Swap Haste and Ring of Flames

[bcadren]

Minor suggestion; bump Haste up to level 7; bump Ring of Flames down to level 6.

UNLIMITED Haste should be a little harder to attain to increase the value of /Haste and !Haste. (Maybe even one should be removed; but for now let's just try raising the spell's level).

Ring of Flames is never really used for its primary use; which is putting flame clouds everywhere and that primary use should be similar level to Freezing Cloud (Level 6); but the targeting is harder to use practically, which makes up for it being fewer spell schools. The innate enhancer is nice; but unless your character has a LOT of excess MP (or Vehumet) you're not going to use RoF AND Haste...and on a lot of characters RoF is beaten by a level 3 (Ozocubu's Armour).

In short:
Haste -> Level 7 Charms.
Ring of Flames -> Level 6 Charms/Fire

[Tiktacy]

I don't think haste should be level 7. It might be a very powerful spell, but increasing it to 7 would sort of make charms a lot less consistent with the effectiveness of other magic schools. Most schools of magic really start picking up in terms of long term power around level 5 or 6, haste being charms only really good mid-level spell. Other schools of magic have things like invisibility, freezing cloud, shadow creatures, simulacrum, and so on. I would be very annoyed if the devs were to move haste from 6 to 7. Haste is THE charms spell, it would be like if they raise fireball from level 5 to 6, that doesn't improve anything it just makes the spell harder to get and makes you rely on your other resources for longer.

I suggest an alternative. Instead of swapping the levels, simply remove ring of flames from the charms school of magic. This never really made sense to begin with in my mind, and having it be only fire would be it a lot more appealing and more likely to be used in the average game.

[duvessa]

haste spell is already rarely worth learning prior to extended if you have a wand of hasting
ring of flames should indeed be level 6 though, it is pretty bad right now

[dynast]

These 2 are probably the most problematic spells in the game. Every other spell offers a solid advantage to the player, like ozo's, phase shift, deflect missiles, but these effects are focused on dealing with one aspect of damage, while haste is your "make enemies trivial" spell, that works on every situation and the only way monsters can deal with it is by breathing dispelling energy. Its downside? a little glowing. Meanwhile RoF is the only spell with a actual downside(RC--) Which immediately makes it unapealling.

I would rather remove haste from the spellbook AND the wand and leave it only on potions. Or, if you want to go the other way, add a "Might" spell instead.

[Tiktacy]

haste spell is already rarely worth learning prior to extended if you have a wand of hasting
ring of flames should indeed be level 6 though, it is pretty bad right now

I would support removing wand of hasting in favor of encouraging players to learn the spell. After all, charms are very lack luster in there current form.

I support changing ring of flames to level 6, but more than anything I think removing it from the charms school will at least make it worth using if you already have a lot of Fire exp.

[o_O]

Haste speed should depend on spell power. ! & / haste retain relavence unless you can cast it at full power.

Ring of flames at level 6 seems ok. It's a fun spell but doesnt see much use, and isn't clearly stronger then freezing cloud (unless you need an rF+), although I don't know how their damage outputs compare.

[Jeremiah]

Also, Ring of Flames should be supported by Vehumet.

[tabstorm]

Minor suggestion; bump Haste up to level 7; bump Ring of Flames down to level 6.

UNLIMITED Haste should be a little harder to attain to increase the value of /Haste and !Haste. (Maybe even one should be removed; but for now let's just try raising the spell's level).

Ring of Flames is never really used for its primary use; which is putting flame clouds everywhere and that primary use should be similar level to Freezing Cloud (Level 6); but the targeting is harder to use practically, which makes up for it being fewer spell schools. The innate enhancer is nice; but unless your character has a LOT of excess MP (or Vehumet) you're not going to use RoF AND Haste...and on a lot of characters RoF is beaten by a level 3 (Ozocubu's Armour).

In short:
Haste -> Level 7 Charms.
Ring of Flames -> Level 6 Charms/Fire

1. Ring of Flames primary use is as an enhancer, not as a way to place flame clouds.
2. Spell haste isn't overpowered.

I do think RoF is too high level though. Should be 6 or even 5.

[bcadren]

1. Ring of Flames primary use is as an enhancer, not as a way to place flame clouds.

I think it's both.
1. Leaving a trail of fire clouds while walking away can be an effective and MP efficient way of getting rid of a a group of melee threat without needing to confront them or making much noise...like if you had this spell before death yaks. And RoF, Conjure Flame, Meph + Ignite Poison and Freezing Cloud all have the same damage potential, per cloud.
2. While the enhancer. Well spellpower x1.5 isn't damage x1.5 ...if it was you'd need to cast 3-4 {FBalls B. Fires} or 2 firestorms for the cost to be worth it.
3. Using it for the resist could be understandable if you had no source of rF or wanted to use your slots for something else. (Like as a Felid going into Gehenna, for example).

