New crusader


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 15:42

Re: New crusader

Roderic wrote:Dark Age of Camelot (MMORPG) features a Skald class:
http://camelot.allakhazam.com/class.html?cclass=25

Thanks, that's interesting. By the way, kilobyte has already changed the description of the book of war chants, so it looks like it's going to be Skald:

A book of spells helpful for a warrior. The versions contained here have a musical form, following the traditions of fighting skalds. Functionally, though, they work the same as spells whose magic words are merely spoken.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

For this message the author galehar has received thanks:
MyOtheHedgeFox

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Monday, 21st February 2011, 15:57

Location: South Carolina

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 15:59

Re: New crusader

To emphasize the hybrid nature, should we use a name like "Chimera?"

Or to emphasize the buffs, could we use Hoodooer or Voodooer or Obean? The last is getting obscure like Skald. Mojo master? Mojo'o might be the right word there, or it could be something my brain made up based on the Fulani word moco'o for medicine man.

Would Phylacterer step on too many toes?

Blades Runner

Posts: 546

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 14:25

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 16:10

Re: New crusader

Knight-errant?
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 17:10

Re: New crusader

Skald still sounds a little oriented to a human Norse while we have more species with different cultures on their own. Probably "bard" has been used as a more generic name. It's up to devs eventually which flavour want to keep.

The description isn't perfect for my taste yet. Perhaps this one: "A book of spells helpful for a warrior. Following the traditions of skalds they have the meter of a chant to be easily recited in battle. Functionally, though, they work the same as spells whose magic words are merely spoken."

The idea is that fighters and tough guys are more prone to recite a spell if it has a "catchy" rhythm and intonation rather than incomprehensible gibberish in unknown languages, hence the apparition of skalds as developers of this alternative spellcasting.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.

Spider Stomper

Posts: 195

Joined: Monday, 25th April 2011, 20:48

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 20:23

Re: New crusader

Please don't name the new crusader background Skald.

If a background name can't describe the playing style of a background with generic words, it has to use prior cultural associations to clue players into what playing a background is like. Everybody knows what a monk does, everybody knows what a berserker does, everybody knows what a priest does. But what is a Skald, what does a Skald do? For all I know it throws boiling water at people.

Perhaps I'm merely an ignorant American and Europeans are more knowledgeable of the Norse, but I submit that the Skald tradition is not widely enough known among the audience, i.e. English speakers, for cultural identification.

I don't think the problem is that it comes from a specific culture; gladiators come from the Romans and berserkers (as noted upthread) come from the Norse, but English speakers are for the most part familiar with those figures. But to know what a Skald is requires more specialized knowledge in Norse culture than to know what a berserker is, and so that's why it will look out of place on the list of background names.

I throw my weight behind Arcane Warrior, which, while wordy, is certainly more on the right track than Skald.

Bim

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 700

Joined: Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 15:51

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 20:33

Re: New crusader

I really, really don't like Skald, I know it's up to the devs and all, but I've just never heard of (properly, it rings a bell, but I can't remember where from and didn't know the connotation) it before this very conversation, and I consider myself an average RPG player who reads alot of fantasy and the like. Similarly, not that it's irrefutable evidence, but I asked someone doing a history degree if they knew it and they hadn't heard, just seems far to niche. Also, is it just me or does it sound like a race not a class??

If old Viking legends are not an acceptable source for background names, we'd better do something about the berserker, too.

-Don't be facetious, as pointed out 'going berserk' is common usage. And I disagree, sounding cool in my eyes is much, much less important than new players knowing exactly what they're getting themselves into. It's a free game that is quickly downloadable, if it doesn't grab your attention straight away, or you pick skald and it turns out to not suit your play style, then maybe you won't be bothered. Yeah, you'd have to be mighty fickle to think that way, but why put a non-common usage word in when you don't need to?

I don't know if you've been following 4e D&D development

-No I haven't. A Battlemage fits in that it is a mage, that actively engages in battle. Ok, battle could be spells, but melee seems more usual. It just seems like a clean fit, but 'Arcane Warrior' works equally well, if not better in that it doesn't have this 'DnD stigma' which I've never heard about.

