The Tavern

The crimson imp is probably the biggest pain in the ass in the whole dungeon, not just due to their hight EV and almost instant regeneration, but also due to their blinking which in many situations makes it impossible to tabstomp them. At the time you encounter them, a lucky early elec dagger or enchanted high damage weapon is basically required to kill them, otherwise the fights draw out for minutes, and half of it is walking around manually only to have them blink after you get the first miss in.

At the same time, they're not even a threat in the slightest - they do almost no damage, have no dangerous abilities and blink so often that you can just run away from them. If you do so, of course, the procedure is repeated several times per dungeon level, making it more reasonable to skip it not because of a threat to the char but because of a threat to the player's nerves.

So what gives? For a game whose "best practice" guidelines seem to revolve around not allowing the player to frustrate themselves, you sure put a lot of thought into doing that yourself.

they should spawn with weapons imo

That wouldn't change the situation in the slightest, though - with their blinking, they're never getting into melee range if the player doesn't want them to. Marginally more dangerous if you count bad luck, but still purely an annoyance.

Actually crimson imps are reasonably dangerous if they have a good weapon, especially a ranged one. In Good Old Days (tm) they'd grab stuff like a branded short blade, Sigmund's scythe or a bow with some arrows from a centaur you killed, and be a proper problem.

If you can't kill the imp easily, take it upstairs with you, let it blink away and go back down.

But they are so cute!

They shout, they present the concept of immunity for flame elementalists and thus the need to walk away or pick up a weapon, they also introduced (before worm change) the idea of rapidly regenerating enemies like trolls/hydras.

@OP play more Octopodes, even a lvl1 no-UC Op can kill an imp no problem. Its rigth in their name, OP species is OP!

Imps are a bad enemy because they strongly encourage a cheesy tactic (parking them upstairs). Making them stronger by giving them weapons will only make that situation worse. I would support removing them outside the summon imp spell.

Phantoms are somehow less annoying, but if they were removed I would not be upset. Blink frogs are ok (including lone blink frogs like Prince Ribbit) because they are fast, so the parking tactic doesn't work as well.

Surely their purpose is to teach the player that you don't need to kill everything

Jeremiah wrote:Surely their purpose is to teach the player that you don't need to kill everything

/thread tbh.

I was on board with removing them, and still am somewhat, but Jeremiah is right that imps do a good job of showing that not everything needs to be killed.

Surely bushes and uniques do that much better than crimson imps do. Especially since every character that encounters crimson imps CAN kill them by just wielding a large weapon and attacking until they get lucky.
Every undead monster in the game already introduces the concept of immunity.
Quasits and Grinder already introduce the concept of demonic holiness.
Imps and phantoms are pretty superfluous.

Sar wrote:Actually crimson imps are reasonably dangerous if they have a good weapon, especially a ranged one. In Good Old Days (tm) they'd grab stuff like a branded short blade, Sigmund's scythe or a bow with some arrows from a centaur you killed, and be a proper problem.

I can't speak for everyone else, but personally, I don't miss having to haul every monster's equipment into a corner after I kill it.

duvessa wrote:Surely bushes and uniques do that much better than crimson imps do.

Bushes? Really?! Come on minmay, pull it together.

Unique's don't really give that impression to new players, at least it didn't for me. Uniques for newer players seem to represent a challenge you need to facee at that point and will be rewarded for in terms of hefty experience for your level, while imps are annoying and don't need to be killed at all and therefore do a better job at communicating to the player that not all enemies need to be killed.

They both do the same job but on a different level.

...Am I the only person in this thread other than the OP who realizes that crimson imps do, in fact, give XP and are therefore useful to kill? A crimson imp is worth more XP than Ijyb, Jessica, Terence, or Robin, and much lower risk to kill.

duvessa wrote:Crimson imps give a lot of exp and are pretty low risk to kill.

I was not aware they gave that much experience, that certainly makes the point I was making less effective. With that said, that doesn't diminish the value they have for teaching newer players that not all monsters need to be killed since if you are new then odds are you won't be aware how much experience they give. Perhaps the issue with them is that they give experience at all? Maybe it would be better to lower it so players don't feel to need to kill them for the experience.

Also, they are poison *resistant*, not poison *immune*, hint, hint.

I remember long ago, you head down some stairs and see an imp and between you there is this wand sitting on the floor... and you know he is gonna get to it first.

I don't know this is true, but I assumed as you fought the imp, with it constantly shouting invective at you, that other critters nearby heard it.

Sar wrote:Actually crimson imps are reasonably dangerous if they have a good weapon, especially a ranged one. In Good Old Days (tm) they'd grab stuff like a branded short blade, Sigmund's scythe or a bow with some arrows from a centaur you killed, and be a proper problem.

Back in the day I ran into one that had grabbed some storm dragon armour. Took me ~30 mins real time and all of my available food to kill it after i pulled it upstairs. Good times.

Ceann wrote:I remember long ago, you head down some stairs and see an imp and between you there is this wand sitting on the floor... and you know he is gonna get to it first.

