Proposal: Reforms to Rings and Detrimental Items

[heresyheresy]

I have been playing Crawl since 0.16 and while it is a fun game, there are some consistently anti-fun things, primarily related to Rings and Detrimental Items, which I think if gotten rid of could improve the player experience.

Reform to rings of Evasion, Protection, and Slaying: I believe that rather than these rings having different values, there should instead merely be Rings of Evasion, Protection and Slaying which provide the same bonus as a +5 Ring of the same type. Finding a cursed, negatively valued ring in the first couple floors of the dungeon is practically a death sentence for new characters, since finding a scroll of remove curse or identify is far from certain. Low value (1 through 3) rings of these types are also useful only in the early levels, and while they function as a crutch for new characters, do not guarantee finding appropriate equipment as the player progresses further into the dungeon to replace them. Weapons found early in the dungeon can be enchanted to become stronger. Rings of Evasion, Protection, and Slaying Cannot.

Increase spawn rate of useful rings to early characters in early areas: Rings which provide resistances to energy types - Fire, Ice, Negative - and which provide elemental power - Ring of Ice and Ring of Fire - are essentially useless in the Early Dungeon, and finding them at a time when they are unusable triggers consistent disappointment. Increase the Spawn Rate of Rings which are useful to characters in the early dungeon - Rings such as Resist Poison are invaluable once the player is eventually required to venture into the Lair of Beasts, while also being useful in the early areas of the Dungeon, where fast poisonous monsters like Killer Bees and Adders can spell unavoidable doom the instant they appear on screen. See Invisible is pratically a must have for characters who want to continue their descent once monsters such as the Unseen Horror make their appearance, and would provide a more reliable way to have a chance against early-game annoyances or terrors like Orc Wizards, Sky Beasts, and Sigmund.

Remove negatively enchanted cursed items: For the same reason as negatively enchanted Rings, negatively enchanted cursed weapons and armor are antifun. They represent an early game cheap gotcha which is almost always a death sentence for a character who has yet to find more than one copy of a scroll of identify or scroll of remove curse. While +0 cursed armor and weapons are not nearly so bad, they do not represent the same threat.

In general, I believe the increased spawn rate of items with utility to early game characters, and the removal of "gotcha" items from the early game will significantly help the game's difficulty curve. Being killed by random orcs, gnolls, or dungeon critters for the hundredth time represents drudgery, rather than fun, and spontaneously generated, unidentified items which hamper, rather than help, the player do not contribute to game balance. While Potions such as Potion of Degeneration, Mutation, and Poision exist for a reason - forcing the player to identify their potions with a Scroll of Identification, and punishing players for spontaneously trying potions - Identifying one Potion identifies all others of its type. There are almost NO scrolls with detrimental effects, providing a clear message to players that they should be allowed, and even expected to try every new scroll that they find without being afraid. While wands must be identified in order to use them effectively, either few or no wands have a detrimental effect on the player, when wielded by the player. A player should absolutely not be expected to identify every piece of jewelry, and every piece of equipment which they discover in order to determine whether it is a useful tool for survival, or a trap which will kill them.

[ontoclasm]

Welcome to the forums.

Finding a cursed, negatively valued ring in the first couple floors of the dungeon is practically a death sentence for new characters, since finding a scroll of remove curse or identify is far from certain.

This is incorrect. It is quite possible, even easy, to survive such things, and id/rcurse are very common.

fast poisonous monsters like Killer Bees and Adders can spell unavoidable doom the instant they appear on screen. See Invisible is pratically a must have for characters who want to continue their descent once monsters such as the Unseen Horror make their appearance,

Both of these are incorrect. There are many, many ways to survive these monsters, and rP/sInv are just one. They're dangerous, definitely; adders and killer bees are some of the most deadly things in the game. But you don't need a ring of rP to beat them (it barely even helps, since much of their danger lies in the normal, non-poison damage they do).

negatively enchanted cursed weapons and armor are antifun. They represent an early game cheap gotcha which is almost always a death sentence for a character who has yet to find more than one copy of a scroll of identify or scroll of remove curse.

Again, incorrect. A cursed/negatively enchanted weapon can cause some problems but is easily survivable. And again, rcurse is plentiful.

In general, I believe the increased spawn rate of items with utility to early game characters, and the removal of "gotcha" items from the early game will significantly help the game's difficulty curve. Being killed by random orcs, gnolls, or dungeon critters for the hundredth time represents drudgery, rather than fun, and spontaneously generated, unidentified items which hamper, rather than help, the player do not contribute to game balance.

Many players don't die hundreds of times to those threats. The early game is difficult, sure, but many players have high win-rates and long streaks to show that it's consistently beatable.