I just don't see why it needs a 'flavourful name' . Why can't, just as earth elementalist or venom mage, it do exactly what it says on the tin.
2012 Winner of fewest proposed ideas implemented by devs.

Bim

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 700

Joined: Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 15:51

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 20:35

Re: New crusader

^Exactly what Electric Albatross said. I lived in Finland for a while and I haven't heard of it, and that's pretty much as Norse country as you can get.
2012 Winner of fewest proposed ideas implemented by devs.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 553

Joined: Wednesday, 22nd December 2010, 10:12

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 20:43

Re: New crusader

i would have thought norway is as norse a country as you can get

Snake Sneak

Posts: 92

Joined: Friday, 17th December 2010, 21:31

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 21:17

Re: New crusader

+1 vote for Skald
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 21:57

Re: New crusader

The name also conditions the style and how the character is depicted in my imagination. Arcane or mystic warrior or battlemage or warmage or whatever else similar sounds like a yet-another-spellcaster but carrying a big stick; to the contrary skald or bard or whatever similar if exists , makes the character a distinct background from the rest of the classes available and adds a flavour of a charismatic role (note that charisma and charm comes from the same root).

Perhaps in first instance would be good to remember how and why the class was created and why it was called crusader...

Frankly, I don't know which option is better but not crusader anymore. Charmer or even warchanter seem plain and descriptive options despite the possible confusion of the latter if some warper learns spells of a enchanter or conversely.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 22:14

Re: New crusader

Roderic wrote:Perhaps in first instance would be good to remember how and why the class was created and why it was called crusader...

From what I've seen in the source, it looks like it used to be a religious background at some point. But it must have been a long time ago.

To detractors, I'm telling you, I had no idea what a skald was and I had to look it up. On the other hand, I still have no idea what a reaver is, even after looking it up. And it never bothered be when the class was still in the game. I won my first all runer with a reaver, and I didn't even bothered to look it up. The name was cool, and it didn't took me long to understand that it's a conjuration/melee hybrid. Looking at the background selection screen, I see many descriptive names, but there's also a few flavour ones, like wanderer and stalker. And again, we're talking about renaming crusader. This one isn't just non-descriptive, it's misleading.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Bim

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 700

Joined: Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 15:51

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 22:37

Re: New crusader

Normally, aren't bards/skalds normally the 'accompanying class'? As in, don't they normally buff their allies or whatever? A bard doesn't buff anyone except himself, and even so, most of the spells are weapon brandings, not buffs. They're better than crusaders for sure, as crusaders (named after the Christian Crusades against Muslims) just doesn't fit, but I really, really think that a more common usage name could be found.

I know you don't NEED to know all about the background and whatever to play as a class and enjoy it, but why bother having it as something obscure??
2012 Winner of fewest proposed ideas implemented by devs.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 553

Joined: Wednesday, 22nd December 2010, 10:12

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 22:56

Re: New crusader

galehar wrote:
Roderic wrote:Perhaps in first instance would be good to remember how and why the class was created and why it was called crusader...
To detractors, I'm telling you, I had no idea what a skald was and I had to look it up. On the other hand, I still have no idea what a reaver is, even after looking it up. And it never bothered be when the class was still in the game. I won my first all runer with a reaver, and I didn't even bothered to look it up. The name was cool, and it didn't took me long to understand that it's a conjuration/melee hybrid. Looking at the background selection screen, I see many descriptive names, but there's also a few flavour ones, like wanderer and stalker. And again, we're talking about renaming crusader. This one isn't just non-descriptive, it's misleading.

I'm not really a detractor here (my opinion is basically, "want to rename something? Ok, whatever, it's just a name") but I think it's worth pointing out that at the moment all the classes in crawl are essentially"english". Even a more obscure one like reaver has a meaning, although the word isn't used any more: "to reave" means to forcibly steal something, or pillage, or something along those lines. Skald on the other hand is completely foreign.

But I'm just playing devils advocate here. I think if you rename crusaders, Skald is a good enough choice. It's a better than most of the other suggestions, and *much* better than any of the suggestions involving giving them the name of an old class (eg Paladin) or shuffling around class names.