All you needed to do in this situation was go up the stairs, press . a few times, and then go back down. The imp would have moved past the wand without picking it up.

Personally, I think worms do a better job teaching the player that not every enemy needs to be killed. For a lot of characters, it is dangerous to attempt to kill a worm but trivial to ignore it. That's the ideal scenario to show the player that some enemies are best ignored. I think quite possibly every player who has ever played the game has had this experience: they try to fight a worm in melee combat on D2 (it's a worm, how hard can it be?), discover that the worm actually hits quite hard and has a decent amount of health, and end up running away, only to discover that running away from the worm is incredibly easy and it poses no threat whatsoever as long as you don't try to kill it in a fist-fight. That experience is fantastic for teaching you that some enemies aren't worth the risk of fighting.

Now, what experience do new players have with imps? They find and imp, they hit tab for what feels like an unreasonable amount of time chasing the imp around, and eventually they get lucky and kill it, and get a bunch of experience. At no point in the process are they in any danger of dying. Does this teach them that they should have ignored the imp? Not really, no.

Phantoms teach the lesson slightly better, because some characters do encounter phantoms while they still pose a threat to someone who tries to kill them in melee.

If anything, worms teach players the proper use of auts, kiting and reseting fights until you get better damage rolls. I dont think players usually ignore worms.

Is education a good reason for a monster to exist? If you really need a specially-designed monster to teach a concept then that concept can't be very important.

phloomp wrote:Is education a good reason for a monster to exist? If you really need a specially-designed monster to teach a concept then that concept can't be very important.

While you don't need a specially-designed monster to teach these concepts, it sure helps a newbie to be able to learn them before facing actually dangerous monsters that use the same concept. For example, fighting Gastronok would be a lot harder for a new player if they'd never fought worms before. While they'll still likely die to him the first time, being aware of how to fight different types of monsters changes their response from "this game has lots of random stuff that's invincible" to "that monster is scary, maybe I can try this alternate approach next time."

Yes, I think education is a decent purpose. There's your first "monster that can be invisible", "low level constrictor", and some more. On some r.g.r.m posting someone once said that imps are a good way to check whether you melee power is decent.

And there's a general design principle that you introduce mechanics first, then later you use those mechanics to create challenges. This goes a long way to making a game feel 'fair'.

Games that violate this principle badly tend feels cheap and spoilery. While this introduces difficulty, it's of a very artificial and superficial kind.

dynast wrote:If anything, worms teach players the proper use of auts, kiting and reseting fights until you get better damage rolls. I dont think players usually ignore worms.

Mostly what they taught me is that with a spear you can hit a neo-otyugh ... or whatever else needs to be at the end of a ten foot pole.

Worse, it looks to me like killing worms under controlled circumstances is optimal play, since they can easily lead to fatal circumstances if you are trying to withdraw down a corridor only to find a worm in your way.

Teaching people to kite slow things with spears instead of tabbing everything is also good you know...

I think worms and imps are fine, and teach different lessons. Worms teach you how to deal with monsters that are quite dangerous in melee; a lot of the same lessons apply to hydras later (if you have mobility tools). Imps teach elemental users to avoid and ignore threats they can't fight. That's VMs, necromancers and FEs. Ice Beasts also teach that to other elementalists.

byrel wrote:Imps teach elemental users to avoid and ignore threats they can't fight. That's VMs, necromancers and FEs.

The problem is, they don't. As duvessa pointed out, anyone can just grab a nearby battleaxe and eventually squash them, and the XP they give usually makes the tedium worthwhile. Worms work well, since their lesson is "some monsters can squash you like a bug in melee." The lesson for imps seems to be "some monsters are excessively tedious to kill, but will eventually go down and give you a ton of XP" - not a good lesson, and not a good design. Ice beasts are a lot better, since if you can't kill them quickly, they are quite deadly.

Just take away their blink ability, that is the core of their annoyance and serves no purpose in education, other than teaching players how to park blinking monsters up the stairs, which is tedious and frankly a bit cheesy (blinking monsters that get dropped like that should track you back down the stairs)

Following the thought train of using weaker minions as educational tools, why not give the crimson imp some sort of aoe fire spell? Nothing too significant, but enough that it's dangerous when ignored. It's a tactic that isn't really introduced in the early game until you reach the lair, and even then only if you get yakbasilisks. Introducing new players to a mob that denies tiles from use is both fun, and educational, and it provides a unique but manageable threat that isn't currently available on the earlier floors. I would argue that their regeneration would need to be nerfed (or even removed) for this to be "balanced," but their high EV pairs well with this kind of tactic.

I say go right ahead and give low-level demons an actually dangerous spell, and move them a little deeper in level generation if need be. Crimson imps can cast Sticky Flame. The player spell need not match any monster that the player can actually fight, since player-summoned monsters that the player uses to kill thing serve a completely different purpose than enemy monsters that the player attempts to kill.

The Tavern

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