged weapon users) and not good enough on others (pure casters). What would you guys think of making it a spray (similar to dazzling spray) or 1 range touch spell? Could rename to "toxic spray". This would make it so players dont have to invest in a second skill to get the full utility from it.

[Tiktacy]

Just one quick suggestion: Have the spell not function based on turns/auts but rather based on attacks. In other words, when you cast the spell, the buff is not timed but diminishes based on triggers of its effect. So you can rest all you want while its active, but it won't disappear until you've exhausted all the procs of its effect(with the number being based on spellpower). This can potentially encourage casting it over and over again until it eventually works while safely over the down staircase to the deadly mobs, so to counteract this I would recommend having the amount of procs at low spell power be low(maybe 2-3?) until it reaches a certain spellpower that would generally be reached around the same time intended casting levels would also be reached, in which the procs would be greatly increased(9-15 maybe?). This way, the mana spent on the spell can potentially be more beneficial than the utility of the buff.

Also, I don't normally nitpick on this sort of thing, but that spell should really be level 7-8, not level 9. Level 9 spells are cool, but there only exist 4 in the game right now and they are rarely used outside of extended due to the enormous amount of exp investment required. Definitely reduce it a level or two in the OP, level 9 has a tendency to trigger a plavlovian response in GDD.

[prozacelf]

Isn't the level 7 spell just a bootleg sack of spiders.

Exactly what I thought. There are already two items that do that (unless rod of the swarm got removed?) and only need evo investment, which I think is worth getting on virtually everyone that isn't sacrificing artifice.

[lethediver]

Just one quick suggestion: Have the spell not function based on turns/auts but rather based on attacks. In other words, when you cast the spell, the buff is not timed but diminishes based on triggers of its effect. So you can rest all you want while its active, but it won't disappear until you've exhausted all the procs of its effect(with the number being based on spellpower). This can potentially encourage casting it over and over again until it eventually works while safely over the down staircase to the deadly mobs, so to counteract this I would recommend having the amount of procs at low spell power be low(maybe 2-3?) until it reaches a certain spellpower that would generally be reached around the same time intended casting levels would also be reached, in which the procs would be greatly increased(9-15 maybe?). This way, the mana spent on the spell can potentially be more beneficial than the utility of the buff.

Also, I don't normally nitpick on this sort of thing, but that spell should really be level 7-8, not level 9. Level 9 spells are cool, but there only exist 4 in the game right now and they are rarely used outside of extended due to the enormous amount of exp investment required. Definitely reduce it a level or two in the OP, level 9 has a tendency to trigger a plavlovian response in GDD.

This is great. Although, I have to say the fact that the GDs seem to be interested in removing all buffs, including repel and deflect missiles from the game, makes me somewhat nervous about this - it's part of the reason I'm considering re-proposing this as an AoE or touch spell rather than a status effect.

[lethediver]

Isn't the level 7 spell just a bootleg sack of spiders.

Exactly what I thought. There are already two items that do that (unless rod of the swarm got removed?) and only need evo investment, which I think is worth getting on virtually everyone that isn't sacrificing artifice.

I'd note that Rod of Shadows has, uh... some overlap... with the spell Summon Shadow Creatures. So there's a precedent.

However, pretty straightforward to fix this. Just include poisonous monsters that arent included in summon swarm / sack of spiders:

Emperor Scorpion
Hornet
Demonic Crawler
Death scarab

If really needed, could change to summon serpents instead:

Black mamba
Anaconda
Guardian serpent
Sea snake
Shock serpent (maybe Bad Idea)

Though, this would probably bump the spell down to lv6 summoning/poison. Maybe even lvl 5.

[Tiktacy]

Isn't the level 7 spell just a bootleg sack of spiders.

Exactly what I thought. There are already two items that do that (unless rod of the swarm got removed?) and only need evo investment, which I think is worth getting on virtually everyone that isn't sacrificing artifice.

I'd note that Rod of Shadows has, uh... some overlap... with the spell Summon Shadow Creatures. So there's a precedent.

However, pretty straightforward to fix this. Just include poisonous monsters that arent included in summon swarm / sack of spiders:

Emperor Scorpion
Hornet
Demonic Crawler
Death scarab

If really needed, could change to summon serpents instead:

Black mamba
Anaconda
Guardian serpent
Sea snake
Shock serpent (maybe Bad Idea)

Though, this would probably bump the spell down to lv6 summoning/poison. Maybe even lvl 5.