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 3037

Joined: Sunday, 2nd January 2011, 02:06

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 23:31

Re: New crusader

Dictionary.com says skald is a legitimate English word, even if it isn't in common use among non-RPG folk. Then again, non-RPG folk don't always know enough about Greek to know what a necromancer would be, or enough about the Vikings to know what a berserker is. Monk is strictly anti-historical, and there's is no reason to think that it would be a non-religious unarmed warrior unless you're importing baggage from RPG-land. Conjuror is an English word, but good luck finding a non-gamer who know knows what 'to conjure' means, and summoner isn't much better.

Bottom line is that we'll get used to whatever name it gets, so we should use something that doesn't cause any unfortunate implications or make Crawl the butt of any jokes. Crusader has unfortunate implications, and anything like Fightbrain is going to be the butt of jokes.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Monday, 21st February 2011, 15:57

Location: South Carolina

Post Tuesday, 21st June 2011, 23:40

Re: New crusader

Tactician? Skirmisher? Arcane Blade?

Mojo Knight? ;)

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 39

Joined: Thursday, 2nd June 2011, 00:19

Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2011, 00:01

Re: New crusader

Well since we have a book of War Chants, what about... War Chanter/Warchanter? It's even a D&D class, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Or we can shift crusader towards the religious archetype :) If TSO was any good in the early and mid-game, it would've been much easier...

Skald sounds good but it's opaque as someone said. I realize that everyone will have a different image in mind when seeing the various class names, but at least they have a slight idea what the class might be like, but kald is just... obscure.

I also liked arcane warrior a lot, seems to fit just perfect. Maybe we could just shuffle the second word... arcane sounds good to me with pretty much any battle-oriented role...

Other stuff I found that might be worth considering, mostly shamelessly taken from D&D... spellslinger, swordmage, spellsword, warden, soldier, war weaver, champion, wardancer, warmancer.
User avatar

Vaults Vanquisher

Posts: 482

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 21:08

Location: Savannah, Ga.

Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2011, 00:02

Re: New crusader

Swashbuckler?

concept_art.gif
concept_art.gif (15.89 KiB) Viewed 5723 times
  Code:
Jory screams, "No, no!" before exploding into a cloud of blood!

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Monday, 21st February 2011, 15:57

Location: South Carolina

Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2011, 00:35

Re: New crusader

Polymath?

Lettered Knave?

War Scholar?

Could we re-use Reaver?

Cadet?

Bim

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 700

Joined: Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 15:51

Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2011, 02:12

Re: New crusader

Then again, non-RPG folk don't always know enough about Greek to know what a necromancer would be, or enough about the Vikings to know what a berserker is

As said before, to 'go berserk' is a common English phrase, and necromancy is a lot more 'mainstream' RPG/in movies and the like. Similarly, I've used, and have heard people use the word 'conjure' (i.e. I'm sure you can conjure up something good to do tonight). Ok, I might not use it a lot, but its definitely a lot more common usage than 'I'm going to sing like a skald tonight' or whatever. I asked someone else and they asked 'do they put boiling hot water on people?'. Ha skalding jokes.

what about... War Chanter/Warchanter

^THIS! War Chanter is exactly what it does. Book of war chants. For a War chanter. chant chant chant. It can't get any more straightforward or easy!
2012 Winner of fewest proposed ideas implemented by devs.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2011, 08:06

Re: New crusader

lordfrikk wrote:shamelessly taken from D&D

If I thought picking class names from D&D were a good idea, I would already have renamed it Bard.

jejorda2 wrote:Could we re-use Reaver?

No we don't re-use old class name and we don't shuffle them around.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1221

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2011, 08:38

Re: New crusader

Since the startup screen has been rearranged to divide backgrounds into warriors, zealots, warrior mages etc, there's not necessarily any need to give them a name that explicitly means something that involves both spellcasting and fighting, like battlemage etc.

You could just call them something like duellist or mercenary, and the fact that they appear in the warrior-mages category will give people some idea about what they do.

I guess the same is true for skald, since in Viking history a skald was a poet with no particular connection to either magic or combat, but the background's placement under warrior-mages would let people know that in this game they do both. I don't think skald is a terrible idea, it just seems a bit out of place in a list where almost everything else is a relatively well-known word and fairly self-explanatory (I guess abyssal knight is the exception here.)