[HardboiledGargoyle]

One would think that getting RoF on a character that relies on Firestorm would be a no-brainer, but those characters usually ignore RoF instead. Why does this happen?

[Sar]

RoF is also really rare, also it has the usual Charms problem (you have to recast it), and, unlike other charms, it messes with your resists so you might think it's a good idea to use it with an IDA on some hybrid-y char and have both good defences and rF, but forget to recast it once, round a corner into some ice giants and you'll reconsider it.

[bcadren]

RoF is also really rare, also it has the usual Charms problem (you have to recast it), and, unlike other charms, it messes with your resists so you might think it's a good idea to use it with an IDA on some hybrid-y char and have both good defences and rF, but forget to recast it once, round a corner into some ice giants and you'll reconsider it.

We could remove the rC--, it's not like it needs it for defensive purposes...I mean DRAGON FORM only has rC-, not --.

[Sar]

I think giving rC-- but also evaporating most ranged cold attacks (it really should do something vs. icicles) is a cute mechanic.

[duvessa]

One would think that getting RoF on a character that relies on Firestorm would be a no-brainer, but those characters usually ignore RoF instead. Why does this happen?

Because RoF isn't a no-brainer, it's just a bad spell.

Also the rC-- doesn't matter very much since you can just, y'know, not cast it around things with cold attacks.

Sar, flame clouds only get rid of BEAM_COLD projectiles. That's pretty much just throw frost, bolt of cold, and the dragon breaths that are basically identical to bolt of cold. It no longer affects arrows of frost.

[Sar]

Well that sucks.

[tabstorm]

1. Ring of Flames primary use is as an enhancer, not as a way to place flame clouds.

I think it's both.
1. Leaving a trail of fire clouds while walking away can be an effective and MP efficient way of getting rid of a a group of melee threat without needing to confront them or making much noise...like if you had this spell before death yaks. And RoF, Conjure Flame, Meph + Ignite Poison and Freezing Cloud all have the same damage potential, per cloud.
2. While the enhancer. Well spellpower x1.5 isn't damage x1.5 ...if it was you'd need to cast 3-4 {FBalls B. Fires} or 2 firestorms for the cost to be worth it.
3. Using it for the resist could be understandable if you had no source of rF or wanted to use your slots for something else. (Like as a Felid going into Gehenna, for example).

Trust me, it's just used for the enhancer.

[Sar]

personally I used it because it looks really cool

[Ceann]

I would rather remove haste from the spellbook AND the wand and leave it only on potions. Or, if you want to go the other way, add a "Might" spell instead.

Need wand for Mu reasons.

[typhen]

I strongly support any of the proposed buffs to RoF, as it is really fun but really hard to justify using it.

Dropping Charms seems ideal for the reasons stated above; heck, even making it conj/fire would be a buff.

[kroki]

even if it was moved to lv5 AND fire only i dont think it would suddenly see much more use


its just a shit spell

[Tiktacy]

even if it was moved to lv5 AND fire only i dont think it would suddenly see much more use


its just a shit spell

You can kill stronger enemies with it(like hydra's or orc warlords) by kiting them using RoF, I did use it once on a DEFe and it wasn't what you would call "weak." Really the main issue with the spell is that its put way too far out of reach for most players, the only reason I used it on my DEFe was because I managed to get haste very early on.

[Sar]

wow, you can kill Lair/Orc native melee only speed 10 enemies with a level 7 dual school spell? that's amazing!

[Tiktacy]

that's really not that impressive!

Well, I mostly used it as an enhancer that fends off popcorn since I was a deep elf and didn't have blink yet. It was merely an example of how it can be useful in the right context, just not when its so out of reach for nost players.

I never once had an issue with the minus to cold resistence, just didnt use it when I knew there could be dangerous enemies with cold attacks.

[Quazifuji]

I think the surrounding flame clouds is the cool part of the spell, not the resists or the enhancer. It seems like the problem is that by the time any character can actually cast it the enhancer's the only part that's still useful. So I'd be in favor of making changes that make the spell useful for the flame clouds, whatever the entails. Just lowering the level so it can be obtained earlier might help, but I also wouldn't mind seeing the resists or enhancer removed or changed if it meant the clouds could be buffed or the spell could be made even more accessible.

[lethediver]

Fully agree with OP. Haste is the ultimate charms spell and RoF is underpowered for its spell level.