Summon serpents already exists in the game, and its a level 2 spell. . . Well, kind of, but you get the point.

[lethediver]

Mmm, perhaps rod of the swarm could be removed then? Or sack of spiders?

Evo is pretty strong and there are lots of evocables, so some pruning here and there seems warranted. I mean... As was pointed out... There are TWO evocables that give insects... Surely that's at least one more than needed given that PM doesn't even have one.

[Sar]

Rod of the swarm met the axe of The Great Remover five days ago: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=d48e5fa400913f46fc8bd6c6c0dc037753500c82

[lethediver]

Rod of the swarm met the axe of The Great Remover five days ago: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=d48e5fa400913f46fc8bd6c6c0dc037753500c82

That sure sounds like fate to me.

[Quazifuji]

What does adding a poison summon really add to the game, though, that isn't already covered by other summons, besides a high level poison spell? Neither "add another high level summon spell, but this one only summons monsters that can poison enemies" nor "let characters with high level poison magic get access to a powerful summoning spell more easily than most non-summoners can" sounds like a particularly interesting addition to the game to me, and the devs have already made it clear that they don't consider "a high level poison spell" to be interesting either.

In general, the response to past spell proposals has given me the strong impression that, for a spell to be added to the game, you have to be able to argue for it being a meaningful addition to the game without mentioning its spell school or level. The mechanics have to be interesting on their own. And if you take away "level 7 poison/summoning spell" I don't really see what's interesting about this.

[lethediver]

What does adding a poison summon really add to the game, though, that isn't already covered by other summons, besides a high level poison spell? Neither "add another high level summon spell, but this one only summons monsters that can poison enemies" nor "let characters with high level poison magic get access to a powerful summoning spell more easily than most non-summoners can" sounds like a particularly interesting addition to the game to me, and the devs have already made it clear that they don't consider "a high level poison spell" to be interesting either.

In general, the response to past spell proposals has given me the strong impression that, for a spell to be added to the game, you have to be able to argue for it being a meaningful addition to the game without mentioning its spell school or level. The mechanics have to be interesting on their own. And if you take away "level 7 poison/summoning spell" I don't really see what's interesting about this.

What does adding a poison summon really add to the game, though, that isn't already covered by other summons, besides a high level poison spell? Neither "add another high level summon spell, but this one only summons monsters that can poison enemies" nor "let characters with high level poison magic get access to a powerful summoning spell more easily than most non-summoners can" sounds like a particularly interesting addition to the game to me, and the devs have already made it clear that they don't consider "a high level poison spell" to be interesting either.

In general, the response to past spell proposals has given me the strong impression that, for a spell to be added to the game, you have to be able to argue for it being a meaningful addition to the game without mentioning its spell school or level. The mechanics have to be interesting on their own. And if you take away "level 7 poison/summoning spell" I don't really see what's interesting about this.

Oh, I wasnt aware of all that. I'm kind of new to this forum, so i tend to be out of the loop on those types of unwritten rules.

Though the "unique mechanics needed" point is good, it doesn't really invalidate any of the reasons i stated why summoning spell is a good addition to PM arsenal. It just means there is another requirement for making the spell add-able, that is, a mechanical uniqueness requirement. In other words, if the summoning spell was mechanically unique in a way that adds "meaning" to crawl, then it is valid and green light for addition to the game.

Would you agree with that? In this forum, i try to ask whether things are theoretically possible before i commit to trying them seriously. This helps me uncover more "unwritten rules" of crawl design so i can learn faster and save everyones time.

[CanOfWorms]

Here's a point by point breakdown of the problems with Summon Insects:

Ghost Moths: They bring Antimagic and Invisibility to the table. Antimagic is covered by Mana Vipers. Summon Greater Demon has Lorocyprocas which have overlap Ghost Moths, the only difference is that it's a single summon and not guaranteed.

Emperor Scorpions: You get equally hard hitting things (possibly better?) from a variety of spells with about the same investment in Summonings, including Monstrous Menagerie, Summon Hydra, Summon Greater Demon (although that has the abjuration cost for certain summons.)

Orb Spiders: Mostly a liability with allies (which you'll probably be getting with a Summonings investment) since orbs tend to friendly fire.

Jumping Spiders:Their jumpiness makes their ability to block basically useless so they're just there to occasionally drop a web on a monster, except that the monster will usually get out of it by the time you reach it because the jumping spider is nowhere near you. Sphinxes from Monstrous Menagerie can paralyze.