Dungeon Dilettante

Posts: 3

Joined: Wednesday, 27th April 2011, 07:05

Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2011, 09:49

Re: New crusader

Knight-Arcane? Or some permutation thereof. Mentions magic to clue people in that the class uses spells, but mentioning 'knight' emphasises non-negligible armour and weapons, which also fits the goal of encouraging medium-armour usage.

As to the new book itself, I like it. I had to be pretty careful, but switching up my weapon brand for the situation at hand felt really immersive and engaging, and RMsl/Regen seemed adequate for getting started. That L1 phantom armour thing sounds like fun, though.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 39

Joined: Thursday, 2nd June 2011, 00:19

Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2011, 09:59

Re: New crusader

galehar wrote:
lordfrikk wrote:shamelessly taken from D&D

If I thought picking class names from D&D were a good idea, I would already have renamed it Bard.

That's like saying we should rename wizards, because they're taken from D&D. Thing is, it's just a general description of the role. If we had something like red dragon disciple or pale master, now that would be stolen from D&D. By this logic, we already stole crusader from Oblivion, which also has stuff like assassin or healer. All general names.

But what do you think about the war chanter one, would fit nicely IMO.
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2011, 10:54

Re: New crusader

Warchanter sounds fine, just as I proposed previously few posts above... Warchanter seems like an enchanter but war-like oriented. And also it still can be fashioned as a well-educated fighter with knowledge of poetry, music and magic, more or less as a bard or a skald would be.

EDIT: Without knowdledge of the D&D class I've seen in the link of lordfrikk that it coincides with this description above for they are considered "virtuous bards".

I think is the best option because it is plain, self-descriptive, applicable to many races/cultures not only nordic-like, thematic-oriented and truly different from the rest of backgrounds.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 103

Joined: Saturday, 18th December 2010, 12:13

Location: Ukraine

Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2011, 16:14

Re: New crusader

I don't like new crusaders. They are boring, they are weak, they are tedious to play. They need a lot of victory dancing and anti victory dancing.

their starting equipment is a total crap, you can pick up the same on the ground starting from D1
They have bad int, and it's important for any caster or hybrid. If you want heavy armor casters, then lower dex. not int
They have no easy way to raise charms, and every spell raises something that not needed. that 1 level of fire or poison is just a total waste of xp
No 1st level spells, 2\3 of second level spells become almost useless after you find first good branded weapon

If I want to play armored melee hybrid I can take a necromancer, with skeleton meatshields to escape, powerful brand spell, draining for emergency healing, regeneration and ghostbusting spell. I may victory dance charms as easily as with crusader, but without waste skills. And don't forget about +3 to int
I can take an air elementalist, with a way to soften enemies at distance, life saving swiftness and repel missiles.And it's easy to victory dance charms.
Crusaders are clearly inferior to both options above.


I repeat If you want to make crusader heavy armor casters at least make them high str, high int, low dex class. There are no classes like this currently. Something like 13 str , 15 int, 7 dex for humans, or, at least 15,13,7
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Wednesday, 22nd June 2011, 16:50

Re: New crusader

I guess you didn't like the old crusader either, since none of the things you pointed out are new. There's no such thing as a heavy armoured caster, at least not until the very late game. I talked about medium armour, which means evp 3 max. You only need str 9 to wear this. In this kind of armour, you can also have decent evasion, and you don't need high int for low and medium level spells. Some races will prefer to play it with evasion rather than armour.
It's a very flexible background. It may have a weaker start than many others, but it can be played in a variety of ways and adapt easily.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Snake Sneak

Posts: 103

Joined: Saturday, 18th December 2010, 12:13

Location: Ukraine

Post Thursday, 23rd June 2011, 08:43

Re: New crusader

galehar wrote:I guess you didn't like the old crusader either, since none of the things you pointed out are new.
I liked it, because pure charms berserk outweighted everything + guaranteed access to haste is a nice thing to have. My deep elf crusaders that used regeneration+berserk combo starting from D2 were so cool and branched so nicely. I loved minotaur crusaders, it takes some time to victory dance charms, but then I got berserker with access to other buffs. I liked mountain dwarf crusaders, armor and shield aptitudes were nice for armoring up, and -2 charms isn't that bad. They was one of my favorite classes even with drawbacks, but now only drawbacks left

galehar wrote:There's no such thing as a heavy armoured caster, at least not until the very late game. I talked about medium armour, which means evp 3 max.