[HardboiledGargoyle]

even if it was moved to lv5 AND fire only i dont think it would suddenly see much more use


its just a shit spell

conjure flame is a 2-school lv3 spell and is very useful throughout the early game and into the middle game, so why wouldn't a lv5 single school spell that is conjure flame +++ see no use? FR, get rid of the fire enhancers and focus on the ring of flames part of RoF.

[duvessa]

I think the surrounding flame clouds is the cool part of the spell, not the resists or the enhancer. It seems like the problem is that by the time any character can actually cast it the enhancer's the only part that's still useful. So I'd be in favor of making changes that make the spell useful for the flame clouds, whatever the entails. Just lowering the level so it can be obtained earlier might help, but I also wouldn't mind seeing the resists or enhancer removed or changed if it meant the clouds could be buffed or the spell could be made even more accessible.

there are already tons of cloud spells; there are even three other spells that make flame clouds right now (conjure flame, inner flame, fire storm), even if only the first one is actually any good. I don't love the enhancer from a design perspective, but the spell definitely needs something more than clouds and inconsequential resistances to have enough reason to exist, unless you are going to remove conjure flame and probably some other cloud spells. Also consider that the resistance charms (resist poison, insulate, see invisible) were all removed.

[zxc23]

I saw elliptic using Ring of Flames in Snake:5 to kill nagas using the flame clouds. It looked very tedious and the char was quite weak.

[typhen]

Ring of Flames is a really interesting, fun spell concept (specifically: the part that makes flame clouds, not the part that gives you the effect of wearing a ring). It is pretty distinct from other spells, and can potentially change your combat tactics.

One of the main things that makes the spell un-fun is that it's really weak (for the cost of learning and casting it).

But lots of spells don't substantially change your combat tactics. Throw Icicle vs Iron Bolt vs Poison Arrow....

Some interesting tactical effects of Ring of Flames:
- clearing other clouds (can it do this? I'm not sure)
- everything that Conjure Flame can do - block corridors from weak enemies, constant damage on strong or mindless enemies, block ice beams, and generate steam... but this spell can only do it at melee range
- ability to deal damage while fleeing, then when backed into a corner, turn and fight
- deal lots of additional melee damage, especially for hydra form or axe wielders
- blinking during combat adds another element (leaving clouds behind)

(I understand that the best players never fight more than one enemy at a time. This spell is probably useless to those players no matter how we change it, but that's ok! As long as the spell is an interesting decision for a lot of players...)

Unlike most area damage spells, it allows you to hit creatures without ever hitting yourself. but it's very hard to use with allies, unless they are fire-immune.

It also makes you look and feel amazingly powerful!

Here's some hypothetical concepts for how the above benefits of the spell could be retained while making it a more effective spell. (They are intended to be overpowered rather than underpowered; we can scale their power if they turn out to be interesting ideas):

1) Make it level 4, fire/charms. Remove the resists and the spellpower enhancer. Duration is 1-8 turns depending on spellpower.

2) Make it level 7, Fire/Transmutation: Efreet Form. This solves the issue of it being competitive with Haste.

3) Make it a potion effect.

4) Make it a potion effect, but it also gives the opposite of a !resistance for the duration.

5) Make it a potion, but it also affects your own square.

6) Make it a monster spell. (monster ai wouldn't be good at this, so give it to a unique, with the flavour / mechanic that the unique doesn't care about killing allies, benefits from it somehow, or has fire-immune allies)

7) Make it a god (oops, someone already did)

[HardboiledGargoyle]

2) is like old dragon form, 3-5) is like old immolation, but continuous, and 6) is Asmodeus.

[duvessa]

- clearing other clouds (can it do this? I'm not sure)

it can't

- ability to deal damage while fleeing, then when backed into a corner, turn and fight

i'm the player, not a yak that got hit by a scroll of fear

- blinking during combat adds another element (leaving clouds behind)

i'm pretty sure this isn't useful, ever

2) Make it level 7, Fire/Transmutation: Efreet Form. This solves the issue of it being competitive with Haste.

...how does making the spell harder to cast solve that at all?

6) Make it a monster spell. (monster ai wouldn't be good at this, so give it to a unique, with the flavour / mechanic that the unique doesn't care about killing allies, benefits from it somehow, or has fire-immune allies)

asmodeus already has it

[dpeg]

Lowering the level would be fine, in my opinion. RoF is one of the spells where they should be an equilibrium (I am not as convinced for Haste, for example).

[o_O]

making the clouds spread out based on terrain (like freezing cloud) would help, then you could still hit more then 1 or 2 enemies when standing in a hallway like a proper crawler.