Moth Of Wrath: A fairly tenuous connection to poison magic on their own so you need one of the other monsters to justify having a poison/summoning spell summon them. The only really unique effect that isn't vaguely covered by the other monsters.

If the spell summons a swarm of insects then it's also covered by XXX since that's Summon Butterflies except the butterflies are actually threatening. Also, as a dual school level 7 Summonings spell it has competition with other Summoning spells (most notably Monstrous Menagerie) and possibly Summon Hydra. I'd suggest that the best you could do is make it summon Torpor Snails and just remove Haste (the spell) from the game (effectively making it a level 7 Summonings/Poison spell which might be a horrible thing to do???)

[njvack]

Jumping Spiders:Their jumpiness makes their ability to block basically useless so they're just there to occasionally drop a web on a monster, except that the monster will usually get out of it by the time you reach it because the jumping spider is nowhere near you. Sphinxes from Monstrous Menagerie can paralyze.

Having an ally dropping webs on magic-immune monsters actually sounds pretty decent to me, particularly if you're already near melee range.

Orb Spiders and maybe Moths of Wrath would be pretty vexing allies, but the others would be OK, I think. Mana vipers are cool, but they require melee range to land their antimagic.

[Croases]

Here's a silly idea for a level 9 poison spell:

Noxious Conversion, Level 9 Poison
You take the next 13d(spellpower/4) damage as poison levels. This is no different than regular poison and can be healed by !curing or Cure Poison. Effect ends only if you take all the damage allotted by the spell, unusable if you can't get poisoned, prevents poison-immune forms.

Yes, it's +300 hp as long as you have curing: the spell, though it might still be a tad weak for level 9, since Death's Door is a thing and sits at level 8.

[kuniqs]

Yes, it's +300 hp as long as you have curing: the spell, though it might still be a tad weak for level 9, since Death's Door is a thing and sits at level 8.

Or: do we need lvl 9 support spells if a lvl 8 support spell makes you literally invincible?

[Chicken]

The way this is headed I'm thinking this might be rewritten as a Xom's Tea Party spell, that invites all kinds of friendly monsters like orb spiders to throw balls around and shock serpents to juice up the conflict and moths of wrath to helpfully berserk you. Maybe we could throw in some soul eaters and zymes that affect the vicinity impartially, a catoblepas to slow things down for a bit...

[lethediver]

The way this is headed I'm thinking this might be rewritten as a Xom's Tea Party spell, that invites all kinds of friendly monsters like orb spiders to throw balls around and shock serpents to juice up the conflict and moths of wrath to helpfully berserk you. Maybe we could throw in some soul eaters and zymes that affect the vicinity impartially, a catoblepas to slow things down for a bit...

Thats not a bad idea in and of itself. Its not the direction im planning on going here though.

My ideal vision for the spell is something that

- no one makes negative forum comment about or if they do, its patently obvious they are just pulling stuff out of thin air

- devs will implement it

Suggestions that move us towards that goal are most welcome at this juncture.

[viggolo]

Hello, after doing lots of initial research, I have concluded that there are a few specific reasons that no high level poison magic spells exist.

• 1) GDs want poison magic to stay poison magic. Branching into alchemy, corrosion, acid, viruses, etc. seems to be discouraged.
  
• 2) GDs want any potential poison magic spell addition to fit within the existing poison magic usage spectrum. Ie, good against living and to a slightly lesser extent demons, mediocre against rP enemies, and useless vs nonliving and undead.
  
• 3) Its hard to think of a spell that fits within that spectrum and yet is actually useful late game.

It is true that there is no high-level poison magic spell and there are a lot of heavy hitting enemies in the game that have poison resistance, which is why I personally do not use any poison magic past mid-game.
*You suggest neurotoxin as a weapon buff... so it's a charms/poison lvl 9 spell that you put on your weapons. I'm not sure that that is a sound suggestion, considering that as a caster the last place I want to be is next to an enemy engaging in melee combat. Or ranged combat for that matter as it's most probably true that in order to get spell success of a lvl 9 poison spell to below 12% I'd need to invest a lot of time and effort into leveling that skill along with a weapon skill...
Not sure if you had thought it through but... a lvl 9 poison spell should be something like completely filling your whole LOS with clouds of poison that do damage over time and that you could on the next turn ignite via ignite poison.