By heavy I mean heavy for casters. ring mail+. I know that it's almost impossible to wear plate armor and cast anything until the very late game. Also most crusaders start with 12 str or less, so it's obvious that they can't use something heavy right from the start. But with ring of wizardy I had crusaders in pretty heavy armors.

galehar wrote: You only need str 9 to wear this. In this kind of armour, you can also have decent evasion, and you don't need high int for low and medium level spells.

It's a reason why casters are better for melee hybrids. casters have 8 str, 15 int, 13 dex, crusaders have 12 12 12. If you don't plan to wear anything heavier than leather armour you don't need str, damage bonus is neglieble, and casters have slightly better evasion + cast better. Also, if you plan to fight in robes, you simply don't need 1 armor skill level. And if you do plan to use armor, then you usually pick-up more melee oriented race and get needed str anyway because they got racial str

galehar wrote:It's a very flexible background.
can you explain how it's more flexible then other backgrounds?

galehar wrote:It may have a weaker start than many others, but it can be played in a variety of ways and adapt easily.
Really? Can you give me examples of variety of ways to adapt?
You mean like this? You found a good artifact armor\large shield, you can switch to it, and became inferior magicless fighter, with worse attributes, and tons of xp wasted on now useless skills? Or - you found necromancer's book\gone kiku and know you are inferior necromancer, with worse attributes and some nearly useless skills (fire or poison). Or what?

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1611

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 21:54

Post Thursday, 23rd June 2011, 09:19

Re: New crusader

"It was like a berserker except better and with guaranteed Haste" is pretty much exactly the problem with the old book and is why it was changed, yes. If you want to berserk, try worshipping Trog!
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1593

Joined: Thursday, 19th May 2011, 16:38

Location: Penza, Russia

Post Thursday, 23rd June 2011, 09:56

Re: New crusader

Skald looks much better than Crusader in this respect.
Though I wonder why there are no mass boost chants.
If you find any mistakes or typos in my post, feel free to PM me about it. Thanks in advance!

The Verse flows throughout Aquaria...
Through each ripple and wave...
Through every living being...
The Verse binds us all as one.

Bim

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 700

Joined: Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 15:51

Post Thursday, 23rd June 2011, 11:56

Re: New crusader

I think 'mass boost chants' would be practically impossible to do without being ridiculously overpowered, I can't think of a single boosting spell that wouldn't become ridiculously overpowered by having 10 allies with it, similarly they would probably be pretty much no brainers to cast, unless they were so weak they were pointless. Obviously, if one of the 'allies' god suggestions came through, then this might become more important and could all be balanced out more, but at the moment It seems pretty hard to balance. This is again why War Chanter is better, as it's not alluding to a 'support' class.
2012 Winner of fewest proposed ideas implemented by devs.
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1593

Joined: Thursday, 19th May 2011, 16:38

Location: Penza, Russia

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 09:46

Re: New crusader

Erm, it could be changed in a better way. Let us say that for a skald that has descended into the Dungeons of Zot, where even the walls can be dangerous, expecting to have some allies to boost is too stupid. So the book he has is a special one, written for a lone warrior.
Of course there are spells which can boost the allies that were created by the other skalds that inhabit his/her tribe/town/village/lake/cave,
but does he really need them in the Dungeons, fighting alone against a pack of gnolls?
And letting somebody carry away a precious song, which can be found by an enemy and used against the adventurer's kin, is rather stupid too.
Sif Muna is not interested in folklore, just for the case.

Excuse me for rather incoherent writing: I'm not as proficient in English as I am in Russian. I hope the idea is clear enough.
If you find any mistakes or typos in my post, feel free to PM me about it. Thanks in advance!