A player should absolutely not be expected to identify every piece of jewelry, and every piece of equipment which they discover in order to determine whether it is a useful tool for survival, or a trap which will kill them.

Why not? I'm not a huge fan of the ID minigame, but insofar as it has a purpose, it's to introduce a risk and a cost to the items you own; do you spend ID scrolls on them, or use them unidentified and gamble? Regardless, as I said above, these items can make them game harder, but they're not "certain death" by any means. They only inconvenience you until you find a rcurse scroll, which will probably be very, very soon, and playing well can keep you alive even if you get stuck with them for an extremely long time.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but your descriptions of things suggest that you haven't learned how to deal with these things, rather than that they're problematic and should be removed. I'm awful at crawl and none of the items you've listed have contributed to one of my deaths in ~800 games.

[WingedEspeon]

Protip: Don't try on jewelry on without IDing it firt is you don't have a scroll of remove curse on hand. Honestly I think of ?RC as scroll of permission to put on jewellery and other blue items.

If they notice you and you can't run to stairs before they get into melee range adders can spell unavoidable doom, but this is rare. Giant geckos on D:1 can do the same thing. Of course they also have to roll well. I have had level DEGl's survive D:1 adders without consumables before.

+3 rings of slaying can be very good even into late game. Low enchantment rings of protection and evasion are not the only items that are useful earlygame that fall off later. rings of rF, rC, fire, and ice can be useful even before lair. Being able to swap in a ring that grants cold resistance against an ice beast is very helpful. A mummy is very happy to find a ring that grants rF early game because this will make random fire attacks like throw flame from orc wizards a lot less of a problem.

Also, finding a +6 ring of slaying is awesome, don't take that away.

[Jarlyk]

These early game challenges can actually make things more interesting. For instance, Unseen Horrors can be quite frightening without SInv, but there are still ways of dealing with them. One of my more memorable encounters with one was when I closed a door (trapping it in a room with me), then used Passwall to leave the room. Another good example is how early cursed *Tele rings can lead to all sorts of zany situations in the early dungeon. Granted, sometimes those situations are fatal, but it's fun when you can escape from what looked like certain death.

Weapons with negative enchantments are the least interesting of the lot, I think, mainly because their primary effect is to make the game move slower (more tabs to kill things) until you can ditch the curse. They mainly show up on the floor early on, though, so once you realize that, you can just stop picking up 'enchanted' items off the floor on D:1-D:2.

[ydeve]

Unseen horrors are very easy even without SInv (I guess unless you're an Op). Protip: there are alternatives to killing monsters.

[Tiktacy]

I agree with everything ontoclasm said aside from the portion at the end about cursed items.

I thing having cursed jewellery is just silly. If an item is cursed, it should have an effect when unequipped instead of simply reading a scroll to remove it. Remove curse is really just a no brainer disguised as something interesting, the only time curses are interesting is with ashenzari. Of course, thats another discussion entirely, I just wanted to chime in on that portion.

[Hurkyl]

id/rcurse are very common.

And again, rcurse is plentiful.

They only inconvenience you until you find a rcurse scroll, which will probably be very, very soon

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but your descriptions of things suggest that you haven't learned how to deal with these things, rather than that they're problematic and should be removed.

Granting your characterizations, I think this is the wrong conclusion: in part, a better fit would be "yes, they're problematic, but it's fine because you're given a way to remove it".

To which, of course, the natural response is that if we expect scrolls to be so plentiful that they can just remove the problem, then why are there curses?

I agree with the other sentiments expressed; they are so much of a problem that you don't risk it until the scrolls of remove curse are available.

A much more moderate tweak would be to give all players (or maybe just the warriors and zealots) a scroll of remove curse at the beginning, so that careful players can have fun too in the most frequently played part of the game.

[ontoclasm]

Granting your characterizations, I think this is the wrong conclusion: in part, a better fit would be "yes, they're problematic, but it's fine because you're given a way to remove it".

To which, of course, the natural response is that if we expect scrolls to be so plentiful that they can just remove the problem, then why are there curses?

I agree with the other sentiments expressed; they are so much of a problem that you don't risk it until the scrolls of remove curse are available.

A much more moderate tweak would be to give all players (or maybe just the warriors and zealots) a scroll of remove curse at the beginning, so that careful players can have fun too in the most frequently played part of the game.

Thanks for carefully editing out all the bits where I clearly stated "they're not dangerous." That's partly because they're easily removed and partly because they're hardly dangerous anyway.

I would agree that curses should be removed or systematically changed, but the reason is that they're irrelevant, not that they're some horrible deathtrap. Oh dear, I have a very slightly suboptimal weapon equipped for a quarter of a floor, how can I go on? There's just no impact to them, neither in the effect nor the cost of removal.