The Verse flows throughout Aquaria...
Through each ripple and wave...
Through every living being...
The Verse binds us all as one.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 10:01

Re: New crusader

Elliptic gave them a new defensive spell: Shroud of Golubria.

This spell serves the purpose of giving the new Crusaders a little help while
also being a good addition to the Warper book (which lacked any support for
the melee weapon and skill the class starts with).

The flavour of the spell can probably still use some tweaking, but here is a
description of its mechanics:

L2 Charms/Translocations, gives a status effect "Shroud" for a short duration
(the same as Freezing Aura). While shrouded (by a fragile distortion of space),
melee attacks have a chance of being bent away from you and hitting the air
harmlessly, but each melee attack also has a chance, depending on damage, of
breaking the shroud (while still doing regular damage). In other words, Shroud
of Golubria is an unreliable melee damage prevention spell. On average a cast
will prevent 10 damage (if it doesn't run out of duration first).

Hopefully this spell succeeds in simultaneously being useful early on and weak
later (when there are more ranged attacks and every melee attack of
significance will have a large chance of breaking the shroud). Charms and
Translocations do not need any more staple spells that everyone wants for the
entire game, and this spell is intended to avoid that.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

For this message the author galehar has received thanks:
MyOtheHedgeFox
User avatar

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 811

Joined: Monday, 31st January 2011, 23:19

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 14:11

Re: New crusader

I thought the plan was to not do it like NetHack?

Skald would fit into the NetHack lineup right next to Tourist and Samurai. It wouldn't fit into Crawls. Crawl is clear and and simple. Skald is not. Although Bard works fine as they usually do buffs and such in games.
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 14:34

Re: New crusader

I prefer warchanter over skald/bard because the name is not culturally-focused and can be a generic for every race. Also it is a specialize version of a bard, oriented to a self-buff instead of inspire others, because the essence of rogue-likes is to have a single-player game. Whatever the name is, I like the new twist to the background because it hepls to set the player style among the different classes and it is original: a well-educated fighter, able to spellcasting and learned in arts.

Enough about this question of the name. Isn't the shroud a version of the "cloak of displacement effect" in nethack, where there is a chance of not being hitted because your position is fuzzy?
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 15:11

Re: New crusader

Roderic wrote:Enough about this question of the name. Isn't the shroud a version of the "cloak of displacement effect" in nethack, where there is a chance of not being hitted because your position is fuzzy?

Not really. Haven't you read the description? It's more like a translocation armour which has a chance to deflects blows. Cloak of displacement is more similar to phase shift, but still different.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 15:52

Re: New crusader

Then I don't see reason to not to merge "deflect missiles" with "shroud armor" because the deflection would act on both close combat blows and missiles from afar.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1774

Joined: Monday, 21st February 2011, 15:57

Location: South Carolina

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 16:12

Re: New crusader

Deflect missiles is a spell that's worthwhile in the toughest parts of the game and takes some investment to cast. It doesn't really belong in the starting book.

Shroud gives crusaders something useful to do with nascent spellcasting skills, but isn't useful once enemies start hitting hard.

Thought they are both defensive spells, they occupy two different niches. I guess they could be merged and just make the total damage that can be deflected depend on spell power, but then it would probably be either too hard to cast early on or too easy to cast later in the game.

For this message the author jejorda2 has received thanks:
Roderic
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 16:39

Re: New crusader

There's also the major version: repel missiles.

One could be charms/tloc and the other (repel) charms/air.

Also it would be nice to have some "air bubble" armor to avoid clouds of fire, freeze, etc. on your position
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 3618

Joined: Thursday, 23rd December 2010, 12:43

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 16:59

Re: New crusader

Given that elliptic carefully elaborated the raison d'etre for the new spell, I wonder how it can be confused with Deflect Missiles. :)

On the topic of the name: it _is_ a bikeshed discussion. Personally, I like Warchanter as well as Skald. The former has the advantage that it gives the starting book, the second has the (arguably less universal) advantage that it is unique. Both have the advantage of not coming from D&D (I object to Bard). In the end, it is not a big deal and I am fine with galehar settling the matter.

For this message the author dpeg has received thanks:
MyOtheHedgeFox
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 17:18

Re: New crusader

Previously I confused repel (low level) vs deflect (hi level) missiles... excuse me

Shroud is an unreliable melee damage prevention spell -that is, there's a reduction in the chance of the blow hitting the caster- , repel is a "spell that reduces the chance of projectile attacks striking the caster" (from the wiki).

So I saw natural to merge both spells into a single one Cha/Tloc useful for defense against both melee and ranged attacks -and let deflect as is Cha/Air-, unless there is a good reason to have two protective spells for different types of attack.
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1221

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 17:26

Re: New crusader

This looks like a nice addition to the warper's spellbook - but doesn't do anything to solve the problem that crusaders lack a level 1 spell :?
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1850

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 04:22

Location: Surabaya, Indonesia

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 17:48

Re: New crusader

An idea for a lv1 spell:

Strong Blow (Level 1 Charm/Hexes): Boosts melee damage. Works for only one turn; causes "exhausted" and "slow" afterwards (like Berserk, but the durations of "exhausted" and "slow" are much shorter). Cannot be used while "exhausted".

Abyss Ambulator

Posts: 1221

Joined: Thursday, 10th March 2011, 19:45

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 17:58

Re: New crusader

Another level 1 spell idea: Battle Rage, Level 1 Charms. Gives you a movement speed bonus, but only if you are moving towards a monster.

Basically, it would help you close the distance to monsters, giving them less chance to hit you with ranged attacks, making it useful for characters with no ranged attack, but unlike Swiftness would not be usable for escaping.

For this message the author Jeremiah has received thanks:
pratamawirya
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 22:05

Re: New crusader

dpeg wrote:Personally, I like Warchanter as well as Skald.

The problem with warchanter: it has a shitty abreviation.

I'm waiting for your description text for renaming. But I won't wait much more. I'll rename it so you'll have to update description ;)
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...
User avatar

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 719

Joined: Friday, 7th January 2011, 01:43

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 22:53

Re: New crusader

Wc? oh.. I see. Why not rename wanderer as Wd and warchanter as Wa ?
duvessa wrote:Christ, you can't remove anything without tavern complaining about it.
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Friday, 24th June 2011, 23:02

Re: New crusader

Roderic wrote:Wc? oh.. I see. Why not rename wanderer as Wd and warchanter as Wa ?

Too late. Now we can stop bikesheding and talk about gameplay.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1850

Joined: Monday, 20th December 2010, 04:22

Location: Surabaya, Indonesia

Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 04:40

Re: New crusader

Jeremiah wrote:Another level 1 spell idea: Battle Rage, Level 1 Charms. Gives you a movement speed bonus, but only if you are moving towards a monster.

Basically, it would help you close the distance to monsters, giving them less chance to hit you with ranged attacks, making it useful for characters with no ranged attack, but unlike Swiftness would not be usable for escaping.

I think it should give some kind of protection too while moving towards a monster. Slight increase to AC, maybe?

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 39

Joined: Thursday, 2nd June 2011, 00:19

Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 05:50

Re: New crusader

Can't say I'm too happy about the decision... your only argument was it has a weird abbreviation? :roll:
User avatar

Vestibule Violator

Posts: 1593

Joined: Thursday, 19th May 2011, 16:38

Location: Penza, Russia

Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 12:36

Re: New crusader

I must say that now I will definitely play this class more. =)
If you find any mistakes or typos in my post, feel free to PM me about it. Thanks in advance!

The Verse flows throughout Aquaria...
Through each ripple and wave...
Through every living being...
The Verse binds us all as one.

Bim

Crypt Cleanser

Posts: 700

Joined: Wednesday, 5th January 2011, 15:51

Post Saturday, 25th June 2011, 13:43

Re: New crusader

Can't say I'm too happy about the decision... your only argument was it has a weird abbreviation?

This. It's abbreviation really isn't that much of a problem, at all. I don't see this being nearly as much of a problem compared to it being practically unknown, regionally specific, and not doing anything a bard does in any other RPG. I just can't see the logic at all behind this decision.
2012 Winner of fewest proposed ideas implemented by devs.
PreviousNext

Return to Game Design Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.