[Hurkyl]

Thanks for carefully editing out all the bits where I clearly stated "they're not dangerous." That's partly because they're easily removed and partly because they're hardly dangerous anyway.

You're welcome. It clearly emphasizes that, even from your point of view, this is not just some throwaway remark: it was something worth repeating four in six (short) paragraphs.

And that's why I said "in part"; I know it isn't the whole issue, just as I know it's not a nonissue.

Oh dear, I have a very slightly suboptimal weapon equipped for a quarter of a floor, how can I go on? There's just no impact to them, neither in the effect nor the cost of removal.

Sure, that case is irrelevant, but it's most certainly not the relevant case here.

Unless... you truly think that, say, a Warrior class stuck with a -3 malus on a starter-class weapon is "very slightly" suboptimal, or other similar disasters (e.g. a cursed launcher when you don't have the skill and ammo to use it full time). IMO such a claim is way too bold to stand without something to back it up.

[Sprucery]

Curses make the game more interesting imo. Of course, an optimal player never wields a weapon or puts on jewellery that can possibly be cursed, unless they have a scroll of remove curse. But I play for fun, and usually will wield the first glowing whip etc. because if it's electrocution, my game just became more fun. Likewise, I always wear the first amulet and two rings I find.

This means that occasionally I have to cope with cursed equipment and try to survive until I find ?RC. This is also interesting.

[Turukano]

your descriptions of things suggest that you haven't learned how to deal with these things, rather than that they're problematic and should be removed

That's my point of view as well.

The early game is difficult, sure, but many players have high win-rates and long streaks to show that it's consistently beatable.

Right.

[ontoclasm]

Unless... you truly think that, say, a Warrior class stuck with a -3 malus on a starter-class weapon is "very slightly" suboptimal, or other similar disasters (e.g. a cursed launcher when you don't have the skill and ammo to use it full time). IMO such a claim is way too bold to stand without something to back it up.

Why are you equipping such things to begin with? Fighters start with war axes, and you're trying on random slings and clubs? Why? If using a -3 [thing] would be so unbearably awful that the character is doomed just by being stuck with it for a floor or two, a +0 [thing] isn't going to be much better.

And if you end up with a -3 battleaxe or something, then yes, that's perfectly fine to use for a while. Slightly suboptimal, as I said.

[Hurkyl]

Why are you equipping such things to begin with?

Alas, I'm unwilling to risk horrible deathtraps, so I don't get to have any fun early game until I'm holding an identified scroll of remove curse. Which is precisely one of the problems that the OP wants to fix.

Fighters start with war axes, and you're trying on random slings and clubs? Why?

Because slinging bullets is a lot better than throwing stones (or charging into melee). Uncursed blowguns are awesome. I'm not trying on clubs, but my Hunter would be very happy if that glowing dagger happened to be +1 dagger of electrocution, but I'm not going to get to enjoy it because risking a horrible deathrap of a cursed -3 dagger is way too much.

If using a -3 [thing] would be so unbearably awful that the character is doomed just by being stuck with it for a floor or two, a +0 [thing] isn't going to be much better.

Yes, it really is.

Sure, -3 isn't crippling on a big weapon when fighting against enemies that aren't evading your attacks, but that case isn't the whole story.

And if you end up with a -3 battleaxe or something, then yes, that's perfectly fine to use for a while. Slightly suboptimal, as I said.

Then you have a strange definition of "slightly".

[Shard1697]

Why are you equipping such things to begin with?

Uncursed blowguns are awesome.

Yes, they are, and having early slings can be nice to. You know that monsters switch to melee once you get close to them, right? So if you get close to an enemy and he doesn't switch from his launcher, it's cursed(and it won't be labeled "uncursed").

Then you have a strange definition of "slightly".

Does he? It's not really that big a deal.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

So funny to see people make a big deal out of -4 slay on good GDA, then this.

Why are you equipping such things to begin with?

Uncursed blowguns are awesome.

Yes, they are, and having early slings can be nice to. You know that monsters switch to melee once you get close to them, right? So if you get close to an enemy and he doesn't switch from his launcher, it's cursed(and it won't be labeled "uncursed").

You may not want to risk seeing what melee weapon the monster switches to, and blowguns can be found on the ground, but yes that's a trick that works, now please let's stop derailing with eccentric advice.

[Shard1697]

I don't think that's really eccentric, that's part of "don't wield launchers that don't say uncursed"

For the record, I'd actually be fine with a loss of curses on mundane equipment, leaving only 'glowing/runed' stuff with the chance to be cursed. That way the gamble feels more significant.

[WingedEspeon]

For the record, I'd actually be fine with a loss of curses on mundane equipment, leaving only 'glowing/runed' stuff with the chance to be cursed. That way the gamble feels more significant.

Please yes. or at bare minimum make sure that they are +0 and cursed.